The Trump Presidency: Part 18

Status
Not open for further replies.
phiwum said:
I disagree. They have to make a clear case for obstruction and that requires gathering facts including public statements but also private discussions of withholding evidence. Obstruction is ongoing and Mueller's report has already been dismissed by ther GOP, so new arguments are essential.
Click to expand...
This is crap.

Just because Mueller's conclusions about obstruction occurring have been covered up, doesn't mean they couldn't be effectively uncovered by a decent campaign.

In addition, Trump is obstructing the current investigation into extorting Zelensky every day.

And what looks to be coming out, despite the Trumpers trying to get everyone to 'look over there', is a lot more under the iceberg tip. When was the infamous phone call? A couple months ago?

Yovanovitch testimony
Yovanovitch offered significant threads of information including the possibility that Trump was directly involved in a phone call with Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, and the Ukrainians dating back to January 2018. And she pushed back on Republican suggestions that she harbored opposition to Trump.
Click to expand...
That means Trump and Giuliani pushing the whole 'Ukraine did it, not Russia' CT goes back close to two years. And who knows, maybe more.

There's a lot more here than a single phone call.
 
Last edited:
It makes imminent sense to focus Trump's actions affecting the 2020 election, at least for now.
The House must make a stand for its powers of Oversight, even if the Senate will stab it in the back.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I disagree. They have to make a clear case for obstruction and that requires gathering facts including public statements but also private discussions of withholding evidence. Obstruction is ongoing and Mueller's report has already been dismissed by ther GOP, so new arguments are essential.
Click to expand...
This is crap.

Just because Mueller's conclusions about obstruction occurring have been covered up, doesn't mean they couldn't be effectively uncovered by a decent campaign.
Click to expand...
If the average American voter were interested in truth an integrity I might agree... There is a lot that could be revealed that might make people say "whoa... Trump has done some illegal stuff".

The problem is, people often refer to sound bites, and their attention is often far too short.

Mueller did a good job at documenting some of Trump's illegal and otherwise questionable activity, but his desire to be "fair" and "play by the rules" (i.e. no little clips that would get people's attention; his "I didn't exonerate" wouldn't really do it) has meant that the impact of his work won't resonate with many of the people that we need to pay attention.
 
Trump Tweets

A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these.....

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!
 
Trump Tweets

So sad to see what is happening in New York where Governor Cuomo & Mayor DeBlasio are letting out 900 Criminals, some hardened & bad, onto the sidewalks of our rapidly declining, because of them, city. The Radical Left Dems are killing our cities. NYPD Commissioner is resigning!
 
Segnosaur said:
If the average American voter were interested in truth an integrity I might agree... There is a lot that could be revealed that might make people say "whoa... Trump has done some illegal stuff".

The problem is, people often refer to sound bites, and their attention is often far too short.

Mueller did a good job at documenting some of Trump's illegal and otherwise questionable activity, but his desire to be "fair" and "play by the rules" (i.e. no little clips that would get people's attention; his "I didn't exonerate" wouldn't really do it) has meant that the impact of his work won't resonate with many of the people that we need to pay attention.
Click to expand...

I ABSOLUTELY believe the average American is interested in truth and integrity. There's a reason that despite a fairly robust economy that Trump has the highest unfavorability ratings of any President since Nixon. They care. It's just not the only variable.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And what looks to be coming out, despite the Trumpers trying to get everyone to 'look over there', is a lot more under the iceberg tip. When was the infamous phone call? A couple months ago?

Yovanovitch testimony
That means Trump and Giuliani pushing the whole 'Ukraine did it, not Russia' CT goes back close to two years. And who knows, maybe more.

There's a lot more here than a single phone call.
Click to expand...

According to what Rick Gates told the FBI during his interviews in 2018 at the time of Robert Mueller's investigation, the whole, now thoroughly debunked "it was Ukraine that interfered in the US election" shtick began with Paul Manafort and Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian/Ukrainian political consultant with close ties to Russian intelligence.... that was back in late 2016 - early 2017, before Manafort became a person of interest in the Special Counsel's investigation.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/...cs-show-manafort-blamed-ukraine-for-dem-hacks

Gates told investigators that Manafort speculated the Ukrainians were behind the 2016 hacks of Democrats’ emails.

