Stephen Miller e-mails leaked

SuburbanTurkey said:
The american ethno-nationalists seem kind of divided on the issues of whether Jewish people count as proper white folks or as "the other". Of course, budding fascists with an appreciation for their own ideology's history know that Jews are not to be tolerated, but some are starting to see that as outdated and are willing to treat Jews as just other white people. Especially when you have extremely right wing Jews, like Miller, doing such productive work for the nationalists.

The original European understanding of ethno-nationalism isn't really a perfect fit for the US. Many nationalists here don't bother differentiating between the various stocks of white Europeans the way a proper German Nazi might have, but rather just paint the lines as Western whites vs. everyone else. The trope of the scheming, cosmopolitan Jew is hard to shake, but there is growing acceptance under the American nationalist umbrella.

In a lot of ways, Israel is admired. It's a highly militarized nation with a vibrant far-right political party in control with aspirations of becoming an ethnostate.
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We are a multi-cultural nation, so the ethnostate people can play a lot more rounds of "WE will be better off without THEM" before they inevitably get to Jews.

Hispanics are popular targets now, but it wouldn't take much to make it Muslims again. Then there are gays and black people. Anti-Semitism is kinda frowned on except by the hardcore haters, as it reminds normal people of the Nazis and gives the game away early...
 
Random said:
We are a multi-cultural nation, so the ethnostate people can play a lot more rounds of "WE will be better off without THEM" before they inevitably get to Jews.

Hispanics are popular targets now, but it wouldn't take much to make it Muslims again. Then there are gays and black people. Anti-Semitism is kinda frowned on except by the hardcore haters, as it reminds normal people of the Nazis and gives the game away early...
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I think that is generally true, and you see groups like the Proud Boys that are multiracial, but I'm not sure how well that applies to the Jews specifically.

In the ideology of the nazis, both originally and in the most "pure" strains around today, the Jews play a special role in racial conflict. They aren't just one undesirable minority among many, but play the role of global puppet master. If anything, the Jews are an arch villain, rather than just another inferior race of human.

There is a very deep conflict here that has the potential to really drive factional infighting among the nationalist right.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I think that is generally true, and you see groups like the Proud Boys that are multiracial, but I'm not sure how well that applies to the Jews specifically.

In the ideology of the nazis, both originally and in the most "pure" strains around today, the Jews play a special role in racial conflict. They aren't just one undesirable minority among many, but play the role of global puppet master. If anything, the Jews are an arch villain, rather than just another inferior race of human.

There is a very deep conflict here that has the potential to really drive factional infighting among the nationalist right.
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Which should be encouraged whenever possible....
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I think that is generally true, and you see groups like the Proud Boys that are multiracial, but I'm not sure how well that applies to the Jews specifically.
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Well, the Proud Boys are, for now, a violent street gang of more ordinary sort. Granted, they could easily slip into outright white nationalism, have lots of enraged bigots in their ranks, still hate LGBT people as a group, and Gavin McGinnis should be jailed and if possible deported to Canada for creating them. But *for the moment* they aren't terrorists like the KKK, or have as wide a net as Identity Evropa or whoever.

As for Jewish people there's a bit of a disagreement on whether or not they "are actually white", as you said. The dead giveaway is usually belief in "Great Replacement", which states that it's the Jews who (for no apparent reason) are trying to wipe out the white race.

Ethiopian Jews, and other clearly nonwhite Jewish folk, are generally not considered at all.

Miller is likely seen by most, though, as a useful idiot. And even if he only has one "pure" relative...well, remember when Spencer brought up "Octaroons" in his supervillian rant?
 
Problem is some of the Trumpers here will never admit somebody is a racist unless he is wearing a white robe with a Swastike armband.
 
dudalb said:
Problem is some of the Trumpers here will never admit somebody is a racist unless he is wearing a white robe with a Swastike armband.
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Even then there are some who will make excuses for it.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Cool, so you've proven selection bias.

Crackpot blog has highly supportive, small following. That's the nature of crackpot blogs.

Only 10 responded to the question about Anatoly Karlin, and they rated him slightly lower than Sailer. Seems that he's even too nutty for the average hard-righter.

I'm not sure what you think you've shown here. Insular racists think their fringe racist blogs are really good. The general profession has low opinion of mainstream news on topics in which they are subject matter experts. None of this is shocking.
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The report shows that a small but highly informed group of experts rate Steve Sailer's blog as a reliable source for information on intelligence reporting. Steve Sailer is probably not well known outside of certain circles, but the experts who are aware of him rate him highly. The other issue you ignore is how poorly the mainstream media is rated. Why did they do so bad? The study itself states,

"The results suggest broad agreement among experts that television and radio do not provide accurate information about intelligence research."

Mycroft said:
Nobody who has been paying attention is surprised at Miller's prejudices, but Trumptards need strong evidence to be convinced.
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I'm sure that if most Trump supporters read the e-mails there would be broad agreement with the views presented. The content of the e-mails are only "sinister" and "shocking" to SJW Left.

dudalb said:
Problem is some of the Trumpers here will never admit somebody is a racist unless he is wearing a white robe with a Swastike armband.
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In today's world a "racist" is just someone who isn't afraid to tell the Truth.
 
tanabear said:
I'm sure that if most Trump supporters read the e-mails there would be broad agreement with the views presented.
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Yes, we agree. Not *all*, of course, some are just very busy, or very slow.

The content of the e-mails are only "sinister" and "shocking" to SJW Left.
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It's only the guys who think it's a horrible wrong to punch Nazi wannabes like Richard Spencer that are "shocked". You know, the type of (almost always white, here in the US) centrist that thinks that we can all just argue, even against transparently harmful people as Nazi wannabes. Wonder if they'd argue the same for child rapists and the like - since we're discussing the most disgusting people on the planet, and I'm often told (by these same white centrists) that "racist" is even more of an insult than "child rapist".

Anyway, "The left", broadly, figured out years ago that he's a white supremacist, as well as his former boss the KKKeebler Elf and his current boss Dolt 45 (the latter two had been obvious for decades, really). So did centrists who thought of it and paid attention, really.

I mean, I suppose most white supremacists and white nationalists recognized him from the start as well, like how fish school with their own - more instinct than intelligence. I mean, if you're the sort that routinely goes onto boards on the internet to write about how much they hate blacks, or "mud people" or whatever, then you'd recognize him on this, guppy-like level.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The american ethno-nationalists seem kind of divided on the issues of whether Jewish people count as proper white folks or as "the other". Of course, budding fascists with an appreciation for their own ideology's history know that Jews are not to be tolerated, but some are starting to see that as outdated and are willing to treat Jews as just other white people. Especially when you have extremely right wing Jews, like Miller, doing such productive work for the nationalists.

The original European understanding of ethno-nationalism isn't really a perfect fit for the US. Many nationalists here don't bother differentiating between the various stocks of white Europeans the way a proper German Nazi might have, but rather just paint the lines as Western whites vs. everyone else. The trope of the scheming, cosmopolitan Jew is hard to shake, but there is growing acceptance under the American nationalist umbrella.

In a lot of ways, Israel is admired. It's a highly militarized nation with a vibrant far-right political party in control with aspirations of becoming an ethnostate.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

ethno-nationalism should be understood by region and culture.

I've always had the impression that relatively recent upticks in nationalist fervor, say, since the 80s, 90s are more anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim than overtly white supremacist. There are those KKK, Neo-Nazi, neo-confederate holdovers sure but they are probably just the loudest in a sea of "moderate" nationalists because 9/11 and the wrong kind of Latino.
 
tanabear said:
In today's world a "racist" is just someone who isn't afraid to tell the Truth.
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Yes, that's how the overt racists see themselves. You know, the comments made at Thanksgiving dinner that make the kids and grandkids drop their mouths in horror and shame. "What?! I'm just telling the truth!" the racist says.
 
Venom said:
My thoughts exactly.

ethno-nationalism should be understood by region and culture.

I've always had the impression that relatively recent upticks in nationalist fervor, say, since the 80s, 90s are more anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim than overtly white supremacist.
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So they like black people(at least those who know their place like they did in the 50's)?

This seems a distinction without a difference trying to break some white supremacists off of others.
 
Mycroft said:
Categorizing racists by their different beliefs is not the same as giving them your approval.
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So what is the difference in their beliefs? Why is it say anti catholic and immigrant like the good old KKK was, but suddenly so distinct from being full on white supremacist?
 
ponderingturtle said:
So what is the difference in their beliefs? Why is it say anti catholic and immigrant like the good old KKK was, but suddenly so distinct from being full on white supremacist?
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I'm not sure to whom you are referring to or the relevance of your question, only that you were objecting to "...trying to break some white supremacists off of others."

Just because you can make distinctions among similar groups doesn't imply approval of any of them. For example, a Catholic bigot who doesn't include anti-Catholic bigotry among his hatreds is still a bigot, even if you make a distinction between him and another bigot who does include anti-Catholic bigotry amongst his hatreds.
 
Donal said:
Do we really need to read them? Is anyone surprised the Stephen Miller is a white supremacist, has a relationship with Breitbart, or is so stupid/confident that his opinions are secretly mainstream that he was willing to document them in an easily traceable medium?
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He has been linked to the minute man movement for a long time.
 
Belz... said:
That's because you don't understand turtle's philosophy, whereby nuance is a great evil.
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Apparently once you've reached the conclusion that something is morally wrong, any further thinking on the topic is also morally wrong.

