ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th October 2019, 02:40 PM   #81
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,912
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Mankind will survive. When the problem gets so bad that powerful can no longer hide from it, they will throw their resources behind it and the smart people they've been ignoring will pull an 11th hour miracle off and the powerful people will pretend like they never doubted the problem.
And they all lived happily ever after

Amen.

Oh look, gas powered leaf blowers are on sale, just in time for fall.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 04:18 PM   #82
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,912
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
We have a group here today who are planning on disrupting commuters by closing a bridge all day. I don't really follow what they expect the positive aspects of their actions to be. Maybe a little temporary publicity, but it will all be forgotten in a day or two.
I'm currently headed for the protest right now. Got a full tank of diesel and I plan on rolling some serious coal in support of the protesters to seek a political solution to the climate emergency. I'll also be blaring I Need to Wake Up by Melissa Etheridge just for the irony.

Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 06:01 PM   #83
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,097
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
You may be right. The cumulative effect of a lot of protests could cause some action. I am ok with that.

However, I am not sure the comparison is valid. The war protests had a very well defined short term goal - stop the war. This goal was accomplished by the mid seventies.

The environmental protests do not really have a measurable goal to be accomplished in the short term. Changing human activity to a point where global warming is nullified is a much longer term goal. The politicians may do *something* immediately but there is no clarity as to whether all the protesters agree on what the short term *something* should be.

Maybe it will be necessary for the types of protests to happen regularly for years to come in the hopes that each will provide a nudge toward the desired cumulative effect.
We had a bunch of nutters here in Wellington yesterday blocking main roads in town at both peak hour traffic times, with a bunch of them gluing themselves to a bank

******* idiot.

It didn't gain them any sympathy or support from what I saw, believe me.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 06:12 PM   #84
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,792
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
We had a bunch of nutters here in Wellington yesterday blocking main roads in town at both peak hour traffic times, with a bunch of them gluing themselves to a bank

******* idiot.

It didn't gain them any sympathy or support from what I saw, believe me.
Did they glue their clothing or their skin?

Turns out that the demo here consists of less than 200 people isolated in the middle of a long bridge. The police have closed the bridge at both ends so anyone who is being inconvenienced will never get within a few hundred meters of the protesters. It seems that most drivers have found alternate routes so the traffic disruptions are minimal. A rush hour accident is way more disruptive than this protest. Seems that this event has worked out reasonably well for everyone.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 06:31 PM   #85
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,205
I'm an Extinction Rebellion protester and I'll be disrupting your work commute. Here's why

Quote:
This week thousands of ordinary Australians, and many thousands more across the globe, will disrupt major cities with rolling blockades to draw attention to the climate crisis.

They will do so under the name of Extinction Rebellion (or XR for short), a new environmental movement.

As a result of their actions, your life may be disrupted. You may be forced to wait or find another route. You may even become angry.

Inevitably these protesters, myself included, will be reduced by some news media to just another bunch of climate activists.



...I am haunted by one image: the moment my children are old enough to understand the gravity of the climate crisis, and they look me in the eye and ask, "but what did you do Mummy?"

Because unlike the cover-ups of the past — tobacco, asbestos, those supposed weapons of mass destruction — this cover-up is being perpetrated by all of us, every day.

Yes, governments are failing us, but we are all complicit. The facts are quite literally a tap of a keyboard away from our discovery.

Indeed, they are splashed across the news each night.



...I am strengthened by one thought. We are in desperate times and nothing else has worked.

Some of the greatest minds in the climate and environmental space — Sir David Attenborough and Tim Flannery among them — have spoken out in support of non-violent civil disobedience (or in other words, disrupting business as usual to force a public conversation).

History tells us such methods do work.

One might only consider the Suffragettes or the civil rights movement of the 1960s. And already we are seeing it work in the climate space too.

Since Extinction Rebellion was launched in the UK last year, more than 1,000 jurisdictions around the world have declared a climate emergency which is the first of XR's three demands.



...We are 80-year-old grandparents, and 40-year-old parents and 20-year-old tradies.

We are psychologists and truck drivers and electricians.

We are ordinary people who can't sleep at night worrying about the climate emergency.

We are grown men who cry when asked about the future.

We are stepping way out of our comfort zones because we feel we must.