“Gates recalled Manafort saying the hack was likely carried out by the Ukrainians, not the Russians, which parroted a narrative Kilimnik often supported,” the 302 reads.

A related conspiracy theory is now the subject of the House’s impeachment inquiry. In his call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, Trump pressed Zelensky on a conspiracy that the hacked DNC “server” — though in reality there’s more than one — was actually in Ukraine. Such theories assert that evidence collected from the Democratic servers pinning the hacks on Russia was actually manufactured.​


And another thing..... The whole "the DNC server was taken from the USA to Ukraine" thing has to be rubbish - it just brilliantly shows up the total cyber-ignorance of Trump and his minions. Why on earth would anyone take the high risk of physically trying to smuggle a server out of the country, when they could just mirror that server to another server anywhere in the world, then destroy the original.
 
Last edited:
An interesting perspective:
Today’s great divide is not between left and right. It’s between democracy and oligarchy.
There are no longer “moderates.” There’s no longer a “center.” The most powerful force in American politics today is anti-establishment fury at a rigged system.

Four decades ago, when America had a large and growing middle class, the left wanted stronger social safety nets and more public investment in schools, roads and research. The right sought greater reliance on the free market.

In those days, a general election was like a competition between two hotdog vendors on a long boardwalk extending from left to right. To maximize sales, each had to move to the middle. If one strayed too far left or right, the other would move beside him and take all sales from the rest of the boardwalk.

This older American politics is now obsolete. As wealth and power have moved to the top and the middle class has shrunk, more Americans have joined the ranks of the working class and poor.
Click to expand...
https://www.salon.com/2019/11/04/robert-reich-the-real-divide_partner/
 
I see the divide between homogeneity and heterogeneity.

Republicans want to divide the country into US and THEM.

Democrats are much more comfortable with diversity.
 
Last edited:
The Great Zaganza said:
I see the divide between homogeneity and heterogeneity.

Republicans want to divide the country into US and THEM.

Democrats are much more comfortable with diversity.
Click to expand...

But what is the motivation for Republicans?
Are they truly believe THEM is bad, or is it just an opportunity to win?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

So sad to see what is happening in New York where Governor Cuomo & Mayor DeBlasio are letting out 900 Criminals, some hardened & bad, onto the sidewalks of our rapidly declining, because of them, city. The Radical Left Dems are killing our cities. NYPD Commissioner is resigning!
Click to expand...
I saw the tweet and wondered what was behind it.

From what I have seen:
- The release of the '900 criminals' involves the removal of bail conditions (which are often seen as discriminatory) from people awaiting trial, and not people who have been convicted
- The measure is targeted mostly at people with either misdemeanor or non-violent felonies. (There are claims that it impacts violent offenders too, but I don't see any evidence)
- A judge can still override things if they feel they will not show up for trial
- It is true that the NYPD commissioner is resigning. But it appears to be totally unrelated to this new law. (Instead it may have more to do with friction caused by the handling of a case where a policeman had harmed a suspect.)

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/11/05/trump-de-blasio-on-ny-bail-reform/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ted-announce-his-resignation-sources-n1076141
 
Belz... said:
Hasn't he been pretty vocal against anti-vaxers in the past?
Click to expand...

No, he has supported the anti-vaxxers, at least to some degree.
Maher then lent credence to anti-vaccination sentiment: “There’s all these parents who say, ‘I had a normal child, got the vaccine.’ This story keeps coming up. It seems to be more realistic to me, if we’re just going to be realistic about it. Like, it probably happens so rarely, but you can’t say it happens one in a million times because then somebody could think, ‘Well, I could be this millionth one.’ So, you scare people, so you can’t say what might be the more realistic opinion.”
Click to expand...
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-maher-vaccines_n_5dbdd430e4b0576b62a2d175
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these.....

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!
Click to expand...

Did he reveal he was copying and pasting there?
 
smartcooky said:
...

