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Old 9th October 2019, 02:06 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I have been assured by friends who are lawyers with the Family Court that it is not legal to record someone without their knowledge.

It was one of those things that I heard many years ago, forgot the source of, and always assumed was true, that it was legal to record a conversation between two people as long as at least one of them was aware that it was happening. I casually mentioned this while in my lawyer friends' company once and they jumped straight down my throat.

Of course, this applies to my local jurisdiction. You should check.
It's obviously a tad more complicated , public and private places come into it, reason for recording.
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Old 9th October 2019, 02:09 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Recording a conversation in secret is not a criminal offence and is not prohibited in the UK. As long as the recording is for personal use you don't need to obtain consent or let the other person know. Journalists often record conversations in secret that they then publish without facing any legal problems.

Things change if the matter is addressed with a claim for damages or if the recordings have been shared without the consent of the participants. Even worse, if the recording is sold to third parties or released in public without the consent of the participants then this could be considered a criminal offence.

From here.

Don't know where wasapi hails from but I suspect it's not the UK.
IANAL

Also this isn't a private conversation, it is either a meeting open to the public or a performance. Most laws against recording relate to privacy or copyright laws. The former shouldn't apply as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public, the second would presumably depend on if there are any rules against recording posted as a condition of entry. As your quote says, the purpose of taking the recording is also significant, making the recording as an aide memoir, even if you'll later transcribe and quote parts non professionally and without identifying participants is very different to releasing the recording publically, releasing it professionally in any context, using it to identify the participants or using it in a court case.

/IANAL
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Old 9th October 2019, 05:51 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
IANAL

Also this isn't a private conversation, it is either a meeting open to the public or a performance. Most laws against recording relate to privacy or copyright laws. The former shouldn't apply as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public, the second would presumably depend on if there are any rules against recording posted as a condition of entry. As your quote says, the purpose of taking the recording is also significant, making the recording as an aide memoir, even if you'll later transcribe and quote parts non professionally and without identifying participants is very different to releasing the recording publically, releasing it professionally in any context, using it to identify the participants or using it in a court case.

/IANAL
Good point.. this is not a private conversation so what is it?

Is it a performance? If so, then it get very complicated and the medium would have to identify the session as such to be protected, as I understand it. Also, IANAL.
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Old 9th October 2019, 07:05 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Good point.. this is not a private conversation so what is it?

Is it a performance? If so, then it get very complicated and the medium would have to identify the session as such to be protected, as I understand it. Also, IANAL.
The woo slinger has to walk a tightrope between "believe me and give me respect/donations/love offerings/fees" and "yes, but I don't take any responsibility if you actually take my advice/treatment/borrow against credit cards in the expectation that God will pay it back tenfold and it all goes Pete Tong on you".
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:53 AM   #85
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At the church, go right up to the medium and ask if you can record the proceedings.

And make a note of the answer you get.
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Old 9th October 2019, 09:56 AM   #86
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If one is planning to flip tables and expose fraud and do hard hitting Skeptical Investigation wouldn't it be sensible to just attend the first time peaceably, keeping quiet and not making waves? That way one could gather data from observation before attempting anything on a subsequent visit.
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Old 9th October 2019, 10:15 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If one is planning to flip tables and expose fraud and do hard hitting Skeptical Investigation wouldn't it be sensible to just attend the first time peaceably, keeping quiet and not making waves? That way one could gather data from observation before attempting anything on a subsequent visit.
Whatever reason I went I think I'd record it, it would be interesting afterwards to note my impressions and then go back to the recording and see how well they matched what happened (miss to hit ratio, specifics vs generalisations). It would also give me an opportunity to see what information I might have let slip in conversation to other attendees without really thinking about it and if I went back again and that information, or other information that could be reasonably easily gained as a result of knowing that information was given back to me in a message I wouldn't spend the rest of my life wondering about it. No need to march up on stage and denounce the culprits, but you'd know for yourself.
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Old 9th October 2019, 10:39 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
At the church, go right up to the medium and ask if you can record the proceedings.
As a non-lawyer, and thus insufficiently informed regarding the specific legal obligations that apply, I would certainly err on the side of explicit, fully-informed consent of all relevant parties. Or consult with an appropriately qualified lawyer, obviously.

In my mind that conflicts inherently with the desire here to obtain unbiased data. From a science standpoint, we would want the medium to behave in a typical manner, ideally over a number of trials since we expect a degree of variation in the accuracy of the prediction from trial. Whether the medium honestly believes in their ability or not, the scientist can imagine various ways in which the performance will be altered by knowing that an objective record is being kept and will be reviewed later for accuracy.

Drawing all the reasonable inferences in the medium's favor, we propose that the medium believes in a legitimate ability. But we also acknowledge that some judgment operates on the part of the medium. We presume that the medium desires a favorable hit rate. This creates the incentive for omitting a reading that the medium believes is ambiguous and will be recorded, whereas if only a human-memory record of the ambiguous reading will survive, the medium might take a chance and offer it.