We are the powerless, just like you, trying to find our voice in a world that defers always to the powerful.

As Greta Thunberg, the 16-year-old Swedish schoolgirl who triggered mass global school strikes told the UN last week, "the world is waking up".

And I believe, with that waking up comes personal responsibility.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 06:36 PM   #86
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,097
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Did they glue their clothing or their skin?



Turns out that the demo here consists of less than 200 people isolated in the middle of a long bridge. The police have closed the bridge at both ends so anyone who is being inconvenienced will never get within a few hundred meters of the protesters. It seems that most drivers have found alternate routes so the traffic disruptions are minimal. A rush hour accident is way more disruptive than this protest. Seems that this event has worked out reasonably well for everyone.
Skin

Their hands

Sent from my SM-J111M using Tapatalk
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 06:57 PM   #87
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,792
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Skin

Their hands

Sent from my SM-J111M using Tapatalk
Nature will soon be calling. What then, I wonder. Hope they have an environmentally friendly solution.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 09:52 PM   #88
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,097
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

That was who our idiots yesterday were.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 10:05 PM   #89
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,205
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That was who our idiots yesterday were.
Yes, and you might want to read that article to find out who they are and why they're doing what they're doing. I exceprted some relevant parts, but you should read the whole thing.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 10:07 PM   #90
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,097
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, and you might want to read that article to find out who they are and why they're doing what they're doing. I exceprted some relevant parts, but you should read the whole thing.
I did read it.

This doesn't stop them being idiots.

I am working on the theory they are jealous of Greta
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2019, 11:06 PM   #91
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,205
But it does work. It always has. And it has always made people angry. Here's a clue: if you're more angry that your commute to work was delayed than you are that billion-dollar corporations and corrupt governments are actively destroying our planet, then you've got the wrong ******* priorities.

Thanks to Extinction Rebellion, we’re experiencing a climate culture change

Quote:
Rightwing critics fulminate against the protesters, but the public is finally waking up to the gravity of their cause

In the Mall, up Whitehall, or crossing Trafalgar Square early this morning, the climate activists looked like rush-hour office workers and civil servants – mainly 30 to 50-year-olds, with no dreadlocked tree-huggers, SWP banners or black-masked anarchists looking for a punch-up. Chanting about the climate emergency, frankly, they seemed a bit sheepish, not used to it. Their ordinariness makes Extinction Rebellion, or XR, especially effective: farmers, scientists, doctors, Cumbrians and other local platoons stand at the 12 key roadblocks.

After their successful capture of central London in April, local cells or “affinity groups” all over the country have trained and planned for this protest. Deciding who would be “arrestable” for highway obstruction – and who wouldn’t be, because of jobs or young families – they were primed to expect a tougher police response after rightwing press complaints against the friendly policing last April, when officers were caught dancing at a blocked Oxford Circus.

“I do wonder if protest makes a difference,” an office manager in her 40s from Hertfordshire said to me. “But what else can you do? My children really made me feel I must.” A steward in a pink gilet, a mother from south London, said the same: “It was my children who got me into this.” Thousands more are expected to join.

For those who doubt the effect of last April’s XR protests, Ben Page of Ipsos Mori says: “In our polls in 2013, 59% said the planet was ‘heading for disaster’. This year it’s gone up to 78%.” He reckons Greta Thunberg, the school strikes and XR action played their part. What packs an extra punch is that London is just one of 60 global cities engaged in “uprising” at the same time. To those who say why bother, when the UK is too small for our carbon emissions to matter, this synchronised global action reaches all those leaders who attended last month’s UN climate change summit – where the UN general secretary warned: “We face a direct existential threat.”
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 05:16 AM   #92
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,912
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I love the cop out at the end.

Quote:
Flying, driving, eating beef may go the way of smoking – but only if the heavy lifting is done by the state.
No, Polly do it now, do it today. Swear off that flying, driving and eating beef today, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year, not in 11 years when your lifestyle has screwed us all. Do it today

What are you waiting for ?
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 05:29 AM   #93
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,982
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I love the cop out at the end.







