I am intending to go to a Spiritualist Church. - Page 3

Darat · 9th October 2019, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I have been assured by friends who are lawyers with the Family Court that it is not legal to record someone without their knowledge.

It was one of those things that I heard many years ago, forgot the source of, and always assumed was true, that it was legal to record a conversation between two people as long as at least one of them was aware that it was happening. I casually mentioned this while in my lawyer friends' company once and they jumped straight down my throat.

Of course, this applies to my local jurisdiction. You should check.

It's obviously a tad more complicated , public and private places come into it, reason for recording.

P.J. Denyer · 9th October 2019, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Recording a conversation in secret is not a criminal offence and is not prohibited in the UK. As long as the recording is for personal use you don't need to obtain consent or let the other person know. Journalists often record conversations in secret that they then publish without facing any legal problems.

Things change if the matter is addressed with a claim for damages or if the recordings have been shared without the consent of the participants. Even worse, if the recording is sold to third parties or released in public without the consent of the participants then this could be considered a criminal offence.

From here.

Don't know where wasapi hails from but I suspect it's not the UK.

IANAL

Also this isn't a private conversation, it is either a meeting open to the public or a performance. Most laws against recording relate to privacy or copyright laws. The former shouldn't apply as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public, the second would presumably depend on if there are any rules against recording posted as a condition of entry. As your quote says, the purpose of taking the recording is also significant, making the recording as an aide memoir, even if you'll later transcribe and quote parts non professionally and without identifying participants is very different to releasing the recording publically, releasing it professionally in any context, using it to identify the participants or using it in a court case.

/IANAL

bluesjnr · 9th October 2019, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

IANAL

Also this isn't a private conversation, it is either a meeting open to the public or a performance. Most laws against recording relate to privacy or copyright laws. The former shouldn't apply as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public, the second would presumably depend on if there are any rules against recording posted as a condition of entry. As your quote says, the purpose of taking the recording is also significant, making the recording as an aide memoir, even if you'll later transcribe and quote parts non professionally and without identifying participants is very different to releasing the recording publically, releasing it professionally in any context, using it to identify the participants or using it in a court case.

/IANAL

Good point.. this is not a private conversation so what is it?

Is it a performance? If so, then it get very complicated and the medium would have to identify the session as such to be protected, as I understand it. Also, IANAL.

P.J. Denyer · 9th October 2019, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Good point.. this is not a private conversation so what is it?

Is it a performance? If so, then it get very complicated and the medium would have to identify the session as such to be protected, as I understand it. Also, IANAL.

The woo slinger has to walk a tightrope between "believe me and give me respect/donations/love offerings/fees" and "yes, but I don't take any responsibility if you actually take my advice/treatment/borrow against credit cards in the expectation that God will pay it back tenfold and it all goes Pete Tong on you".

sackett · 9th October 2019, 08:53 AM

At the church, go right up to the medium and ask if you can record the proceedings.

And make a note of the answer you get.

TragicMonkey · 9th October 2019, 09:56 AM

If one is planning to flip tables and expose fraud and do hard hitting Skeptical Investigation wouldn't it be sensible to just attend the first time peaceably, keeping quiet and not making waves? That way one could gather data from observation before attempting anything on a subsequent visit.

P.J. Denyer · 9th October 2019, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

If one is planning to flip tables and expose fraud and do hard hitting Skeptical Investigation wouldn't it be sensible to just attend the first time peaceably, keeping quiet and not making waves? That way one could gather data from observation before attempting anything on a subsequent visit.

Whatever reason I went I think I'd record it, it would be interesting afterwards to note my impressions and then go back to the recording and see how well they matched what happened (miss to hit ratio, specifics vs generalisations). It would also give me an opportunity to see what information I might have let slip in conversation to other attendees without really thinking about it and if I went back again and that information, or other information that could be reasonably easily gained as a result of knowing that information was given back to me in a message I wouldn't spend the rest of my life wondering about it. No need to march up on stage and denounce the culprits, but you'd know for yourself.

JayUtah · 9th October 2019, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

At the church, go right up to the medium and ask if you can record the proceedings.

As a non-lawyer, and thus insufficiently informed regarding the specific legal obligations that apply, I would certainly err on the side of explicit, fully-informed consent of all relevant parties. Or consult with an appropriately qualified lawyer, obviously.