And another thing..... The whole "the DNC server was taken from the USA to Ukraine" thing has to be rubbish - it just brilliantly shows up the total cyber-ignorance of Trump and his minions. Why on earth would anyone take the high risk of physically trying to smuggle a server out of the country, when they could just mirror that server to another server anywhere in the world, then destroy the original.
Click to expand...
Yeah, why not just unhook the thing from the pipes? :p
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I see the divide between homogeneity and heterogeneity.

Republicans want to divide the country into US and THEM.

Democrats are much more comfortable with diversity.
Click to expand...

I would suggest that that's not quite the case. White supremacists are projecting that image and hijacking the Republican Party to serve their interests. The more usual authoritarian Republican are much more likely to be just following along with the "conservative" crowd, rather than actually holding a particular opinion there. Republican politicians are very much into divide and conquer tactics, though, given that they generally already know that what they are pushing cannot survive an actual "fair" fight.

I'm rather in line with the democracy vs. oligarchy view, myself, though.

Other stuff, then.

The DOJ says executive branch officials can't testify without White House lawyers. They're wrong

The OLC is pumping out more politically motivated BS that's pretty much in opposition to reality, in short.

Republicans pour money into barrage of anti-impeachment calls to House Democrats

“The fact that the calls to congressional offices, estimated to number 11,000, were partly intended to jam the phone lines of House Democrats—potentially thwarting access to government offices—was described at a recent dinner of more than a dozen Republican aides, advisers and elected officials, known as the ‘Off the Record’ dinner,” The New York Times reports. “Officials with the Republican National Committee told others at the dinner about the calls, suggesting they were automated and indicating that the aim was to tie up the phones in Democratic offices, according to two people briefed on what was said.”
Click to expand...

Republicans - working hard to abuse the system to the point where it can't work. Just one more symptom of their lack of respect for democracy.


Former Republican congressman stuns with commentary on his party's lack of courage and morality

DAVID JOLLY: These are the moments where my anger is somewhat palpable because you've just got to be honest. These are, in today's Republican Party, spineless politicians rotten to the core without virtue. Without any level of human integrity, devoid of self-respect, self-reflection, without courage, and without the moral compass to recognize their own malevolence.
Click to expand...

If only these weren't the words of a former congressman rather than a current one. If only they weren't so true.
 
Last edited:
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

So sad to see what is happening in New York Oklahoma where Governor Cuomo Stitt & Mayor DeBlasio Holt are letting out Criminals, some hardened & bad, onto the sidewalks of our rapidly declining, because of them, city state. The Radical Left Dems Right GOP are killing our cities states.
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you, Donnie. ;)

More than 400 inmates across Oklahoma were being released from prison Monday in what the governor's office calls the largest single-day mass commutation in the nation's history...The state has the highest incarceration rate in the country. Link
Click to expand...
 
More than 400 inmates across Oklahoma were being released from prison Monday in what the governor's office calls the largest single-day mass commutation in the nation's history...The state has the highest incarceration rate in the country. Link
Click to expand...
newyorkguy said:
Fixed that for you, Donnie. ;)
Click to expand...


I was going to write about the irony of this having read that story about Oklahoma yesterday. Thanks for posting this NY.
 
Maybe I should be numb to it by now, but after fifty years of Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, I still find it hard to believe -- really hard to believe -- that we have wound up with a president who conducts himself the way Trump does. Trump's basic dishonesty, his total lack of anything even approaching decency or integrity, it's absolutely shameful.
 
newyorkguy said:
Maybe I should be numb to it by now, but after fifty years of Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, I still find it hard to believe -- really hard to believe -- that we have wound up with a president who conducts himself the way Trump does. Trump's basic dishonesty, his total lack of anything even approaching decency or integrity, it's absolutely shameful.
Click to expand...

It stuns me that some people still support this turd. In all fairness, it stunned me that anyone would support him to begin with. Trump has been competing for the world's biggest liar for 30 years. He HAS NEVER EVER had a reputation for telling the truth. And it's not like it's been hard to prove his lies and general untrustworthiness.
 