No, Polly do it now, do it today. Swear off that flying, driving and eating beef today, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year, not in 11 years when your lifestyle has screwed us all. Do it today



What are you waiting for ?
My favorite bit was the "1000 jurisdictions" making an empty gesture. This is their most celebrated achievement so far. If you were stupid, you might even think it was a thousand countries.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 08:27 AM   #94
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,792
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But it does work. It always has. And it has always made people angry. Here's a clue: if you're more angry that your commute to work was delayed than you are that billion-dollar corporations and corrupt governments are actively destroying our planet, then you've got the wrong ******* priorities.

Thanks to Extinction Rebellion, we’re experiencing a climate culture change
Interesting quote from your link

“In our polls in 2013, 59% said the planet was ‘heading for disaster’. This year it’s gone up to 78%.

If nearly 4 out of 5 people think the planet's ecology is heading for disaster, and the problem of global warming continues unabated, then there is an apparent disconnect between what people think and what actions they are personally taking to reduce contributing emissions.

Corporations and governments cannot "destroy the planet" (I hate that term. Upset the ecosystem is much more accurate) without the cooperation of their millions of employees, customers, and/or citizens. Billion dollar corporations cannot produce products causing emissions without thousands of individual people working for them and helping them do it. If 80% of the employees of a large corporation that is contributing significantly to carbon emissions got together for a work stoppage, even a short one would have significant effect on the management. If enough people were serious about changing areas of their lives to eliminate significant burning of fossil fuels, such as stop driving, then the oil companies product sales would be much reduced. Less oil being burned = less carbon emissions = less oil being produced = lower emissions contribution by billion dollar corporations.

Citizen demonstrations can be effective. There were large demonstrations a couple of weekends ago that, if continued on a regular basis, could eventually cause some change. Governments would take notice. On the other hand, yesterday's demo here consisted of around 200 people and caused only minor inconvenience to relatively few commuters. I was surprised at that. I expected a much larger turnout.

Groups of people by themselves have sufficient ability to reduce carbon emissions considerably without involving governments or corporations. If enough people got serious about this the change would come a lot more quickly than fighting the inertial built into bureaucracies and corporate boards. The billion-dollar corporations would be forced to change to meet the new reality.

In my view most of those 78% who think the planet is headed for disaster seem to be waiting for someone else to fix it for them.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 08:55 AM   #95
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,982
"Disaster" over the long term is probably avoidable simply by humans adapting to the changing environment as it changes. The upper bound on adaptation is probably governed by available energy, and at the moment it looks like there's more than enough energy reserves on Earth to sustain human adaptation, at large populations and large scales, for the forseeable future. We haven't yet been highly motivated to do much with uranium, but I bet if the average global temperature started going up a few degrees over a few hundred years, that would change pretty quick. Or if we finally passed peak oil.

Disaster over the short term - in my lifetime, for example - is a whole other matter. That would require immediate and drastic changes, and probably require some sort of totalitarian world government to enforce the needed turnaround in the short time remaining.

Thus my questions about what exactly needs to be done on what time scale. If it's a long-term problem, then humanity will probably figure it out as it goes along. Regardless, the ultimate success or failure of human adaptation will happen far beyond my lifetime, and there's probably nothing I can really do about it today. Live large or live small, it won't really move the needle either way, for humans two hundred years from now.

There seems to be a vague idea that if we don't reduce Emissions X by cutting Activity Y, there will be Z million deaths within 11 years, or something. But nobody can say how much X needs to be, or how much Y needs to be cut, or how large Z could get. Or even if 11 years is really the time frame. People handwave about all that info being at ipcc.org. But I bet it isn't. If it were, you'd be able to cite the specific facts and figures.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 08:58 AM   #96
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,792
For anyone who cares - my personal thoughts re climate change and its effect on humans.

Extinction is the way things work on this planet. Almost all species that have ever existed are now extinct. Prior mass extinctions have almost exclusively caused by climate change. Past climate drastic changes have been caused by asteroids, volcanoes, perhaps gamma ray bursts, to name a few. The current climate change, not as drastic as previous ones yet, is caused by humans burning fossil fuels.

Prior mass extinctions have always cleared the way for new species to emerge. No extinction, no matter how drastic, has destroyed the planet. It merely changes the ecosystem.

