ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , hillary clinton , presidential candidates , Russia conspiracies , Tulsi Gabbard

Reply
Old 20th October 2019, 02:36 PM   #201
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,947
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Whose strategy? How do we know for sure this is anyone's strategy?
Russia's.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 02:36 PM   #202
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,216
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Saying Gabbard is a Russian asset and Putin probably has blackmail material over her, etc is way, way, way beyond just being worried about election interference in 2020.

Anyone of any prominence who wants to scale dial back the US foreign policy establishment's apparent desire for WWIII with Russia will be boosted/amplified by Russia. That doesn't make them "Russian assets" or mean they're "being groomed by Russia."
Unless Clinton has evidence, Im not going to give it much thought. If Gabbard runs on a third party ticket though, I'm going to be pissed. In fact if any of the candidates that have announced that they intend to runn as a Democrat says they are going to mount a third party challenge I'll be pissed.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 02:38 PM   #203
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
It makes them Russia-Approved-Candidates™!
So, we have Putin-approved-candidates, and Kissinger-approved-candidates.

This is a strange game of the weakest form of guilt-by-association. It's one where the wisdom and morality of policies themselves cease to matter at all.

It's the laziest and most cowardly sort of heuristic imaginable for determining foreign policy.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 02:39 PM   #204
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Russia's.
Evidence?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 02:42 PM   #205
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,947
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Evidence?
Jimmy Dore.*



*I'm only partially kidding.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 02:44 PM   #206
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Unless Clinton has evidence, Im not going to give it much thought. If Gabbard runs on a third party ticket though, I'm going to be pissed. In fact if any of the candidates that have announced that they intend to runn as a Democrat says they are going to mount a third party challenge I'll be pissed.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/cnr.04.html

Quote:
Aired August 29, 2019 - 10:30 ET
Quote:
SCIUTTO: -- you didn't make this debate, you may make the next one, you're sticking in the race. But the fact is, you're well behind was is a pretty established group of frontrunners in this race, including the former vice president, Joe Biden.

If you don't win the Democratic nomination, will you run as an independent?

GABBARD: I will not, no. I've ruled that out. I'm going to continue to focus on moving our campaign forward, continuing this grassroots campaign, continuing to deliver our message to the American people, and ask for their support.
This whole thing is just the foreign policy establishment crowd engaging in necroMcCarthyism fearmongering and smearing.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 02:50 PM   #207
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,349
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because I don't want to assume what your claim is, I want you to state it plainly.
Apparently I'm Hillary? You started this tangent by being stupid about what how Hillary's theory could possibly work. I replied by clarifying what Hillary's actual theory is. She is not claiming that Russia's goal would be to put Gabbard in office, nor to raise her polling (though that would likely be a side effect). She is claiming an attempt to split the anti-Trump vote.

I'm not going to be worried about specific evidence until I have reason to think that Gabbard (or Stein) is doing this knowingly. In the meantime we have plenty of evidence that bad actors will attempt this and we should be aware of it and not play in to it.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 02:55 PM   #208
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,216
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/cnr.04.html

This whole thing is just the foreign policy establishment crowd engaging in necroMcCarthyism fearmongering and smearing.
Then I don't care. Just as I really don't care much what Hillary says these days.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 03:29 PM   #209
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,704
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Whose strategy? How do we know for sure this is anyone's strategy?
Russia's.

Because of the numerous stories describing the inner workings of the Internet Research Agency, et al.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 03:32 PM   #210
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,759
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Let's suppose Gabbard is getting support from the Russians. If she didn't have support from the Russians, would she then be polling at 0%? No, she'd have some support regardless. So the Russians can't even move 2%. That's if we buy Hillary's theory.

Flawed logic. Even assuming Hillary's theory, and given that Russians did not move Gabbards polls 2%, that does not imply that they can not move anyone's polls 2% or more.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 03:40 PM   #211
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,857
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'm not going to be worried about specific evidence
No, of course not.

Quote:
until I have reason to think that Gabbard (or Stein) is doing this knowingly. In the meantime we have plenty of evidence that bad actors will attempt this and we should be aware of it and not play in to it.
If Russia is giving money to Gabbard, that's a violation of the law on their part regardless of whether she knows anything about it. If you believe the claim that they are, then why doesn't that matter? Why doesn't evidence for that matter?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 03:46 PM   #212
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Russia's.