In my mind that conflicts inherently with the desire here to obtain unbiased data. From a science standpoint, we would want the medium to behave in a typical manner, ideally over a number of trials since we expect a degree of variation in the accuracy of the prediction from trial. Whether the medium honestly believes in their ability or not, the scientist can imagine various ways in which the performance will be altered by knowing that an objective record is being kept and will be reviewed later for accuracy.

Drawing all the reasonable inferences in the medium's favor, we propose that the medium believes in a legitimate ability. But we also acknowledge that some judgment operates on the part of the medium. We presume that the medium desires a favorable hit rate. This creates the incentive for omitting a reading that the medium believes is ambiguous and will be recorded, whereas if only a human-memory record of the ambiguous reading will survive, the medium might take a chance and offer it.

That's just one example. It seams reasonable on its face to propose that knowing a session will be objectively recorded might alter the performance, and thus taint the data. The best data from a scientific standpoint is probably not ethical to obtain from a legal standpoint.

sackett · 9th October 2019, 11:57 AM

Now Jay, you know perfectly well that I know perfectly well that the charlatan-in-charge knows perfectly well that recording her schtick would knock the whole playhouse down.

I did but jest! as the drunken lout exclaims after beaning Tom Jones with the pewter tankard.

arthwollipot · 9th October 2019, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

It's obviously a tad more complicated , public and private places come into it, reason for recording.

They were very clear. Secretly recording a conversation is not on.

And remember, I was talking to Family Court lawyers. They have seen this before, and checked the legislation. I trust their word. But as I said, this applies to my jurisdiction. Other places will have different legalities.

angrysoba · 9th October 2019, 07:32 PM

I would at least be a bit wary that if this is the kind of place where they exploit the bereaved by claiming messages from the beyond that you make sure that you can trust your friend not to be trying to maneuver you into some kind of trap or to have passed on information about your own personal tragedies.

P.J. Denyer · 10th October 2019, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

They were very clear. Secretly recording a conversation is not on.

And remember, I was talking to Family Court lawyers. They have seen this before, and checked the legislation. I trust their word. But as I said, this applies to my jurisdiction. Other places will have different legalities.

But a meeting, open to the public, isn't a conversation and the end point isn't evidence to use in court, the expectation of privacy is very different.

Pixel42 · 10th October 2019, 03:10 AM

The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions.

TragicMonkey · 10th October 2019, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions.

I'm getting an impression of a place near or associated with water...and the letter M, or N, or L. Is there anyone here who has lost a great-grandparent? A male or female great-grandparent, possibly old?

Lothian · 10th October 2019, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I'm getting an impression of a place near or associated with water...and the letter M, or N, or L. Is there anyone here who has lost a great-grandparent? A male or female great-grandparent, possibly old?

It is wrong to assume it is all cold reading. Most is hot reading.

TragicMonkey · 10th October 2019, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

It is wrong to assume it is all cold reading. Most is hot reading.

You've eaten a meal in the last two days, I can sense it! And it was...something edible! Foodstuffs!

Lothian · 10th October 2019, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

You've eaten a meal in the last two days, I can sense it! And it was...something edible! Foodstuffs!

Ooo it is as if my Aunt Elsie, died, 82 heart attack, used to call me "poppet", had a dog called Charlie and liked dirty Limericks was with us now. Dont suppose she has another message for me.

TragicMonkey · 10th October 2019, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Ooo it is as if my Aunt Elsie, died, 82 heart attack, used to call me "poppet", had a dog called Charlie and liked dirty Limericks was with us now. Dont suppose she has another message for me.

She does! She wants you to refresh yourself with the smooth taste of an ice-cold Dr Pepper!

A lot of people resort to product placement in the afterlife, rent in heaven is astronomical.

arthwollipot · 10th October 2019, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions.

Yes, it is.

EHocking · 10th October 2019, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

But a meeting, open to the public, isn't a conversation and the end point isn't evidence to use in court, the expectation of privacy is very different.

But as it is on private property, different rules apply.

wasapi · 11th October 2019, 09:33 AM

The past few days I have been doing deeper research on the church. It turns out that it is run by the people from Berkley Psychic Institute, which I am already familiar with.

Why they are allowed to continues has been a mystery to me for many years. Blatant money scam artists, with a woman named Minister Bostwick (I may have the name not quite right). She is a scam artist who runs a church that "teaches" you to be psychic.