That's just one example. It seams reasonable on its face to propose that knowing a session will be objectively recorded might alter the performance, and thus taint the data. The best data from a scientific standpoint is probably not ethical to obtain from a legal standpoint.
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Old 9th October 2019, 11:57 AM   #89
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Now Jay, you know perfectly well that I know perfectly well that the charlatan-in-charge knows perfectly well that recording her schtick would knock the whole playhouse down.

I did but jest! as the drunken lout exclaims after beaning Tom Jones with the pewter tankard.
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Old 9th October 2019, 04:54 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's obviously a tad more complicated , public and private places come into it, reason for recording.
They were very clear. Secretly recording a conversation is not on.

And remember, I was talking to Family Court lawyers. They have seen this before, and checked the legislation. I trust their word. But as I said, this applies to my jurisdiction. Other places will have different legalities.
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Old 9th October 2019, 07:32 PM   #91
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I would at least be a bit wary that if this is the kind of place where they exploit the bereaved by claiming messages from the beyond that you make sure that you can trust your friend not to be trying to maneuver you into some kind of trap or to have passed on information about your own personal tragedies.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:05 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They were very clear. Secretly recording a conversation is not on.

And remember, I was talking to Family Court lawyers. They have seen this before, and checked the legislation. I trust their word. But as I said, this applies to my jurisdiction. Other places will have different legalities.
But a meeting, open to the public, isn't a conversation and the end point isn't evidence to use in court, the expectation of privacy is very different.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:10 AM   #93
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The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:26 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions.
I'm getting an impression of a place near or associated with water...and the letter M, or N, or L. Is there anyone here who has lost a great-grandparent? A male or female great-grandparent, possibly old?
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:32 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm getting an impression of a place near or associated with water...and the letter M, or N, or L. Is there anyone here who has lost a great-grandparent? A male or female great-grandparent, possibly old?
It is wrong to assume it is all cold reading. Most is hot reading.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:40 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It is wrong to assume it is all cold reading. Most is hot reading.
You've eaten a meal in the last two days, I can sense it! And it was...something edible! Foodstuffs!
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:46 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You've eaten a meal in the last two days, I can sense it! And it was...something edible! Foodstuffs!
Ooo it is as if my Aunt Elsie, died, 82 heart attack, used to call me "poppet", had a dog called Charlie and liked dirty Limericks was with us now. Dont suppose she has another message for me.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:51 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Ooo it is as if my Aunt Elsie, died, 82 heart attack, used to call me "poppet", had a dog called Charlie and liked dirty Limericks was with us now. Dont suppose she has another message for me.
She does! She wants you to refresh yourself with the smooth taste of an ice-cold Dr Pepper!

A lot of people resort to product placement in the afterlife, rent in heaven is astronomical.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:54 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The current discussion is moot, it's clear wasapi's intention is just to observe and enjoy. I look forward to hearing about her impressions.
Yes, it is.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:49 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
But a meeting, open to the public, isn't a conversation and the end point isn't evidence to use in court, the expectation of privacy is very different.
But as it is on private property, different rules apply.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:33 AM   #101
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Not attending spiritualist church, because . . .

The past few days I have been doing deeper research on the church. It turns out that it is run by the people from Berkley Psychic Institute, which I am already familiar with.

Why they are allowed to continues has been a mystery to me for many years. Blatant money scam artists, with a woman named Minister Bostwick (I may have the name not quite right). She is a scam artist who runs a church that "teaches" you to be psychic.

When people balk at the price, they are told they must not be psychic, or else they would know what a good investment it is.

Several years ago, out of curiosity, I attended a free demonstration by the institute, where people were encouraged to pay the price to "learn to be psychic". Her students demonstrated how they were in tune with the "vibes" on the "other side". With eyes closed, they swatted away "negative spirits trying to enter. It looked like people swatting invisible flies. I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick.

However, in my research I learned that there is a clothes shop near by, and every 3rd Thursday they have a "psychic" who comes and gives "readings" to those attending. So, next Thursday, the 17th, I will be there.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:40 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
The past few days I have been doing deeper research on the church. It turns out that it is run by the people from Berkley Psychic Institute, which I am already familiar with.

Why they are allowed to continues has been a mystery to me for many years. Blatant money scam artists, with a woman named Minister Bostwick (I may have the name not quite right). She is a scam artist who runs a church that "teaches" you to be psychic.

When people balk at the price, they are told they must not be psychic, or else they would know what a good investment it is.

Several years ago, out of curiosity, I attended a free demonstration by the institute, where people were encouraged to pay the price to "learn to be psychic". Her students demonstrated how they were in tune with the "vibes" on the "other side". With eyes closed, they swatted away "negative spirits trying to enter. It looked like people swatting invisible flies. I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick.