Minoosh said:
I’m worried that they’ll never be able to finish if Trump keeps piling it on. Maybe that’s what Trump wants to do, run out the clock. Surely more will come.

I still have a suspicion that Senate GOP leaders already have something that could ruin Trump. Just a hunch that ex-staffers of the highest level have been quietly briefing senators and they are sitting on it for the time being. It’s a fantasy, I know, it sounds plausible to me.
Click to expand...


Of course they already have something. Them.

They could just go to Trump and tell him that there are more than enough Republican Senators who have decided that they've had all they were going to put up with, and that if an impeachment vote came to trial those Senators have stated that they would do their job and honor their obligations to the nation and vote against him.

That the best thing he could do would be to resign and get a blanket pardon from Pence. There's precedence for that.

"It's like this, Mr. President. Would you rather say 'I quit.', or would you prefer us to say 'You're fired.'"'?

But that would require some pittance of moral fiber and courage on the part of GOP politicians, and they've pretty much eliminated any such qualities from their party.
 
Last edited:
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

So sad to see what is happening in New York where Governor Cuomo & Mayor DeBlasio are letting out 900 Criminals, some hardened & bad, onto the sidewalks of our rapidly declining, because of them, city. The Radical Left Dems are killing our cities. NYPD Commissioner is resigning!
Click to expand...

Segnosaur said:
I saw the tweet and wondered what was behind it.

From what I have seen:
- The release of the '900 criminals' involves the removal of bail conditions (which are often seen as discriminatory) from people awaiting trial, and not people who have been convicted
- The measure is targeted mostly at people with either misdemeanor or non-violent felonies. (There are claims that it impacts violent offenders too, but I don't see any evidence)
- A judge can still override things if they feel they will not show up for trial
- It is true that the NYPD commissioner is resigning. But it appears to be totally unrelated to this new law. (Instead it may have more to do with friction caused by the handling of a case where a policeman had harmed a suspect.)

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/11/05/trump-de-blasio-on-ny-bail-reform/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ted-announce-his-resignation-sources-n1076141
Click to expand...

acbytesla said:
It stuns me that some people still support this turd. In all fairness, it stunned me that anyone would support him to begin with. Trump has been competing for the world's biggest liar for 30 years. He HAS NEVER EVER had a reputation for telling the truth. And it's not like it's been hard to prove his lies and general untrustworthiness.
Click to expand...

The degree to which Trump and his minions and assorted disciples are willing to turn themselves inside out, pretzel fashion, into order to distort the truth into the false narrative they want, is truly, staggeringly breathtaking!
 
Last edited:
smartcooky said:
The degree to which Trump and his minions and assorted disciples are willing to turn themselves inside out, pretzel fashion, into order to distort the truth into the false narrative they want, is truly, staggeringly breathtaking!
Click to expand...
They are simply following the directives of the US Department of Propaganda, aka Fox & Friends.
 
Aridas said:
....


Republicans pour money into barrage of anti-impeachment calls to House Democrats



Republicans - working hard to abuse the system to the point where it can't work. Just one more symptom of their lack of respect for democracy.
Click to expand...

So now they've gone from phishing tactics to DDoS attacks.

Scamming and cyber vandal attacks are now the hallmarks of republican values. Lately those aren't even the worst ones, like kids in cages as a deterrent or let's bring back as much pollution as we can while seeing how many people we can get off health care. Whats next, let's bring back leaded gasoline?

Aridas said:

Former Republican congressman stuns with commentary on his party's lack of courage and morality



If only these weren't the words of a former congressman rather than a current one. If only they weren't so true.
Click to expand...

As a current and 40 year republican, my party is basically dead to me now.
 
newyorkguy said:
Maybe I should be numb to it by now, but after fifty years of Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, I still find it hard to believe -- really hard to believe -- that we have wound up with a president who conducts himself the way Trump does. Trump's basic dishonesty, his total lack of anything even approaching decency or integrity, it's absolutely shameful.
Click to expand...

A statement by a refugee from Nazi Germany comes to mind, when he was asked as to how a highly civilized country like Germany could be taken over by somebody like Hitler:

"Hitler found a way to appeal to the schiwinehund that lies buried in every German".
 