When people balk at the price, they are told they must not be psychic, or else they would know what a good investment it is.

Several years ago, out of curiosity, I attended a free demonstration by the institute, where people were encouraged to pay the price to "learn to be psychic". Her students demonstrated how they were in tune with the "vibes" on the "other side". With eyes closed, they swatted away "negative spirits trying to enter. It looked like people swatting invisible flies. I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick.

However, in my research I learned that there is a clothes shop near by, and every 3rd Thursday they have a "psychic" who comes and gives "readings" to those attending. So, next Thursday, the 17th, I will be there.

Thor 2 · 11th October 2019, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by wasapi

The past few days I have been doing deeper research on the church. It turns out that it is run by the people from Berkley Psychic Institute, which I am already familiar with.

Why they are allowed to continues has been a mystery to me for many years. Blatant money scam artists, with a woman named Minister Bostwick (I may have the name not quite right). She is a scam artist who runs a church that "teaches" you to be psychic.

When people balk at the price, they are told they must not be psychic, or else they would know what a good investment it is.

Several years ago, out of curiosity, I attended a free demonstration by the institute, where people were encouraged to pay the price to "learn to be psychic". Her students demonstrated how they were in tune with the "vibes" on the "other side". With eyes closed, they swatted away "negative spirits trying to enter. It looked like people swatting invisible flies. I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick.

However, in my research I learned that there is a clothes shop near by, and every 3rd Thursday they have a "psychic" who comes and gives "readings" to those attending. So, next Thursday, the 17th, I will be there.

Hence the need for a handkerchief to cover your face.

Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this.

Tanalia · 11th October 2019, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this.

The usual "explanation" would be that the physical motion helps beginners focus their mental energies. More advanced practitioners, a few ~~hundred or thousand dollars~~ lessons later would be able to do it by merely concentrating...

wasapi · 11th October 2019, 03:41 PM

Bostwick explained that because they were "psychics", (now that they had payed her an outrageous amount of money to learn to be one!), they had the ability to see "auras" and spirits, which she describes as "translucent entities".
Later, I was given a "reading" after the demonstration. He started by telling me my grandmother was there and that I had a religious item, jewelry she gave me that I treasured, because she was such "a devout woman of God".

My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure.

It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.

Trebuchet · 11th October 2019, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by wasapi

My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure.

It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.

Which experience, Bostwick or being a floozy like your grandmother?

wasapi · 11th October 2019, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Which experience, Bostwick or being a floozy like your grandmother?

Bostwick!

It was kind of cool having a non religious grandma,(a closeted atheist) who died a hussy, chasing old guys in the rest-home, (which she was often in trouble for), where she died in her 90's.

Her I'm kind of proud of.

Apathia · 11th October 2019, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by wasapi

I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick.

sackett · 11th October 2019, 07:16 PM

They do say (they would) that there's a lot of action after lights out in ye old folks' home. I quite look forward to it.

"I'm getting a 3. And a W. Three-what? Three-way?! Omigod! Hey, you old crock, stop that! That nurse's aide could be your grand daughter! Now I'm getting an obscene cackle!

"From the back of the church? Blasphemy!

"Wow. Lookit him go. Old age has changed since my day. Hmm."

The Common Potato · 11th October 2019, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

That was a very good TV show. Randi got into Russia before anyone knew who he was. Much humour as he debunked a series of frauds. Though, in the case of Ted Bundy, I suppose the accuracy of the reading is a matter of perspective.

I entered randi russian women into Google and ...

Pixel42 · 12th October 2019, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by wasapi

Bostwick explained that because they were "psychics", (now that they had payed her an outrageous amount of money to learn to be one!), they had the ability to see "auras" and spirits, which she describes as "translucent entities".
Later, I was given a "reading" after the demonstration. He started by telling me my grandmother was there and that I had a religious item, jewelry she gave me that I treasured, because she was such "a devout woman of God".

My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure.

It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.

It's great when the most likely guess (which is what a cold reader always starts their fishing with) is as 100% wrong as that, it really makes it clear that's what they're doing. They look at expressions and body language to let them know if they're on the right track, of course, you must have a good poker face for this medium to have continued down the wrong one.