There is nothing special about humanity that makes us immune from extinction. It is almost certain to happen at some point. If the worst case current climate crisis proves to be the cause of our extinction so be it. We seem to think we are special because of our brains. (Some think it's because of our gods ). If our brains (or our gods) are not sufficient to get us out of the current climate crisis then perhaps the time has come to make way for a new dominant species to try their luck. Maybe in a million years or so intelligent cockroaches will be colonizing Mars. They are much better suited for it than our fragile little bodies.

Having said all that, I expect that this current climate crisis will not be the end of humanity. Adjustments that we will make will ensure our survival although the changes will be quite tough on those who do survive. Not all current species will survive and life will be tougher for those that do. Regardless of how it works out the surface of the earth will look quite different in 50 years from how it looks now.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 09:53 AM   #97
applecorped
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,796
I'm having a giant bonfire this weekend in hopes of ending global warming I invite everyone to bring their old tires
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 10:39 AM   #98
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,070
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The upper bound on adaptation is probably governed by available energy, and at the moment it looks like there's more than enough energy reserves on Earth to sustain human adaptation, at large populations and large scales, for the forseeable future.
Available energy is not the limitation which prevents us from building self contained self sustaining biospheres. The only current way humans can survive is relying on the earths natural ecological systems. If those break we die.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That would require immediate and drastic changes, and probably require some sort of totalitarian world government to enforce the needed turnaround in the short time remaining.
The prevailing answer is to put a price on fossil carbon emissions. Efficient free markets synonymous with “totalitarianism” are the polar opposite of totalitarianism.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

Last edited by lomiller; 8th October 2019 at 11:55 AM.
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 12:07 PM   #99
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,097
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Available energy is not the limitation which prevents us from building self contained self sustaining biospheres. The only current way humans can survive is relying on the earths natural ecological systems. If those break we die.


The prevailing answer is to put a price on fossil carbon emissions. Efficient free markets synonymous with “totalitarianism” are the polar opposite of totalitarianism.
I doubt it is going to get to the point we need biospheres or humans become extinct.

You do realise there are places near the equator that sit at about 30 degrees year round where a lot of people live.

Quite a few may die off, but the world needs a bit of a cull any way as there are too many of us.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 12:36 PM   #100
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,210
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Interesting quote from your link

“In our polls in 2013, 59% said the planet was ‘heading for disaster’. This year it’s gone up to 78%.

If nearly 4 out of 5 people think the planet's ecology is heading for disaster, and the problem of global warming continues unabated, then there is an apparent disconnect between what people think and what actions they are personally taking to reduce contributing emissions.

Corporations and governments cannot "destroy the planet" (I hate that term. Upset the ecosystem is much more accurate) without the cooperation of their millions of employees, customers, and/or citizens. Billion dollar corporations cannot produce products causing emissions without thousands of individual people working for them and helping them do it. If 80% of the employees of a large corporation that is contributing significantly to carbon emissions got together for a work stoppage, even a short one would have significant effect on the management. If enough people were serious about changing areas of their lives to eliminate significant burning of fossil fuels, such as stop driving, then the oil companies product sales would be much reduced. Less oil being burned = less carbon emissions = less oil being produced = lower emissions contribution by billion dollar corporations.

Citizen demonstrations can be effective. There were large demonstrations a couple of weekends ago that, if continued on a regular basis, could eventually cause some change. Governments would take notice. On the other hand, yesterday's demo here consisted of around 200 people and caused only minor inconvenience to relatively few commuters. I was surprised at that. I expected a much larger turnout.

Groups of people by themselves have sufficient ability to reduce carbon emissions considerably without involving governments or corporations. If enough people got serious about this the change would come a lot more quickly than fighting the inertial built into bureaucracies and corporate boards. The billion-dollar corporations would be forced to change to meet the new reality.

In my view most of those 78% who think the planet is headed for disaster seem to be waiting for someone else to fix it for them.
Some of us even feel like we are actually paying someone else to fix it for us, and those that are being paid are under-performing.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2019, 01:08 PM   #101
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,210
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Disaster" over the long term is probably avoidable simply by humans adapting to the changing environment as it changes. The upper bound on adaptation is probably governed by available energy, and at the moment it looks like there's more than enough energy reserves on Earth to sustain human adaptation, at large populations and large scales, for the forseeable future. We haven't yet been highly motivated to do much with uranium, but I bet if the average global temperature started going up a few degrees over a few hundred years, that would change pretty quick. Or if we finally passed peak oil.