Because of the numerous stories describing the inner workings of the Internet Research Agency, et al.
Is this inaccurate?
https://www.thenation.com/article/ru...-interference/

Quote:
Oxford puts the IRA’s Facebook spending between 2015 and 2017 at just $73,711. As was previously known, about $46,000 was spent on Russian-linked Facebook ads before the 2016 election. That amounts to about 0.05 percent of the $81 million spent on Facebook ads by the Clinton and Trump campaigns combined. A recent disclosure by Google that Russian-linked accounts spent $4,700 on platforms in 2016 only underscores how minuscule that spending was.
Quote:
Covert or Clickbait Operation? Far from exposing a sophisticated propaganda campaign, the reports provide more evidence that the Russians were actually engaging in clickbait capitalism: targeting unique demographics like African Americans or evangelicals in a bid to attract large audiences for commercial purposes. Reporters who have profiled the IRA have commonly described it as “a social media marketing campaign.” Mueller’s indictment of the IRA disclosed that it sold “promotions and advertisements” on its pages that generally sold in the $25-$50 range. “This strategy,” Oxford observes, “is not an invention for politics and foreign intrigue, it is consistent with techniques used in digital marketing.” New Knowledge notes that the IRA even sold merchandise that “perhaps provided the IRA with a source of revenue,” hawking goods such as T-shirts, “LGBT-positive sex toys and many variants of triptych and 5-panel artwork featuring traditionally conservative, patriotic themes.”
The most diabolical "confusing people to result in apathy" stuff I've seen has come right from the GOP. Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCS2b87SbiM
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 03:49 PM   #213
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,349
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, of course not.



If Russia is giving money to Gabbard, that's a violation of the law on their part regardless of whether she knows anything about it. If you believe the claim that they are, then why doesn't that matter? Why doesn't evidence for that matter?
Evidence does matter.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 12
.

Last edited by Agatha; 21st October 2019 at 12:30 PM.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 03:55 PM   #214
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,857
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Evidence does matter.
So is there any evidence that the Russians donated money to Gabbard's campaign?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 04:04 PM   #215
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,704
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Is this inaccurate?

https://www.thenation.com/article/ru...-interference/











The most diabolical "confusing people to result in apathy" stuff I've seen has come right from the GOP. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCS2b87SbiM
Ads on facebook directly influencing the election and some monetization attempts are not all there was.

Accurate or not, your information is off point.

I'm speaking more about the troll farms or God knows whatever they had cooking in other groups the journalists didn't get invited into before they left to write their exposes.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 20th October 2019 at 04:06 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 04:20 PM   #216
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,672
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It wasn't the paid advertising that was the big problem. It was the countless troll accounts and bots masquerading as real persons that spread propaganda 24/7.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 04:22 PM   #217
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Ads on facebook directly influencing the election and some monetization attempts are not all there was.

Accurate or not, your information is off point.

I'm speaking more about the troll farms or God knows whatever they had cooking in other groups the journalists didn't get invited into before they left to write their exposes.
This was/is the troll farms, though.


Quote:
Far from exposing a sophisticated propaganda campaign, the reports provide more evidence that the Russians were actually engaging in clickbait capitalism: targeting unique demographics like African Americans or evangelicals in a bid to attract large audiences for commercial purposes. Reporters who have profiled the IRA have commonly described it as “a social media marketing campaign.” Mueller’s indictment of the IRA disclosed that it sold “promotions and advertisements” on its pages that generally sold in the $25-$50 range. “This strategy,” Oxford observes, “is not an invention for politics and foreign intrigue, it is consistent with techniques used in digital marketing.”
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 04:29 PM   #218
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,672
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Anyone of any prominence who wants to scale dial back the US foreign policy establishment's apparent desire for WWIII with Russia will be boosted/amplified by Russia.
Yes, Russia does support the modern version of the "better red than dead" defeatists; who now clamor for the opportunity to show Russian tanks the fastest route to Tallinn and Riga, instead of Bonn and Vienna as their predecessors did.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

Last edited by Arcade22; 20th October 2019 at 04:33 PM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 09:13 PM   #219
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,203
Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Gabbard predicted the current Syria mess back in Dec 2018....

https://twitter.com/tulsigabbard/sta...12984654946304
Quote:
We need to get our troops out of Syria ASAP, but it must be done responsibly. Turkey will see this as an invitation to invade northern Syria, decimate our Kurdish allies, & strengthen jihadists like AQ/ISIS/etc, undermining our national security and causing more suffering.
Funny, but that's exactly what happened AFTER we withdrew our troops.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 09:25 PM   #220
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,203
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/cnr.04.html





This whole thing is just the foreign policy establishment crowd engaging in necroMcCarthyism fearmongering and smearing.
Glad to see that she's on the record as ruling out a third-party run.