Trump is going to make a lot of hay about the shootings of the Mormons in Northren Mexico.
I just hope he does not decide to send troops in...
 
acbytesla said:
It stuns me that some people still support this turd. In all fairness, it stunned me that anyone would support him to begin with. Trump has been competing for the world's biggest liar for 30 years. He HAS NEVER EVER had a reputation for telling the truth. And it's not like it's been hard to prove his lies and general untrustworthiness.
Click to expand...

It stuns me whenever I see one of his rallies. The attendees must have a combined IQ in the double digits.
 
I was a young, conservative Republican type until I figured out what Reaganomics was actually about. But that's beside the point.

I think Republicans are wrong with respect to balance of power in states versus federal gov't; generally hawkish foreign policy; military build-up to the detriment of other elements of society; deregulation; tax cuts for the purpose of tax cuts; etc. But that's okay. Disagreements are fine. We can gather evidence, make our cases, submit things to vote, etc., and that's how our Republic remains representative of the diverse attitudes among its citizens.

But I never thought that – like as a feature not as a bug – our Republican brothers and sisters were evil until 2016. Evil is a loaded term, but basically I mean so corrupt in clinging to power that they'd hitch their collective wagon to such as obvious criminal as Donald effing Trump. I never through I'd see my fellow "these colors don't run" patriots selling out their country and the Constitutional principles they'd been trumpeting at us for decades to defend Donald effing Trump. It never crossed my mind that the day would come that our GOP would disparage veterans, decorated military brass, DOJ, FBI, and the rule of law . . . to help freaking Vladimir Putin have his way in his lust for power in Europe and the Middle East.

It's a disgusting betrayal of what it has always meant to me to be an American.
 
The Shrike said:
I was a young, conservative Republican type until I figured out what Reaganomics was actually about. But that's beside the point.

I think Republicans are wrong with respect to balance of power in states versus federal gov't; generally hawkish foreign policy; military build-up to the detriment of other elements of society; deregulation; tax cuts for the purpose of tax cuts; etc. But that's okay. Disagreements are fine. We can gather evidence, make our cases, submit things to vote, etc., and that's how our Republic remains representative of the diverse attitudes among its citizens.

But I never thought that – like as a feature not as a bug – our Republican brothers and sisters were evil until 2016. Evil is a loaded term, but basically I mean so corrupt in clinging to power that they'd hitch their collective wagon to such as obvious criminal as Donald effing Trump. I never through I'd see my fellow "these colors don't run" patriots selling out their country and the Constitutional principles they'd been trumpeting at us for decades to defend Donald effing Trump. It never crossed my mind that the day would come that our GOP would disparage veterans, decorated military brass, DOJ, FBI, and the rule of law . . . to help freaking Vladimir Putin have his way in his lust for power in Europe and the Middle East.

It's a disgusting betrayal of what it has always meant to me to be an American.
Click to expand...

Well said. It's good to hear this from a conservative who hasn't sold his soul to Trump.
 
quadraginta said:
But that would require some pittance of moral fiber and courage on the part of GOP politicians, and they've pretty much eliminated any such qualities from their party.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. In my dreams it would be plain electoral math. But backing Trump is kind of a sunk cost to some folks. They've backed him this far, why change now? That's why I'd like there to be revelations that firmly put him beyond the pale in the eyes of more conservatives.
 
Sondland reverses himself on Ukraine, confirming quid pro quo

In his revised testimony, released Tuesday by House impeachment investigators, Sondland said that during a Sept. 1 meeting in Warsaw, Poland, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky raised his concerns to Vice President Mike Pence about the suspension of military aid.

Sondland, Trump’s ambassador to the European Union, added that he later told Andriy Yermak, a top Ukrainian national security adviser, the aid would be contingent on Trump’s desired investigations.

“After that large meeting, I now recall speaking individually with Mr. Yermak, where I said that resumption of U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks,” Sondland wrote in his addendum, which was released alongside a nearly 400-page transcript of his testimony.
Click to expand...

It's so convenient that he can now recall it, after his testimony was repeatedly contradicted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom