House Impeachment Inquiry

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Armitage72 said:
Fake news!! Trump himself said that support for impeachment had plummeted since the hearings started. Surely he wouldn't lie to the public.
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It should have been predictable that Trump would bring himself and his party to the point that their political survival absolutely depends on lying to the public.
 
phiwum said:
I'm not saying that he had good reason to withhold the aid nor that he withheld it for any reason other than his own political self-interest.

I'm only saying that he did not admit that he withheld the aid in order to persuade (extort, if you prefer) Ukraine to announce either of the investigations.

I'm sure you and I agree that's why he did it. My question is whether he's actually publicly admitted to it.
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We are,indeed, agreed. My point was that his excuse (Ukraine corruption) is proved false by the fact the Pentagon had already cleared that requirement. Therefore, there was clearly another motivation to withhold the money...one the GOP refuse to admit.
 
Horatius said:
Which of course highlights how Trump being a "businessman" doesn't help him run the government. Delay tactics might work against Bob's Gold Plumbing Co., because Bob is a small businessman who has limited resources for going to court. But this time he's not suing Bob, he's suing one part of the US government. They have as close to unlimited resources as exists in the real world. So let him delay it right up to the Supreme Court. After that, there's nowhere else to go.
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Its true... the government does have more resources to fight lawsuits involving Trump, so Trump can't just expect to 'outspend' his opponents.

However, the fact that he is president gives him an advantage in that many of the lawsuits are case sensitive and can take months or years to work their way though the court system.

For example, Trump's recent victory in the supreme court (which prevents the release of his financial records to congress) means that things like violations of the emoluments clause probably can't be included in any impeachment proceedings, even if the supreme court later rules that they should be turned over to congress.

And legal arguments over the release of the Mueller report won't begin until January, which means that at least some evidence of Trump's obstruction of justice and/or perjury wouldn't be available for the house to vote on.
 
Looks like they're scheduling out the next steps:

The House Judiciary Committee has scheduled its first impeachment hearing next week as the House moves another step closer to impeaching President Donald Trump.

The committee announced that it would hold a hearing December 4 on the "constitutional grounds for presidential impeachment," which will have a panel of expert witnesses who will testify
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Trump does get to have legal counsel present and able to participate:

House Democratic aides said Tuesday that the President's counsel will be able to participate in the hearing.
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It starts with:

The Democratic aides said the first hearing was a "legal hearing" that would include some history of impeachment, as well as evaluating the seriousness of the allegations and the evidence against the President.
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Armitage72 said:
Fake news!! Trump himself said that support for impeachment had plummeted since the hearings started. Surely he wouldn't lie to the public.
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Well to be fair, on 538's tracking it did drop to 46.3% for to 45.6% against, but it's back up to 48.4% for to 43.9% against.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Well to be fair, on 538's tracking it did drop to 46.3% for to 45.6% against, but it's back up to 48.4% for to 43.9% against.
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You know, sometimes there are things that my brain just can't compute, and I realise that perhaps it's just my limited experience or perspective, but I don't understand how 44% of the US population can miss the criminality, abuse of power and seriousness of what the President has done. Are we really living in two different realities where the same facts don't necessarily apply?
 
Belz... said:
You know, sometimes there are things that my brain just can't compute, and I realise that perhaps it's just my limited experience or perspective, but I don't understand how 44% of the US population can miss the criminality, abuse of power and seriousness of what the President has done. Are we really living in two different realities where the same facts don't necessarily apply?
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I don't think most of that 44% do miss the criminality, abuse of power and seriousness of what the President has done. They just don't care about it.
 
plague311 said:
URL="https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/26/politics/judiciary-committee-hearing/index.html"]Looks like they're scheduling out the next steps[/URL]:
The House Judiciary Committee has scheduled its first impeachment hearing next week as the House moves another step closer to impeaching President Donald Trump.

The committee announced that it would hold a hearing December 4 on the "constitutional grounds for presidential impeachment," which will have a panel of expert witnesses who will testify

Trump does get to have legal counsel present and able to participate:
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Please lord satan, let it be Giuliani, just for the comedic value!

On one hand, having actual intelligent people (i.e. an actual lawyer) involved (rather than 'Gym' Jordan and Devin "Sue the cow" Nunes) might mean the proceedings become more fact-based.
 
Re: people who continue to support trump, even though there is evidence of criminal behavior...
Belz... said:
Same question, then: how is that even possible? It impacts their lives, in the end, if government is not held accountable.
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Because Trump gives them something that they wouldn't get from the Democrats. For the majority of voters, that probably means racism.
 
Belz... said:
Same question, then: how is that even possible? It impacts their lives, in the end, if government is not held accountable.
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Really? You can't understand how Trump supporters don't care? Why should they care about anything he does now when they haven't in the past?