In one of Randi's TV shows he filmed a medium who started off by telling a young man who'd just lost his mother something which from his confused response was completely wrong; she turned on a sixpence and added something like "which was so unlike her, of course".

Wudang · 14th October 2019, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Hence the need for a handkerchief to cover your face.

Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this.

It certainly presents a problem for Henri Bergson as the swatting would imply there was a point of contact between the extended and unextended.

Gord_in_Toronto · 14th October 2019, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by The Common Potato

I entered randi russian women into Google and ...

You should have included the word "Amazing" in the search string.

mgidm86 · 18th October 2019, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

You should have included the word "Amazing" in the search string.

I just did. Don't see any photos of the retired magician, but...

bluesjnr · 19th October 2019, 01:46 AM

Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi?

Thor 2 · 19th October 2019, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi?

Perhaps wasapi has been converted and decided to leave our heathen company.

i

wasapi · 20th October 2019, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi?

Bluesjnr, in post #101 of this thread, I explained why I did not attend.

Scorpion · 20th October 2019, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by wasapi

Bluesjnr, in post #101 of this thread, I explained why I did not attend.

Did you not go to see a psychic on Thursday? You are letting us down, we all want to know what happened.

bluesjnr · 20th October 2019, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Perhaps wasapi has been converted and decided to leave our heathen company.

i

Sorry, I completely missed that.

Spektator · 20th October 2019, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Did you not go to see a psychic on Thursday? You are letting us down, we all want to know what happened.

Read post 101.

Scorpion · 20th October 2019, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Spektator

Read post 101.

Its you who needs to read it, wasapi said she did not go to the church last Friday, but she would see a psychic on Thursday 17th
But now she has started another thread about that.

9th October 2019, 02:06 AM	#81
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 88,471	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I have been assured by friends who are lawyers with the Family Court that it is not legal to record someone without their knowledge. It was one of those things that I heard many years ago, forgot the source of, and always assumed was true, that it was legal to record a conversation between two people as long as at least one of them was aware that it was happening. I casually mentioned this while in my lawyer friends' company once and they jumped straight down my throat. Of course, this applies to my local jurisdiction. You should check. It's obviously a tad more complicated , public and private places come into it, reason for recording.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

9th October 2019, 02:09 AM	#82
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	Originally Posted by bluesjnr Recording a conversation in secret is not a criminal offence and is not prohibited in the UK. As long as the recording is for personal use you don't need to obtain consent or let the other person know. Journalists often record conversations in secret that they then publish without facing any legal problems. Things change if the matter is addressed with a claim for damages or if the recordings have been shared without the consent of the participants. Even worse, if the recording is sold to third parties or released in public without the consent of the participants then this could be considered a criminal offence. From here. Don't know where wasapi hails from but I suspect it's not the UK. IANAL Also this isn't a private conversation, it is either a meeting open to the public or a performance. Most laws against recording relate to privacy or copyright laws. The former shouldn't apply as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public, the second would presumably depend on if there are any rules against recording posted as a condition of entry. As your quote says, the purpose of taking the recording is also significant, making the recording as an aide memoir, even if you'll later transcribe and quote parts non professionally and without identifying participants is very different to releasing the recording publically, releasing it professionally in any context, using it to identify the participants or using it in a court case. /IANAL
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

9th October 2019, 05:51 AM	#83
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 7,130	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer IANAL Also this isn't a private conversation, it is either a meeting open to the public or a performance. Most laws against recording relate to privacy or copyright laws. The former shouldn't apply as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public, the second would presumably depend on if there are any rules against recording posted as a condition of entry. As your quote says, the purpose of taking the recording is also significant, making the recording as an aide memoir, even if you'll later transcribe and quote parts non professionally and without identifying participants is very different to releasing the recording publically, releasing it professionally in any context, using it to identify the participants or using it in a court case. /IANAL Good point.. this is not a private conversation so what is it? Is it a performance? If so, then it get very complicated and the medium would have to identify the session as such to be protected, as I understand it. Also, IANAL.
	__________________ Thanks for bringing the list of [your] cards to our attention, we will try to be more vigilant in future - Zooterkin If it helps, I'm in favor of suspending you, too - Loss Leader