An attitude that is just as cringe-worthy when you happen to agree with him as when you don't.
 
Mycroft said:
Apparently once you've reached the conclusion that something is morally wrong, any further thinking on the topic is also morally wrong.

An attitude that is just as cringe-worthy when you happen to agree with him as when you don't.
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And marking a group that believes in the superiority of the white race is not a white supremacists is helpful? Venom was marking them as not white supremacists instead of sub groupings with in white supremacy. But clearly that kind of distinction is not a meaningful one to you, with all your precision it would be morally wrong to classify all people who believe in the supremacy of the white race as white supremacists.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And marking a group that believes in the superiority of the white race is not a white supremacists is helpful? Venom was marking them as not white supremacists instead of sub groupings with in white supremacy. But clearly that kind of distinction is not a meaningful one to you, with all your precision it would be morally wrong to classify all people who believe in the supremacy of the white race as white supremacists.
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You are so very confused on so many levels.

Marking someone as a sub-group of white supremacists still marks them as white supremacists. That's how it works, sub groups of larger groups still are part of the larger group. Otherwise it wouldn't be a sub-group, it would just be a different group.

It seems like you really need to find that person who (according to you) claimed the sub-group of white supremacists aren't white supremacists and argue with them. I don't see anyone who said that in this thread, but you seem to think you saw it.
 
ponderingturtle said:
So what is the difference in their beliefs? Why is it say anti catholic and immigrant like the good old KKK was, but suddenly so distinct from being full on white supremacist?
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Because it is lead By Pro Catholics and Pro evangelicals, It's pro White nationalist anti Muslim.
It's basically pro White Christian Right, war on White Christians type.
 
Mycroft said:
You are so very confused on so many levels.

Marking someone as a sub-group of white supremacists still marks them as white supremacists.
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Go back to Venom's post, he was contrasting them to true white supremacists. You then took exception to my taking exception to not classing them as white supremacists.

Venom said:
My thoughts exactly.

ethno-nationalism should be understood by region and culture.

I've always had the impression that relatively recent upticks in nationalist fervor, say, since the 80s, 90s are more anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim than overtly white supremacist. There are those KKK, Neo-Nazi, neo-confederate holdovers sure but they are probably just the loudest in a sea of "moderate" nationalists because 9/11 and the wrong kind of Latino.
Click to expand...
 
Mycroft said:
You are so very confused on so many levels.

Marking someone as a sub-group of white supremacists still marks them as white supremacists. That's how it works, sub groups of larger groups still are part of the larger group. Otherwise it wouldn't be a sub-group, it would just be a different group.

It seems like you really need to find that person who (according to you) claimed the sub-group of white supremacists aren't white supremacists and argue with them. I don't see anyone who said that in this thread, but you seem to think you saw it.
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It's "clear", I'm sure.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Go back to Venom's post, he was contrasting them to true white supremacists. You then took exception to my taking exception to not classing them as white supremacists.
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I don't particularly agree with Venom because it seems clear to me that white supremacists have felt empowered to come out and be more vocal in the last several years, however...

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-Muslim without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-immigrant without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?

I think the answer to both of those is an obvious "yes", and that doesn't in any way condone being anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant. Further, I think it's important to be able to look at who believes what, and to make distinctions among them because without being able to look at that one couldn't possibly make any effort to counter wrong-thinking.

So, while I generally agree with you that being a bigot of any kind is wrong, I think in this exchange you're the one who is being anti-knowledge and pro-ignorance.

So please stop. Just stop.

Is Venom wrong? Maybe, but he's not wrong for making distinctions between the beliefs of different kinds of bigots because there are real distinctions in the beliefs of different kinds of bigots. You are wrong in claiming that noting these distinctions implies any kind of approval of them.
 
Mycroft said:
I don't particularly agree with Venom because it seems clear to me that white supremacists have felt empowered to come out and be more vocal in the last several years, however...

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-Muslim without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-immigrant without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?
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Of course when you are only against certain colors of immigrants as such rants tend to be they are a bit of a give away.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Of course when you are only against certain colors of immigrants as such rants tend to be they are a bit of a give away.
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You dodged the questions. Why?

In the past my country has held prejudices against white immigrants. Does you making a distinction between prejudices against white and non-white immigrants imply it's okay to be prejudiced against white immigrants? Aren't you marking a very similar distinction to the one Venom made?

Yes or no? Why or why not?
 
Mumbles said:
It's only the guys who think it's a horrible wrong to punch Nazi wannabes like Richard Spencer that are "shocked". You know, the type of (almost always white, here in the US) centrist that thinks that we can all just argue, even against transparently harmful people as Nazi wannabes. Wonder if they'd argue the same for child rapists and the like - since we're discussing the most disgusting people on the planet....
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"Nazi wannabes" are people who believe in free speech and are against foreign wars. Yes, these are the most harmful people on the planet. It isn't the neo-cons and other Interventionistas who never met a war they didn't like and are responsible for the deaths of millions.

