The Trump Presidency: Part 17

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Upchurch said:
Oh, you're talking about the distraction rather than anything actually important. My bad.
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Because with the big things he can't play "Whatabout."

Fine a Democrat used the term "lynching" in some context in the last 200 years. As long as he's talking about that he can pretend that also means Democrats have also been Russian Sleeper Agents.

If he can Whatabout anything, to him that means he's Whatabouting everything.
 
Ziggurat said:
Have you forgotten what accusation we're talking about here? Because no, that's not the issue. Nobody disputes that Trump used the word "lynch". The accusation is true in that sense. The question is whether that's some terrible offense. And I'm saying that people's past behavior indicates that no, actually, it's not. Nobody really cares about the figurative use of the word, it's the fact that Trump used it which people can't countenance.
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Lindsey Brownnose said that it was actually a lynching in every way. That takes it out of the hyperbole or analogy bucket. Do you think that this is something that is A) true and B) acceptable?
 
Ziggurat said:
Have you forgotten what accusation we're talking about here? Because no, that's not the issue. Nobody disputes that Trump used the word "lynch". The accusation is true in that sense. The question is whether that's some terrible offense. And I'm saying that people's past behavior indicates that no, actually, it's not. Nobody really cares about the figurative use of the word, it's the fact that Trump used it which people can't countenance.
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just don't complain when Democrats run Ads telling Black votes that Trump calls an investigation into him 'Lynching".
After all, it's no big deal according to you.
 
Ziggurat said:
I didn't bring up the subject. Go complain to dudalb.
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Step 1. Demand we show that Trump's action are uniquely bad.
Step 2. Wait until someone makes a comparison to do that.
Step 3. Latch onto the comparison and talk about nothing else.
Step 4. When someone ask you go to back to topic do a faux-innocent "I'm not the one who started the hijack..."

Grow up. You're not starting the hijacks, but you are demanding them.
 
Belz... said:
Lindsey Brownnose said that it was actually a lynching in every way. That takes it out of the hyperbole or analogy bucket. Do you think that this is something that is A) true and B) acceptable?
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No, that's still in the hyperbole bucket. And I'm not a fan of hyperbole, it's generally over-used. But the accusation wasn't that this was unnecessary or inappropriate hyperbole (which most people also don't object to, they only object when the wrong people do it), but that the specific term was offensive. And it's not, not really.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Step 1. Demand we show that Trump's action are uniquely bad.
Step 2. Wait until someone makes a comparison to do that.
Step 3. Latch onto the comparison and talk about nothing else.
Step 4. When someone ask you go to back to topic do a faux-innocent "I'm not the one who started the hijack..."

Grow up. You're not starting the hijacks, but you are demanding them.
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You participated. You only complain now because it hasn't gone your way. You've got now grounds to complain.
 
Ziggurat said:
No, that's still in the hyperbole bucket. And I'm not a fan of hyperbole, it's generally over-used. But the accusation wasn't that this was unnecessary or inappropriate hyperbole (which most people also don't object to, they only object when the wrong people do it), but that the specific term was offensive. And it's not, not really.
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You're not a fan of anything that isn't "Anything but the actual fact and point of the discussion."

Everything is hyperbole if you're a pedant trying to stall out the discussion.
 
I predicted:
newyorkguy said:
The latest is the Trump administration's effort to claim Ukraine didn't even know there was an aid package that Trump was supposedly "withholding."...Expect to hear this repeated by Trump supporters.
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Now it sounds like Team Trump are backing off that claim to float a new one. The Ukrainians knew an aid package had been approved but weren't aware it was being withheld.
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets
Neither he (Taylor) or any other witness has provided testimony that the Ukrainians were aware that military aid was being withheld. You can’t have a quid pro quo with no quo.” Congressman John Ratcliffe @foxandfriends...
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Among many news sources, the Wall Street Journal reports that they were aware:
When news broke that Mr. Trump had blocked hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid for Ukraine, stunned officials in Kyiv frantically called contacts in the State Department and the Pentagon to learn the reason. Some Ukrainian officials surmised that there may have been a technical budgetary reason for the holdup. Others thought it could be that the U.S. is halting foreign aid in general. And some thought it was a personal decision of Mr. Trump. Link
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Next we'll be arguing:

Can you be aware of something without consciously knowing it? Of course you can. I was aware it looked like rain but it just didn't register. Didn't bring my umbrella! :(
 
Trump thinks that the Russian Army moving in to positions previously held by the US and the Kurds being forced out is somehow a big success.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump thinks that the Russian Army moving in to positions previously held by the US and the Kurds being forced out is somehow a big success.
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I do wonder to what degree Trump thinks his connection to Russia is a good look for him.

Trying to figure out how self aware Trump is a fruitless task, but I can't help but wonder if even Trump is clueless enough to think this is still playing well in Peoria so to speak.
 
TofuFighter said:
I'm not sure that I see goalpost-moving, so can I ask you to point out where you see it, please?
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Happy to oblige.

I read the first take at outrage being “Using the term ‘lynching’ is horribly offensive”. I took that as universally bad.

Then, whataboutism set in, where it was pointed out how many others have used the term in the past, including the newly outraged Democrats.

So the first take was modified to read “Using the term ‘lynching’ is especially horribly offensive when President does it”.

That seems to me to have moved the goalpost. But these things are never black-and-white, so I appreciate some may view it differently.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Happy to oblige.