9th October 2019, 07:05 AM	#84
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	Originally Posted by bluesjnr Good point.. this is not a private conversation so what is it? Is it a performance? If so, then it get very complicated and the medium would have to identify the session as such to be protected, as I understand it. Also, IANAL. The woo slinger has to walk a tightrope between "believe me and give me respect/donations/love offerings/fees" and "yes, but I don't take any responsibility if you actually take my advice/treatment/borrow against credit cards in the expectation that God will pay it back tenfold and it all goes Pete Tong on you".
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

9th October 2019, 08:53 AM	#85
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,736	At the church, go right up to the medium and ask if you can record the proceedings. And make a note of the answer you get.
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

9th October 2019, 09:56 AM	#86
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles July Co-Pither, August TLA & Co-Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 52,624	If one is planning to flip tables and expose fraud and do hard hitting Skeptical Investigation wouldn't it be sensible to just attend the first time peaceably, keeping quiet and not making waves? That way one could gather data from observation before attempting anything on a subsequent visit.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

9th October 2019, 10:15 AM	#87
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey If one is planning to flip tables and expose fraud and do hard hitting Skeptical Investigation wouldn't it be sensible to just attend the first time peaceably, keeping quiet and not making waves? That way one could gather data from observation before attempting anything on a subsequent visit. Whatever reason I went I think I'd record it, it would be interesting afterwards to note my impressions and then go back to the recording and see how well they matched what happened (miss to hit ratio, specifics vs generalisations). It would also give me an opportunity to see what information I might have let slip in conversation to other attendees without really thinking about it and if I went back again and that information, or other information that could be reasonably easily gained as a result of knowing that information was given back to me in a message I wouldn't spend the rest of my life wondering about it. No need to march up on stage and denounce the culprits, but you'd know for yourself.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

9th October 2019, 10:39 AM	#88
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 18,045	Originally Posted by sackett At the church, go right up to the medium and ask if you can record the proceedings. As a non-lawyer, and thus insufficiently informed regarding the specific legal obligations that apply, I would certainly err on the side of explicit, fully-informed consent of all relevant parties. Or consult with an appropriately qualified lawyer, obviously. In my mind that conflicts inherently with the desire here to obtain unbiased data. From a science standpoint, we would want the medium to behave in a typical manner, ideally over a number of trials since we expect a degree of variation in the accuracy of the prediction from trial. Whether the medium honestly believes in their ability or not, the scientist can imagine various ways in which the performance will be altered by knowing that an objective record is being kept and will be reviewed later for accuracy. Drawing all the reasonable inferences in the medium's favor, we propose that the medium believes in a legitimate ability. But we also acknowledge that some judgment operates on the part of the medium. We presume that the medium desires a favorable hit rate. This creates the incentive for omitting a reading that the medium believes is ambiguous and will be recorded, whereas if only a human-memory record of the ambiguous reading will survive, the medium might take a chance and offer it. That's just one example. It seams reasonable on its face to propose that knowing a session will be objectively recorded might alter the performance, and thus taint the data. The best data from a scientific standpoint is probably not ethical to obtain from a legal standpoint.

9th October 2019, 11:57 AM	#89
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,736	Now Jay, you know perfectly well that I know perfectly well that the charlatan-in-charge knows perfectly well that recording her schtick would knock the whole playhouse down. I did but jest! as the drunken lout exclaims after beaning Tom Jones with the pewter tankard.
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil Last edited by sackett; 9th October 2019 at 11:58 AM.

9th October 2019, 04:54 PM	#90
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Originally Posted by Darat It's obviously a tad more complicated , public and private places come into it, reason for recording. They were very clear. Secretly recording a conversation is not on. And remember, I was talking to Family Court lawyers. They have seen this before, and checked the legislation. I trust their word. But as I said, this applies to my jurisdiction. Other places will have different legalities.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

9th October 2019, 07:32 PM	#91
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 25,946	I would at least be a bit wary that if this is the kind of place where they exploit the bereaved by claiming messages from the beyond that you make sure that you can trust your friend not to be trying to maneuver you into some kind of trap or to have passed on information about your own personal tragedies.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

10th October 2019, 02:05 AM	#92
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	Originally Posted by arthwollipot They were very clear. Secretly recording a conversation is not on. And remember, I was talking to Family Court lawyers. They have seen this before, and checked the legislation. I trust their word. But as I said, this applies to my jurisdiction. Other places will have different legalities. But a meeting, open to the public, isn't a conversation and the end point isn't evidence to use in court, the expectation of privacy is very different.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,051	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