Now, if she were to renege on that promise, however . . .

I would take that as a sign that she is playing as a spoiler, a stalking horse.

(In practice, if that were to actually happen, I don't know who she'd draw more votes from. You'd think democrats, but she seems to be very popular with the alt-right. I don't know if that means likely Trump voters would actually vote for her.)
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 09:26 PM   #221
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,140
Maybe Gabbard is a red herring to cover for the *real* Russian asset.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 09:30 PM   #222
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,252
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Maybe Gabbard is a red herring to cover for the *real* Russian asset.
I consider her more of a long-term investment by Russia - little up-front cost, little exposure.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 09:49 PM   #223
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I consider her more of a long-term investment by Russia - little up-front cost, little exposure.
What about the whole "well-decorated soldier and Iraq war veteran" thing?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2019, 10:04 PM   #224
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,252
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What about the whole "well-decorated soldier and Iraq war veteran" thing?
what about it?

Smedley Butler, possibly the most famous US Marine Corps Generals ever, was a staunch anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist.

Just because you served doesn't mean that your ideology has to conform to the norm.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 12:49 AM   #225
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,677
New Campaign video from Tulsi entitled "Take Back the Democratic Party from Corrupt Elite" (the missing definite article is a clear sign the headline was written by a Russian!!!1):

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Stop babbling, grow a spine and join! Davai!
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:05 AM   #226
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
what about it?

Smedley Butler, possibly the most famous US Marine Corps Generals ever, was a staunch anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist.

Just because you served doesn't mean that your ideology has to conform to the norm.
Being
1) a Russian "asset," and
2) currently being a good, faithful, loyal US soldier

...are very much mutually exclusive categories.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:10 AM   #227
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,947
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
...This whole thing is just the foreign policy establishment crowd engaging in necroMcCarthyism fearmongering and smearing.
That's exactly what Jimmy Dore would tell you to say!
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:16 AM   #228
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
That's exactly what Jimmy Dore would tell you to say!
Jimmy Dore isn't clever enough to coin the term "necroMcCarthyism."
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:16 AM   #229
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,252
In spy terms, being an "asset" only means that you are beneficial to an objective, and as such might be given support rather than being obstructed.
Chomsky is surely a Russian Asset in this sense with his dependable anti-Americanism .. but so is Alex Jones with his penchant for portraying half of Americans as being agents of the Devil.

Europe is full of politicians who are Russian Assets and get financial support from Moscow, even though none of them have ever been directly approached by someone from the GRU - since that might in fact reduce their usefulness.

Gabbard might not welcome Russian support - but she's got it.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:25 AM   #230
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,947
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Jimmy Dore isn't clever enough to coin the term "necroMcCarthyism."
Touché ...!
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:31 AM   #231
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In spy terms, being an "asset" only means that you are beneficial to an objective, and as such might be given support rather than being obstructed.
Nope:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ecruiting.html
Quote:
What's an asset?

… In an ideal sense, I guess, a good counterintelligence asset would be a person who is very familiar with the foreign intelligence officer and tells you all about who they are and what they do. But it really runs the gamut from someone who simply observes the person, to someone who's really a part of that intelligence service and has elected to be recruited in place, if you will, or provide information while still acting in a capacity of a foreign intelligence officer. So an asset can be any of the above.

And how do you develop one?

Well, obviously, it relates to personal relationships. You might identify the people that a foreign intelligence officer is in touch with and, from that group of people, select one or more that you would approach, and you would find out what they're willing to tell you. And over a series of interviews, a series of contacts, you might simply ask them questions and see how far they're willing to go in answering them. And [you] compare what you know from your investigation against what they tell you, and you balance the two. Obviously, if they continuously lie to you, if they're not willing to talk to you, if they're motivated only by personal greed or money, you might want to take what they say with a grain of salt.

Hopefully, over time, you could develop a trusting relationship with that person where you're convinced that they are telling you more than they are that foreign intelligence officer. So that's a balance you also have to maintain.

http://www.intelligence101.com/intel...ligence-asset/
Quote:
An intelligence ‘asset’ refers to either a human source, tool, or piece of equipment used to satisfy information requirements.
Traditionally, the term ‘asset’ referred to HUMINT sources. Today however, our intelligence vernacular has expanded to identify an asset any thing designed, developed, cultivated or utilised to collect information required.