However, in my research I learned that there is a clothes shop near by, and every 3rd Thursday they have a "psychic" who comes and gives "readings" to those attending. So, next Thursday, the 17th, I will be there.

Hence the need for a handkerchief to cover your face.

Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:46 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this.

The usual "explanation" would be that the physical motion helps beginners focus their mental energies. More advanced practitioners, a few hundred or thousand dollars lessons later would be able to do it by merely concentrating...
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Old 11th October 2019, 03:41 PM   #104
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Bostwick explained that because they were "psychics", (now that they had payed her an outrageous amount of money to learn to be one!), they had the ability to see "auras" and spirits, which she describes as "translucent entities".
Later, I was given a "reading" after the demonstration. He started by telling me my grandmother was there and that I had a religious item, jewelry she gave me that I treasured, because she was such "a devout woman of God".

My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure.

It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:18 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post

My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure.

It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
Which experience, Bostwick or being a floozy like your grandmother?
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Old 11th October 2019, 05:25 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Which experience, Bostwick or being a floozy like your grandmother?
Bostwick!

It was kind of cool having a non religious grandma,(a closeted atheist) who died a hussy, chasing old guys in the rest-home, (which she was often in trouble for), where she died in her 90's.

Her I'm kind of proud of.
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Old 11th October 2019, 06:56 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I could not suppress my giggles, and was glared at by Bostwick.
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Old 11th October 2019, 07:16 PM   #108
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They do say (they would) that there's a lot of action after lights out in ye old folks' home. I quite look forward to it.

"I'm getting a 3. And a W. Three-what? Three-way?! Omigod! Hey, you old crock, stop that! That nurse's aide could be your grand daughter! Now I'm getting an obscene cackle!

"From the back of the church? Blasphemy!

"Wow. Lookit him go. Old age has changed since my day. Hmm."
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:41 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
That was a very good TV show. Randi got into Russia before anyone knew who he was. Much humour as he debunked a series of frauds. Though, in the case of Ted Bundy, I suppose the accuracy of the reading is a matter of perspective.
I entered randi russian women into Google and ...
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Old 12th October 2019, 12:24 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Bostwick explained that because they were "psychics", (now that they had payed her an outrageous amount of money to learn to be one!), they had the ability to see "auras" and spirits, which she describes as "translucent entities".
Later, I was given a "reading" after the demonstration. He started by telling me my grandmother was there and that I had a religious item, jewelry she gave me that I treasured, because she was such "a devout woman of God".

My grandmother never attended church. By 1930 she had been married and divorced a couple of times and was busy looking for her 3rd or 4th husband. She was looked at as fluzzy, I'm sure.

It just got worse, and I have no desire to repeat the experience.
It's great when the most likely guess (which is what a cold reader always starts their fishing with) is as 100% wrong as that, it really makes it clear that's what they're doing. They look at expressions and body language to let them know if they're on the right track, of course, you must have a good poker face for this medium to have continued down the wrong one.

In one of Randi's TV shows he filmed a medium who started off by telling a young man who'd just lost his mother something which from his confused response was completely wrong; she turned on a sixpence and added something like "which was so unlike her, of course".
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Old 14th October 2019, 02:12 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hence the need for a handkerchief to cover your face.

Swatting away negative spirits ..... humm ..... seems somewhat contradictory to the notion that spirits have no material substance, and would not be swattable. We must get an expert like Scorpion to give his take on this.
It certainly presents a problem for Henri Bergson as the swatting would imply there was a point of contact between the extended and unextended.
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Old 14th October 2019, 10:52 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
I entered randi russian women into Google and ...
You should have included the word "Amazing" in the search string.
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Old 18th October 2019, 08:38 PM   #113
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
You should have included the word "Amazing" in the search string.

I just did. Don't see any photos of the retired magician, but...
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Old 19th October 2019, 01:46 AM   #114
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Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi?
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Old 19th October 2019, 04:56 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi?

Perhaps wasapi has been converted and decided to leave our heathen company. i
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Old 20th October 2019, 09:06 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Can we expect a summary of the event now that you've been wasapi?
Bluesjnr, in post #101 of this thread, I explained why I did not attend.
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Old 20th October 2019, 09:13 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Bluesjnr, in post #101 of this thread, I explained why I did not attend.
Did you not go to see a psychic on Thursday? You are letting us down, we all want to know what happened.
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Old 20th October 2019, 09:58 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Perhaps wasapi has been converted and decided to leave our heathen company. i
Sorry, I completely missed that.
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Old 20th October 2019, 02:38 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Did you not go to see a psychic on Thursday? You are letting us down, we all want to know what happened.
Read post 101.
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Old 20th October 2019, 02:47 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
Read post 101.
Its you who needs to read it, wasapi said she did not go to the church last Friday, but she would see a psychic on Thursday 17th
But now she has started another thread about that.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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