10th October 2019, 03:10 AM	#93
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 11,342	The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

10th October 2019, 06:26 AM	#94
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles July Co-Pither, August TLA & Co-Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 52,624	Originally Posted by Pixel42 The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions. I'm getting an impression of a place near or associated with water...and the letter M, or N, or L. Is there anyone here who has lost a great-grandparent? A male or female great-grandparent, possibly old?
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

10th October 2019, 06:32 AM	#95
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: I try to be a moving target Posts: 15,132	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I'm getting an impression of a place near or associated with water...and the letter M, or N, or L. Is there anyone here who has lost a great-grandparent? A male or female great-grandparent, possibly old? It is wrong to assume it is all cold reading. Most is hot reading.

10th October 2019, 06:40 AM	#96
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles July Co-Pither, August TLA & Co-Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 52,624	Originally Posted by Lothian It is wrong to assume it is all cold reading. Most is hot reading. You've eaten a meal in the last two days, I can sense it! And it was...something edible! Foodstuffs!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

10th October 2019, 06:46 AM	#97
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: I try to be a moving target Posts: 15,132	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey You've eaten a meal in the last two days, I can sense it! And it was...something edible! Foodstuffs! Ooo it is as if my Aunt Elsie, died, 82 heart attack, used to call me "poppet", had a dog called Charlie and liked dirty Limericks was with us now. Dont suppose she has another message for me.

10th October 2019, 06:51 AM	#98
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles July Co-Pither, August TLA & Co-Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 52,624	Originally Posted by Lothian Ooo it is as if my Aunt Elsie, died, 82 heart attack, used to call me "poppet", had a dog called Charlie and liked dirty Limericks was with us now. Dont suppose she has another message for me. She does! She wants you to refresh yourself with the smooth taste of an ice-cold Dr Pepper! A lot of people resort to product placement in the afterlife, rent in heaven is astronomical.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

10th October 2019, 06:54 PM	#99
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Originally Posted by Pixel42 The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions. Yes, it is.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

10th October 2019, 09:49 PM	#100
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 7,126	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer But a meeting, open to the public, isn't a conversation and the end point isn't evidence to use in court, the expectation of privacy is very different. But as it is on private property, different rules apply.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 7,126	__________________ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald

11th October 2019, 09:33 AM	#101
wasapi Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,877	Not attending spiritualist church, because . . . The past few days I have been doing deeper research on the church. It turns out that it is run by the people from Berkley Psychic Institute, which I am already familiar with. Why they are allowed to continues has been a mystery to me for many years. Blatant money scam artists, with a woman named Minister Bostwick (I may have the name not quite right). She is a scam artist who runs a church that "teaches" you to be psychic. When people balk at the price, they are told they must not be psychic, or else they would know what a good investment it is. Several years ago, out of curiosity, I attended a free demonstration by the institute, where people were encouraged to pay the price to "learn to be psychic". Her students demonstrated how they were in tune with the "vibes" on the "other side". With eyes closed, they swatted away "negative spirits trying to enter. It looked like people swatting invisible flies. I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick. However, in my research I learned that there is a clothes shop near by, and every 3rd Thursday they have a "psychic" who comes and gives "readings" to those attending. So, next Thursday, the 17th, I will be there.
wasapi Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,877	__________________ Julia

11th October 2019, 01:40 PM	#102
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,712	Originally Posted by wasapi The past few days I have been doing deeper research on the church. It turns out that it is run by the people from Berkley Psychic Institute, which I am already familiar with. Why they are allowed to continues has been a mystery to me for many years. Blatant money scam artists, with a woman named Minister Bostwick (I may have the name not quite right). She is a scam artist who runs a church that "teaches" you to be psychic. When people balk at the price, they are told they must not be psychic, or else they would know what a good investment it is. Several years ago, out of curiosity, I attended a free demonstration by the institute, where people were encouraged to pay the price to "learn to be psychic". Her students demonstrated how they were in tune with the "vibes" on the "other side". With eyes closed, they swatted away "negative spirits trying to enter. It looked like people swatting invisible flies. I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick. However, in my research I learned that there is a clothes shop near by, and every 3rd Thursday they have a "psychic" who comes and gives "readings" to those attending. So, next Thursday, the 17th, I will be there. Hence the need for a handkerchief to cover your face. Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