An intelligence asset is used for the collection of information.

The asset is what we use to get the information. The type of information depends on the intelligence discipline.
Here's one example of it used in academic literature about intelligence:
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/zselden/Co...ngs/Zegart.pdf
Quote:
A third fnding was the need to revitalize human intelligence capabilities.
Nine of the twelve reports called for more aggressive human intelligence
efforts to combat terrorism; two did not address the issue95; and only one, the
Twentieth Century Fund report, advocated downgrading collection from human sources. Most frequently mentioned was the need to revise the CIA’s 1995
guidelines that required prior approval from CIA headquarters before an individual suspected of human rights violations could be recruited as an asset—
guidelines that had come to be known as the “scrub order” because they had
led to the removal of hundreds of assets from the CIA’s payroll
.9
The whole notion that an "asset" means "anyone who says things or does things that might be useful to ____ [whatever country]" is completely new.

Or, if it's not, I need someone to show me how this is a longstanding use of the word in intelligence.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:45 AM   #232
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
If you look up the term "soviet asset", you don't find people like antiwar protest leaders, etc. You find stuff like this exclusively.
https://www.pbs.org/redfiles/kgb/inv/kgb_inv_ins.htm
Quote:
Ted Hall recently explained to the intrepid journalist-sleuths who put the pieces of the puzzle palace together of what motivated him as the Soviet asset code-named "MLAD" (youngster) to pass Atomic secrets. Hall worried that an American monopoly of nuclear weapons endangered the world, in a post-war world beset by economic and ideological problems.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/histo...can-turncoats/
Quote:
Rep. Samuel Dickstein (D-N.Y.), who was paid $1,250 a month in the 1940s to pass congressional secrets to the Soviets, while also helping obtain illegal visas for communist operatives.

He was known for being a particularly greedy Soviet asset, which is how he got the name Crook.

“That was a nice touch,” Larsen said, tipping her intelligence cap to the Russians.
In New McCarthyism lingo, what they're doing with the word "asset" is using it's definition in economics ("a resource with economic value that an individual, corporation or country owns or controls with the expectation that it will provide a future benefit) and mixing it up with the spy-jargon word "asset".

It would be a clever little linguistic trick-a-roo if it wasn't so ghastly and contrary to the principles of a free society.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 01:50 AM   #233
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,252
That definition is way to narrow in my opinion. It doesn't reflect the hybrid warfare Russia is engaged in.

An asset doesn't need to be a source of information to be useful - they might also be in a position to be of service.
Trump's ability to launder money made him an asset, not his incredible knowledge of state secrets.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 02:11 AM   #234
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
That definition is way to narrow in my opinion. It doesn't reflect the hybrid warfare Russia is engaged in.

An asset doesn't need to be a source of information to be useful - they might also be in a position to be of service.
Trump's ability to launder money made him an asset, not his incredible knowledge of state secrets.
I'm still digging around for ANY use of the word "asset" that fits your definition before Russiagate, and there's nothing.

Nada. Zip. Zilch.

It was strictly stuff like this (2014)

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...d5a99f9c7.html
Quote:
The entire event — from the arrest, right down to that wig — was strikingly familiar to Michael D. Sellers. He lived it. In 1986, he was a junior officer at the American consulate in Moscow working undercover for the CIA. He was arrested while meeting a Russian asset. He was kicked out of the country.
Do you see that you're borrowing the definition from economics and applying to to the spy lingo version and use of the word?
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 21st October 2019 at 02:16 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 02:13 AM   #235
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,962
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Let's suppose Gabbard is getting support from the Russians. If she didn't have support from the Russians, would she then be polling at 0%? No, she'd have some support regardless. So the Russians can't even move 2%. That's if we buy Hillary's theory.
Why are you assuming that this support would be 2% otherwise?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 02:17 AM   #236
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,252
I agree that my definition doesn't fit the textbook one.
And that probably makes my assessment of Gabbard wrong - or anyone on the US side of the 2016 interference for that matter.

But we are no longer in the Cold War, when intelligence was the most important thing you wanted from the other side.
Putin wants ways to get his money out of Russia, as do the oligarchs. They will use the resources of the Russian Intelligence apparatus to get this done, either by teaming up with people in the West willing to break the law or by getting enough political influence to get the sanctions removed.