Disaster over the short term - in my lifetime, for example - is a whole other matter. That would require immediate and drastic changes, and probably require some sort of totalitarian world government to enforce the needed turnaround in the short time remaining.

Thus my questions about what exactly needs to be done on what time scale. If it's a long-term problem, then humanity will probably figure it out as it goes along. Regardless, the ultimate success or failure of human adaptation will happen far beyond my lifetime, and there's probably nothing I can really do about it today. Live large or live small, it won't really move the needle either way, for humans two hundred years from now.

There seems to be a vague idea that if we don't reduce Emissions X by cutting Activity Y, there will be Z million deaths within 11 years, or something. But nobody can say how much X needs to be, or how much Y needs to be cut, or how large Z could get. Or even if 11 years is really the time frame. People handwave about all that info being at ipcc.org. But I bet it isn't. If it were, you'd be able to cite the specific facts and figures.
Looked at through that lens, small gradual changes to a steadily worsening climate seems rational.

But it does not appear that even "gradual" changes will proceed along some kind of steady, uniform, curve allowing changes to be phased in uniformly, and will instead present as series of localized disasters necessitating a "whack-a-mole" approach degrading in effectiveness as the frequency of the disasters increases.

It may seem "easy" enough to construct all buildings 5mm higher throughout the United States over the next thirty years, yet quite a bit more difficult to construct every building in the State of New Jersey 8meters higher over the span of five years- while making every structure in the NorthWest flame retardant within the next 3.
You might argue that such adaptations are too costly and unrealistic to even bother attempting- and you would probably be correct- yet what is the alternative other than having huge transient populations?
And if your argument is that "adaptation" is the acceptance of such transience, or perhaps even the more draconian one that those populations (once wiped out) will cease to be a problem due to their demise, then you fail to consider that "adaptation" will mean not only dealing with the technical difficulties brought on by frequent and unpredictable severe climate events, but also dealing with increasing large populations of displaced, hungry, desperate, and quite likely armed, people with nothing to lose whatever.

Your argument that we don't have enough concrete strategies in place, and therefore should not be taking actions that we know will mitigate the source of the problem - even if they do not address directly each of the possible symptoms is self defeating.
Because all of the exact symptoms are still unknown, dealing directly with the source is the most logical action at this time.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 07:22 AM   #102
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,070
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I doubt it is going to get to the point we need biospheres or humans become extinct.
Changes analogous to those the business as usual scenario are only found in the 6 major mass extinctions in the earths history. Animals our size do not survive these events.
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You do realise there are places near the equator that sit at about 30 degrees year round where a lot of people live.
WTF does that have to do with anything? It’s the speed at which climate conditions change that is the problem. Whole ecosystems can’t just pick up and move overnight.

It’s similar to people claiming “agriculture can move northward”. It can’t because you can’t farm taiga. The soil is too acidic for anything else to grow, drainage patters are erratic so it’s mostly swamp and in North America, what isn’t swamp is usually exposed bedrock with no soil at all. It would take thousands of years to develop soil conditions and drainage conditions suitable for agriculture.

That’s just one example specific to our species, but under rapid climate change, every species simultaneously faces similar challenges. When to many of the key species die off, the web of organisms and micro-organisms that keep our planet livable die off.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 08:07 AM   #103
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,210
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=339488

An example of some early "adaptation" going on?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 11:31 AM   #104
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,070
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=339488

An example of some early "adaptation" going on?
Apparently people left to their own devices, don’t take any steps to adapt.
https://link.springer.com/article/10...84-019-02513-7

Those who fear “totalitarianism” and “big government” should be much more worried about adapting to climate change than implementing carbon pricing to prevent climate change in the first place.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 02:48 PM   #105
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,787
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I did read it.

This doesn't stop them being idiots.