11th October 2019, 02:46 PM	#103
Tanalia Scholar Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 81	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this. The usual "explanation" would be that the physical motion helps beginners focus their mental energies. More advanced practitioners, a few ~~hundred or thousand dollars~~ lessons later would be able to do it by merely concentrating...
Tanalia Scholar Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 81

11th October 2019, 03:41 PM	#104
wasapi Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,877	Bostwick explained that because they were "psychics", (now that they had payed her an outrageous amount of money to learn to be one!), they had the ability to see "auras" and spirits, which she describes as "translucent entities". Later, I was given a "reading" after the demonstration. He started by telling me my grandmother was there and that I had a religious item, jewelry she gave me that I treasured, because she was such "a devout woman of God". My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure. It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
wasapi Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,877	__________________ Julia

11th October 2019, 04:18 PM	#105
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 23,910	Originally Posted by wasapi My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure. It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience. Which experience, Bostwick or being a floozy like your grandmother?
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

11th October 2019, 05:25 PM	#106
wasapi Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,877	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Which experience, Bostwick or being a floozy like your grandmother? Bostwick! It was kind of cool having a non religious grandma,(a closeted atheist) who died a hussy, chasing old guys in the rest-home, (which she was often in trouble for), where she died in her 90's. Her I'm kind of proud of.
wasapi Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,877	__________________ Julia

11th October 2019, 06:56 PM	#107
Apathia Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,436	Originally Posted by wasapi I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick.
	__________________ "At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

11th October 2019, 07:16 PM	#108
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,736	They do say (they would) that there's a lot of action after lights out in ye old folks' home. I quite look forward to it. "I'm getting a 3. And a W. Three-what? Three-way?! Omigod! Hey, you old crock, stop that! That nurse's aide could be your grand daughter! Now I'm getting an obscene cackle! "From the back of the church? Blasphemy! "Wow. Lookit him go. Old age has changed since my day. Hmm."
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil Last edited by sackett; 11th October 2019 at 07:18 PM.

11th October 2019, 09:41 PM	#109
The Common Potato Thinker Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: The Scunthorpe Problem Posts: 138	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto That was a very good TV show. Randi got into Russia before anyone knew who he was. Much humour as he debunked a series of frauds. Though, in the case of Ted Bundy, I suppose the accuracy of the reading is a matter of perspective. I entered randi russian women into Google and ...

12th October 2019, 12:24 AM	#110
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 11,342	Originally Posted by wasapi Bostwick explained that because they were "psychics", (now that they had payed her an outrageous amount of money to learn to be one!), they had the ability to see "auras" and spirits, which she describes as "translucent entities". Later, I was given a "reading" after the demonstration. He started by telling me my grandmother was there and that I had a religious item, jewelry she gave me that I treasured, because she was such "a devout woman of God". My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure. It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience. It's great when the most likely guess (which is what a cold reader always starts their fishing with) is as 100% wrong as that, it really makes it clear that's what they're doing. They look at expressions and body language to let them know if they're on the right track, of course, you must have a good poker face for this medium to have continued down the wrong one. In one of Randi's TV shows he filmed a medium who started off by telling a young man who'd just lost his mother something which from his confused response was completely wrong; she turned on a sixpence and added something like "which was so unlike her, of course".
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

14th October 2019, 02:12 AM	#111
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 12,164	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Hence the need for a handkerchief to cover your face. Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this. It certainly presents a problem for Henri Bergson as the swatting would imply there was a point of contact between the extended and unextended.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

14th October 2019, 10:52 AM	#112
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 18,822	Originally Posted by The Common Potato I entered randi russian women into Google and ... You should have included the word "Amazing" in the search string.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

18th October 2019, 08:38 PM	#113
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,933	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto You should have included the word "Amazing" in the search string. I just did. Don't see any photos of the retired magician, but...
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,933	__________________ Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

19th October 2019, 01:46 AM	#114
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 7,130	Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi?
	__________________ Thanks for bringing the list of [your] cards to our attention, we will try to be more vigilant in future - Zooterkin If it helps, I'm in favor of suspending you, too - Loss Leader

19th October 2019, 04:56 PM	#115
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,712	Originally Posted by bluesjnr Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi? Perhaps wasapi has been converted and decided to leave our heathen company. i
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.