Maybe 'asset' is the wrong term for such a person, but what they are doing is beneficial to Moscow, and the Kremlin is aware of that.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 02:25 AM   #237
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I agree that my definition doesn't fit the textbook one.
And that probably makes my assessment of Gabbard wrong - or anyone on the US side of the 2016 interference for that matter.

But we are no longer in the Cold War, when intelligence was the most important thing you wanted from the other side.
Putin wants ways to get his money out of Russia, as do the oligarchs. They will use the resources of the Russian Intelligence apparatus to get this done, either by teaming up with people in the West willing to break the law or by getting enough political influence to get the sanctions removed.

Maybe 'asset' is the wrong term for such a person, but what they are doing is beneficial to Moscow, and the Kremlin is aware of that.
I don't disagree with any of that.

We need a better vocabulary.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 02:25 AM   #238
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,962
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Evidence?
2016.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 03:03 AM   #239
carlosy
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 179
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
That definition is way to narrow in my opinion. It doesn't reflect the hybrid warfare Russia is engaged in.

An asset doesn't need to be a source of information to be useful - they might also be in a position to be of service.
Trump's ability to launder money made him an asset, not his incredible knowledge of state secrets.
By this kind of definition, even Hillary herself was/is an asset. Because she was the perfect candidate against Trump, helping devide the country, being one of the elites etc.
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 03:04 AM   #240
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
2016.
I'm not convinced the Russians deployed a strategy "to have so much nonsense flying around that it makes it hard to even find the truth at all, which encourages apathy".

Maybe they did. I know there's some KGB bigwig, like the Russia's version of Henry Kissinger, who wrote some fictional, futuristic, dystopian novel where intelligence agencies did something like that as part of the plot, and everyone found that in 2016, and then looked at the nonsense that the IRA was spitting out, and it seemed to sort of fit the model.

This is the guy, and the book (if I'm remembering correctly):
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...adislav-surkov
Quote:
The pioneer was Vladislav Surkov, also known as Putin’s Rasputin (in the west) or the grey cardinal (in Russia). He rose from a background in the theatre and PR to become the architect of Putinism – the undisputed master of Russia’s internal politics.

At the height of his power, he represented a sort of Kremlin svengali, controlling most of the MPs in the Duma, the Russian parliament, both from pro-Kremlin parties and the so-called “opposition”. He created youth groups, pulled strings in the media, in the tech sector, NGOs, even the Orthodox church.
Quote:
In 2009, he published a short novel in a Moscow literary magazine. He wrote it under a pseudonym, then let it be known that he was in fact the author. He even wrote his own review.

The story, Almost Zero, describes a dystopian world in which a gangster publisher bribes critics and journalists in the service of corrupt politicians, manipulating the truth to create fake news. In the fevered minds of his opponents, Almost Zero looked less like fiction and more like confession: a man from inside the system telling the world just how powerful, how twisted the system really was.
And a second dystopian novel, same author:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2014/march/non-linear-war
Quote:
It was the first non-linear war. In the primitive wars of the 19th and 20th centuries it was common for just two sides to fight. Two countries. Two groups of allies. Now four coalitions collided. Not two against two, or three against one. No. All against all.

And what coalitions! Not like the ones you had before… It was rare for whole countries to enter. A few provinces would join one side, a few others a different one. One town or generation or gender would join yet another. Then they could switch sides, sometimes mid-battle.

Their aims were quite different. To take over a disputed coastal shelf. To forcefully introduce a new religion. Raise ratings. Try out new lasers. To stop humans being divided into men and women as gender differences undermine the unity of a nation.

Most understood the war to be part of a process. Not necessarily its most important part.
Another article on all of that:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017...mlins-playbook


I'm not sure how much that explains 2016, tho. I kinda suspect most of our disinfo websites, agents, bots and troll might be homegrown. A lot of this stuff is what I would do if I were some mastermind at the Heritage Foundation, or some other (probably lesser known) diabolical rightwing think tank.
I haven't even seen anyone rule out the use of proxies with this stuff, either.

I do believe "the intelligence community" that a lot of "it" was Russian, tho. But I'm not sure the "it" coming from Russia was the shotgun blast of chaos to just flip reality on it's head with a barrage of nonfactual gibberish. The IRA doing basic for-profit clickbaiting for ad revenue and sales BS seems to be a larger motive with the nonsensical stuff.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 21st October 2019 at 03:06 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:56 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.