I read the first take at outrage being “Using the term ‘lynching’ is horribly offensive”. I took that as universally bad.

Then, whataboutism set in, where it was pointed out how many others have used the term in the past, including the newly outraged Democrats.

So the first take was modified to read “Using the term ‘lynching’ is especially horribly offensive when President does it”.

That seems to me to have moved the goalpost. But these things are never black-and-white, so I appreciate some may view it differently.
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The question then becomes, is the POTUS to be held to a different standard than your average forum member or citizen? If you believe the answer is yes, then the goalposts weren't moved. He's just an exception because of his stature. If you believe the answer is no, then you're right. It's goalpost moving. I'm of the former mindset, it's the reason I don't believe my father should be POTUS...or at least I didn't until now. He couldn't be much worse.
 
Ziggurat said:
I didn't bring up the subject. Go complain to dudalb.
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I think you're in the right on this, but it is kinda telling that out of all the big, interesting, important things going on, some people being hypocrites about use of the phrase "lynch mob" is what you want to jump in and chat about.
 
kellyb said:
I think you're in the right on this, but it is kinda telling that out of all the big, interesting, important things going on, some people being hypocrites about use of the phrase "lynch mob" is what you want to jump in and chat about.
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Apparently even when I'm right, I'm wrong. That's a bull **** standard.

I'm not under any obligation to post about whatever it is anyone else wants me to post about. I don't need to address any one topic in order to be allowed to voice my opinion about another one. There are countless reasons people refrain from posting about anything in particular, and you don't get to assume what those reasons are. This is basically just a veiled ad hominem.
 
Ziggurat said:
Apparently even when I'm right, I'm wrong. That's a bull **** standard.

I'm not under any obligation to post about whatever it is anyone else wants me to post about. I don't need to address any one topic in order to be allowed to voice my opinion about another one. There are countless reasons people refrain from posting about anything in particular, and you don't get to assume what those reasons are. This is basically just a veiled ad hominem.
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I really just wish you'd contribute to meatier political topics. Seriously.

:con2:

I guess most of your views are more or less accurately described in National Review nowadays?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Trump has ordered all sanctions on Turkey lifted.
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The Kurds have completely been forgotten about within GOP circles.

The few prominent Republicans who were willing to put their heads above the parapet have seen that there's nothing to be gained by supporting America's allies - and a lot to be lost if Trump's base turns on them.

As has been pointed out upthread, President Trump is very transactional, you're only his ally if you have something to offer him right now. Past services are irrelevant and future benefits are speculative. All of the US's allies and trading partners should take note for the next 5 years at least (and possibly for significantly longer if this is the new normal).
 
kellyb said:
I really just wish you'd contribute to meatier political topics. Seriously.

:con2:
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Then you can say that without trying to insult me for not having done so to your satisfaction.

I guess most of your views are more or less accurately described in National Review nowadays?
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I wouldn't know, I don't read it, but I doubt it. I've never found a source that I think aligns with me 100%. And I suspect there are topics we agree on that you don't know we agree on because I usually don't bother to post just to agree with people.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Happy to oblige.

I read the first take at outrage being “Using the term ‘lynching’ is horribly offensive”. I took that as universally bad.

Then, whataboutism set in, where it was pointed out how many others have used the term in the past, including the newly outraged Democrats.

So the first take was modified to read “Using the term ‘lynching’ is especially horribly offensive when President does it”.

That seems to me to have moved the goalpost. But these things are never black-and-white, so I appreciate some may view it differently.
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In a thread about the Trump presidency, I think it's reasonable for the "and POTUS does it" qualifier to be assumed. YMMV
 
Belz... said:
You don't think the President of the republic comparing a legal congressional proceeding to an illegal and corrupt lynching, and insisting that it is so, is stupid and dangerous?
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I think it's politics as usual. We might like politics to not be dirty, but it is, and always has been. This isn't even a noteworthy example of such.

Did you think it was stupid and dangerous when CNN called the Benghazi investigation a lynching? Probably not. Certainly most Democrats didn't.
 
Ziggurat said:
I think it's politics as usual. We might like politics to not be dirty, but it is, and always has been. This isn't even a noteworthy example of such.
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When does it become noteworthy? When people like Mr. Steele take notice and respond? When there are demonstrations in the street? What?

Did you think it was stupid and dangerous when CNN called the Benghazi investigation a lynching?
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CNN isn't the President, but it was certainly a stupid comparison, yes. People on this forum might use it as hyperbole, but CNN should know better as a news service.
 
Ziggurat said:
Apparently even when I'm right, I'm wrong. That's a bull **** standard.

I'm not under any obligation to post about whatever it is anyone else wants me to post about. I don't need to address any one topic in order to be allowed to voice my opinion about another one. There are countless reasons people refrain from posting about anything in particular, and you don't get to assume what those reasons are. This is basically just a veiled ad hominem.
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Sure I do. And you can make similar assumptions. Why not?

The poster who only posts in a thread about Nazi's to correct people about the actual details of the SS uniform builds a reputation through such posts. Just as much as the poster who engages psychics in polite reputation of their claimed abilities. Or the person who posts one catch phrase over and over, only interrupted by laughing dog emojis.

What others are meant to assume and what others do assume is left up to others. But, on this forum we are nothing more than what we post.
 
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