It isn't the crime that bothers or offends the Left. It is the thought crime.

Mycroft said:
Yes, that's how the overt racists see themselves. You know, the comments made at Thanksgiving dinner that make the kids and grandkids drop their mouths in horror and shame. "What?! I'm just telling the truth!" the racist says.
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Every cult needs a way to distinguish true-believers from heretics. Whenever the Left uses the terms of racist, sexist, Nazi, Fascist, white supremacists etc., it is their way of labeling infidels. If the beliefs or arguments of "racists" were wrong then you would not have to label then. You could simply demonstrate where they are wrong in a Socratic dialogue kind of way. But the Left can't do this. So they take the arguments out the intellectual realm and move them over to the moral realm. If you believe so-and-so you are a bad person irrespective of whether or not you are telling the Truth.

Belz... said:
How liberating that must be.
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"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
 
tanabear said:
Every cult needs a way to distinguish true-believers from heretics. Whenever the Left uses the terms of racist, sexist, Nazi, Fascist, white supremacists etc., it is their way of labeling infidels. If the beliefs or arguments of "racists" were wrong then you would not have to label then. You could simply demonstrate where they are wrong in a Socratic dialogue kind of way. But the Left can't do this. So they take the arguments out the intellectual realm and move them over to the moral realm. If you believe so-and-so you are a bad person irrespective of whether or not you are telling the Truth.
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I think you should name some of these beliefs that have marked you as an infidel to the leftist cult. That way we can all understand the true nature of your persecution.
 
Mycroft said:
Is Venom wrong? Maybe, but he's not wrong for making distinctions between the beliefs of different kinds of bigots because there are real distinctions in the beliefs of different kinds of bigots. You are wrong in claiming that noting these distinctions implies any kind of approval of them.
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Anti-Semitism seem to be a potential wedge issue in conflicting right-wing ideologies. There is a wing that insists on Jews being the overarching enemy, the fountain head of loathing. Another kind of sees Jews as special friends, with a strong Israel a harbinger of the End Times that some evangelical Christians are fervently hoping for. I can see that the two groups might sometimes forge temporary alliances, but I'm not sure this key difference could be resolved.

It makes me wonder when Trump will be challenged by a full-on Nazi on the far right.

ETA: Maybe it comes down to which people count as "white."
 
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Minoosh said:
It makes me wonder when Trump will be challenged by a full-on Nazi on the far right.

ETA: Maybe it comes down to which people count as "white."
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Once they've destroyed their common enemies on the left, then they can argue amongst themselves over who qualifies as white and how Jews should be regarded.

I wonder if it isn't recent advances in leftist policies, the acceptance of gay marriage and such, that convinced moderates on the right that they need to embrace the far right to hold their ground.
 
Mycroft said:
Once they've destroyed their common enemies on the left, then they can argue amongst themselves over who qualifies as white and how Jews should be regarded.

I wonder if it isn't recent advances in leftist policies, the acceptance of gay marriage and such, that convinced moderates on the right that they need to embrace the far right to hold their ground.
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Given that they've embraced similar views for well over a century - and screamed that "librul" (meaning democrats, including the great majority of conservative black and Jewish people - and more recently conservative Asian, Hispanic, and Muslim people as well) was "fake" or "Identity politics", they were either being supremely ignorant on the matter, or themselves disingenuous. That's why they've not only rejected "small" government for these groups groups, but openly championed overwhelming, oppressive and violent government for many of them.

"Wow, I'm shocked to find that our embrace of systematic government bigotry has attracted a bunch of Nazi-loving goons!" They can cram it where the sun doesn't shine.
 
Remarkable how little uproar actually occurred after this episode. Partly, that's due to the news about impeachment taking all the press attention and the fact that, really, no one is surprised that Miller advocates nationalist views.

What a shame that this story has caused no real response from any Senate Republicans however. They don't even bother saying that Miller's views are disreputable and he's the wrong man to advise on immigration policy.
 
Mycroft said:
You dodged the questions. Why?

In the past my country has held prejudices against white immigrants. Does you making a distinction between prejudices against white and non-white immigrants imply it's okay to be prejudiced against white immigrants? Aren't you marking a very similar distinction to the one Venom made?

Yes or no? Why or why not?
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Bah only if you think those swarthy Germans are really white, I agree with Ben Franklin and say they are not!

I mean it isn't like there is some absolute definition of white.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Bah only if you think those swarthy Germans are really white, I agree with Ben Franklin and say they are not!

I mean it isn't like there is some absolute definition of white.
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Sarcasm is a poor substitute for reason.
 
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