I am working on the theory they are jealous of Greta
They're idiots alright, but for different reasons.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 02:59 PM   #106
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,787
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But it does work. It always has.
No it doesn't, it never has. They reference the civil rights movement in the 1960's but forget to mention the Black Panthers, the widespread almost-daily rioting, etc. The same thing with the biggest icon of this non-violent civil disobedience, Ghandi, they forget to mention the successful guerrilla war being waged by various Indian independence groups against British forces. MLK and Ghandi didn't succeed because non-violent civil disobedience works - it doesn't - but because they were effectively the only way left for TPTB to save face in response to an untenable situation, after which they get glorified in history books and the resistance movements on whose backs they attained success get relegated to footnotes or entirely forgotten.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 04:02 PM   #107
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,923
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Nature will soon be calling. What then, I wonder. Hope they have an environmentally friendly solution.
As someone said:

"Remember Mother Nature Always Bats Last".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 04:05 PM   #108
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,923
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I did read it.

This doesn't stop them being idiots.

I am working on the theory they are jealous of Greta
Problem with what Extinction Rebellion does is that pissing off some poor guy trying to get home work is not the best way of getting your message across.
But of course your fellow activists think it's great.
Which is a problem of activists:they do stuff that goes over big with fellow activists but not with the general public.But you will never get the fellow activists to admit that.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 05:25 PM   #109
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,982
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Changes analogous to those the business as usual scenario are only found in the 6 major mass extinctions in the earths history. Animals our size do not survive these events.
As far as we know, there has never been another animal our size, with our capability to adapt, not by any order of magnitude.

If animals our size regularly exploited nuclear fission and still went extinct, I'd be worried. As it is, I'm thinking you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 05:38 PM   #110
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,205
FYI:

Revealed: the 20 firms behind a third of all carbon emissions

Quote:
New data shows how fossil fuel companies have driven climate crisis despite industry knowing dangers

The Guardian today reveals the 20 fossil fuel companies whose relentless exploitation of the world’s oil, gas and coal reserves can be directly linked to more than one-third of all greenhouse gas emissions in the modern era.

New data from world-renowned researchers reveals how this cohort of state-owned and multinational firms are driving the climate emergency that threatens the future of humanity, and details how they have continued to expand their operations despite being aware of the industry’s devastating impact on the planet.

The analysis, by Richard Heede at the Climate Accountability Institute in the US, the world’s leading authority on big oil’s role in the escalating climate emergency, evaluates what the global corporations have extracted from the ground, and the subsequent emissions these fossil fuels are responsible for since 1965 – the point at which experts say the environmental impact of fossil fuels was known by both industry leaders and politicians.

The top 20 companies on the list have contributed to 35% of all energy-related carbon dioxide and methane worldwide, totalling 480bn tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent (GtCO2e) since 1965.
These are the companies responsible, and the billions of tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent since 1965:

Saudi Aramco 59.26
Chevron 43.35
Gazprom 43.23
ExxonMobil 41.90
National Iranian Oil Co 35.66
BP 34.02
Royal Dutch Shell 31.95
Coal India 23.12
Pemex 22.65
Petróleos de Venezuela 15.75
PetroChina 15.63
Peabody Energy 15.39
ConocoPhillips 15.23
Abu Dhabi National Oil Co 13.84
Kuwait Petroleum Corp 13.48
Iraq National Oil Co 12.60
Total SA 12.35
Sonatrach 12.30
BHP Billiton 9.80
Petrobras 8.68
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:15 AM   #111
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,070
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As far as we know, there has never been another animal our size, with our capability to adapt, not by any order of magnitude.
If our adaptability were up to the task we’d be able to build self contained biospheres. If we can’t do it on a tiny scale how are we going to do the same thing on a global scale?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If animals our size regularly exploited nuclear fission and still went extinct, I'd be worried.
Harnessing nuclear fission for energy production has thus far proved to be only minimally useful. If that is what you are putting your hopes in, praying to the Easter Bunny to save us is likely to be just as effective.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 08:18 AM   #112
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,210
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As far as we know, there has never been another animal our size, with our capability to adapt, not by any order of magnitude.

If animals our size regularly exploited nuclear fission and still went extinct, I'd be worried. As it is, I'm thinking you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Is that the bar for successful adaptation? Not going extinct?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 08:36 AM   #113
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,792
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Is that the bar for successful adaptation? Not going extinct?
Pretty much, yeah.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 01:24 PM   #114
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 15,551
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=339488

An example of some early "adaptation" going on?

In a way, yes, but not in the way you might be thinking. The distribution system is adapting to the increased cost of resources by responding to a perturbation with a shutdown instead of an all-out effort to keep operating.

The perturbation itself is caused in large part by climate change. But the choice of response is not caused by climate change. The utility could in theory have avoided the need for a shutdown by either being granted immunity from responsibility for fires, or by undertaking a massive effort (starting two years ago) to reduce the fire risks by sending out, say, a thousand work crews to maintain and upgrade systems. They couldn't swing the former option politically, and they can't afford the latter option.

(Can't they increase rates to pay for the latter option? Actually, no. A high percentage of their customers can't afford sharply increased rates, and would be forced to reduce usage instead, which would mean an even bigger increase is needed [because the upgrade costs are fixed systemwide, not per customer or per kWh], which feeds back to even more reduced usage. The actual rate increase needed once all that's taken into account would be so high that the backlash would get the people running the utility canned. And as beneficial as those turns of events might be for the environment [though bad for the lower classes' standard of living], the people who would be canned are the ones who are making the decision, so that option is off the table.)

That's how infrastructure adapts. By deteriorating. Step by step it gets a little less reliable, a little less complete in its coverage, a little more expensive to use.

The upside is, individuals also can and will adapt. People can become personally more resilient as the systems they got used to counting on become less so. That process has barely begun; in fact, for the time being people's ability to handle outages and other disruptions in services is probably still trending the wrong way. That's going to change.
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 01:24 PM   #115
jakesteele
Fait Accompli
 
jakesteele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rain City
Posts: 2,158
50 Simple Things You Can Do to Save the Earth.

https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Things.../dp/1555694454
__________________

Life is God’s funniest joke
And we are the punchline

Last edited by jakesteele; 10th October 2019 at 01:27 PM.
jakesteele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 05:46 AM   #116
wobs
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hull
Posts: 2,068
We need more of this:
https://newsthump.com/2019/10/11/dad...with-a-jumper/
__________________
"To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."
wobs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 01:29 AM   #117
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 36,760
We have the road map for what we need to do to avert irreversible global warming: The UN’s Sustainable Development Goals for 2030.



The Ellen MacArthur Foundation are leaders in Circular Economy.
https://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/

Jeremy Riffkin guided and worked with Angela Merkel and President Li of China to help set their Circular Economy policies in place.


There's a good term for what many of us are now:

Transitionists.

We've known about greenhouse gases, the hole in the ozone layer, the loss of native habitat and species, etc since the eighties. We first started recycling (which was newspaper) in 1988 in Melbourne. Our first kerbside recycling bins were in 1989.

We've already transitioned from all fossil fuel energy.
We can't just stop using oil or coal suddenly, or there would be energy shortages, and that could risk lives.

We're transitioning from mainly fossil fuels to mainly renewables.
We’re building more renewable energy sources, and less non-renewable power plants.

We're also transitioning from eating too much meat to eating more plants and less meat.
Two years and hundreds of scientists have produced the EAT Lancet Study, which sets out the flexible and enjoyable “Planetary Health Diet” which will feed the predicted population of 10 billion healthy people sustainably in 2050.


We’re planting many more trees and chopping down less old growth.
(Pet tip: You can use the Ecosia Chrome extension/browser that uses ad revenue to fund reforestation projects.)

https://www.ecosia.org/

We've transitioned from mass over-consumption and landfill waste to recycling more and more plastics and developing compostable and fully-recyclable products.

Slow Fashion Collective and Fashion Revolution have made a huge impact upon ending Fast Fashion in the global fashion industry and have been improving factory conditions and transparency in China and worldwide.


I've always been annoyed about Big Organic's over-inflated health claims, but I'm now resigned to the fact that conventional agriculture is almost indistinguishable from it in supermarkets, as conventional agriculture has done things like reduced the use of all-feedlot lifespan of animals.

But I'm against buying anything labelled "GMO-Free", because plant biotechnology is one of the ways we can safely improve yields and feed 10 billion people in 2050.

I had a few discussions with a philanthropic l Eritrean I met recently. He seemed to assume I'd think the Extinction Rebellion protesters go too far, by bringing big ceramic sinks to the city, and chaining themselves to Land Rovers.

Later after we'd talked a while, he told me about people desperately escaping government violence in East Africa by killing soldiers, stealing their guns, and using them to get across borders to help from outside.

I said if Extinction Rebellion and privileged people in privileged countries protest dramatically, doesn’t it tell the powerful, corrupt, the leaders, and the most-privileged to realise their exploitation is what causes civil war and economic disasters and that 99% of the world wants change?

Change is hard.

Some speak as if it’s easier for themselves to have one fixed idea and deny that any change is required.

It’s hard to learn the many multitudes of ways we each can change more and destroy the planet less.

But change is happening everywhere.

Often, I’ve thought, X political organisation should be doing B.

Then I do a search online, and find they’re already implementing those plans.

Government is not just the current elected party member and their soundbites.
It’s the public servants and contractors who are held accountable too, and who are our friends and/or neighbours.

Government is us, and our vote.

Our vote is also our note – what we buy with our currencies are statistics towards what is acceptable to produce. What we do and say and eat and wear and use all influence the market.

As Greta Thunberg said in New York, “Once we start to act, hope is everywhere”.

As Eliud Kipchoge said yesterday, “Together we can make the world a peaceful place.”
__________________
Challenge your thoughts.
Don't believe everything you think.

Last edited by Orphia Nay; 13th October 2019 at 01:32 AM.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2019, 04:37 PM   #118
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,202
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
NZ has the most carbon efficient methods of farming in the world, but our cows still burp methane.

Our current govt (Labour/Green/an old guy) says this isn't good enough and want to slash livestock numbers.

Meaning less meat and milk being exported.
Agriculture Minister rules out cap on dairy cattle numbers
Quote:
Agriculture Minister Damien O'Connor​ has denied the Government is pushing to put a cap on New Zealand's dairy cow numbers.

Instead, it wanted farmers to better manage their nutrient outputs to improve water quality standards to make rivers swimmable, he told about 500 farmers at a forum at Mystery Creek on Tuesday.

"There's no plan on [reducing] cow numbers at all. In fact, what we said to Greenpeace, who are thinking about asking for a moratorium, is that we don't buy into it."
Ministry for Primary Industries:
Quote:
September 2019 highlights for each sector: Dairy

Dairy exports reached $18.1 billion for the year to June 2019, led by a 2.4% growth in milk production.

For the year to June 2020, we forecast dairy exports to rise 2.8% to $18.6 billion, with rising prices offsetting a slight decline in milk production.
Agriculture and greenhouse gases
Quote:
Farming creates methane and nitrous oxide gases. These gases account for around half of New Zealand's total greenhouse gas emissions. MPI puts a lot of work into researching ways to reduce these emissions...

Our farmers are among the most productive and efficient in the world. Over the past 20 years, they have improved the emissions efficiency of production by about 1% a year... Although total agricultural emissions have grown by 15% since 1990, they would have increased by more than 40% if it wasn’t for the efforts of our farmers.

Farmers can continue to improve their emissions efficiency through a number of means, including:

establishing new forests to off-set emissions – known as creating "carbon sinks"
using fertiliser more efficiently.

Originally Posted by cullennz
You can say the same about coal our current govt banned the mining of.
The old "If I don't do it somebody else will. So I might as well do it" defense. You know that's morally bankrupt, right?
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2019, 09:04 AM   #119
rockysmith76
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 378
Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
OK...

Things I have done (in no particular order of importance):
  1. Insulated my home
  2. Installed double glazing
  3. Installed window shutters
  4. Rode a bicycle to work for 10 years
  5. Sourced food locally (including growing some)
  6. Photo voltaic panels on the roof
  7. Bought a plug-in hybrid car
  8. Didn't have children
  9. Holiday locally
  10. Harvest and use rainwater for domestic tasks
  11. Recycle everything
  12. Reuse a lot

It may not help much but it's better than nothing.
None of that accomplishes anything, it's just feel good nonsense that prolongs the inevitable.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2019, 09:15 AM   #120
rockysmith76
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 378
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Much like another in this thread we have made some changes in our lifestyle.

No heat or AC at all
I dont buy that for a second.

Quote:
Bike as transport, public transport for my wife
Bikes are a known polluter

Quote:
Solar hot water
Solarized water is a carcinogen

Quote:
Near all LED lights
Led lights contain mercury and poisons everything

Quote:
Repair or reuse as possible
You have no right to repair

Quote:
Buy locally when possible
Local amazon delivery is not "local"
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:31 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.