ETA: People tend to think about NOW, not the future. As long as they're getting what they want from Trump NOW, they don't think about the consequences in the future. They're the kids who'd rather have one piece of candy now than two pieces tomorrow.
 
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Belz... said:
Same question, then: how is that even possible? It impacts their lives, in the end, if government is not held accountable.
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You know what they say, perception is key. If they don't perceive that the impact on their lives is negative, then what's the problem? As some have pointed out, a lot of these people are just happy with a "pwning of the libz". They view this more as Trump making people mad because he's so awesome, and now they're (teh libz) are trying to exact their revenge.
 
Stacyhs said:
Really? You can't understand how Trump supporters don't care? Why should they care about anything he does now when they haven't in the past?

ETA: People tend to think about NOW, not the future. As long as they're getting what they want from Trump NOW, they don't think about the the consequences in the future. They're the kids who'd rather have one piece of candy now than two pieces tomorrow.
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Or, zero pieces of Candy, as long as the family with the dark colored skin doesn't get any candy either.

Or zero pieces of candy now, on the promise that they will get so much candy in the future that they won't know what to do with it all, even if the person offering the candy never actually follows through.
 
Segnosaur said:
Or, zero pieces of Candy, as long as the family with the dark colored skin doesn't get any candy either.

Or zero pieces of candy now, on the promise that they will get so much candy in the future that they won't know what to do with it all, even if the person offering the candy never actually follows through.
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Or in some cases, even makes their situation worse (trying to take away medical care).
 
plague311 said:
Looks like they're scheduling out the next steps:

Trump does get to have legal counsel present and able to participate:

It starts with:
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So who was the GOP attorney in the open hearings id not Trump's attorney? :rolleyes:

I don't expect any stronger of a case for the defendant. Especially with this:
Re links to the Rudy fiasco, there's a lot there. Like the Mueller case, people around Trump shouldn't get too cocky. He might be impeached before he can pardon them. Worse for them, Trump loses interest when there's nothing in it for him.

Law&Crime (Dan Abrams): ‘Everything Is Connected’: Ukrainian Gas Company’s CEO Willing to Testify Against Rudy Giuliani
The CEO of Ukraine’s state-owned gas and oil company Naftogaz said on Friday that he would be willing to provide testimony to U.S. federal prosecutors currently investigating Rudy Giuliani’s foreign business dealings in the region....

As previously reported by Law&Crime, federal authorities are looking into whether Giuliani and his recently indicted business associates/clients, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, were attempting to leverage their political influence in Ukraine to land lucrative contracts with Naftogaz, the country’s state-owned oil and gas company.

Parnas and Fruman were arrested in October and charged for illegally funneling foreign political donations to Republican U.S. election candidates in violation of federal campaign finance laws. The two Soviet-born Florida businessmen were allegedly attempting to oust Kobolyev from his position at Naftogaz and have him replaced with someone more inclined to benefit them financially. This has previously been described as a “shakedown.”

Giuliani, who is reportedly suspected of violating federal campaign finance and federal lobbying laws through his work with Parnas and Fruman, has not been charged with a crime.
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Time: Exclusive: CEO of Ukraine State Gas Firm Preparing to Testify in Giuliani Probe
Federal prosecutors are investigating Giuliani for possible campaign finance violations and illegal lobbying, according to reports published in the past week by Bloomberg and the Wall Street Journal, both of which cited unnamed U.S. officials and sources familiar with the matter.

These reports claimed that the investigation stems from a federal case against two of Giuliani’s associates, Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas, who were indicted last month for allegedly violating campaign finance laws. Giuliani has not been charged with any wrongdoing.
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If it's not about Trump, it's about the money, or both:
The planned closed-door testimony from Kobolyev, which has not previously been reported, could shed light on recent allegations from U.S. and Ukrainian energy executives that Parnas and Fruman tried to use their connections to Giuliani and the Trump Administration to replace the leadership of Naftogaz, which had resisted their efforts to land a lucrative gas deal in Ukraine.
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And here Rudy thinks Trump won't throw him under the bus, because Rudy has an insurance policy. :ROFL:


Crooks & Liars: Lordy, There Are Tapes: Parnas Hands Over Audio And Video To House Intelligence Committee
Lordy, there are tapes. Audio and video tapes. And photos. And they include both Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump, among others. ABC News is reporting that Lev Parnas, an associate of Rudy Giuliani, has handed over documents, photos and recordings to the House Intelligence Committee. It is unclear what the recordings include, or how they could implicate Giuliani or Trump.

Parnas' attorney, Joe Bondy, just last week made it clear that Parnas planned to comply with any subpoena issued, and had no loyalty to either Trump or Giuliani.
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Again my apologies if its been posted. I am pages behind.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Well to be fair, on 538's tracking it did drop to 46.3% for to 45.6% against, but it's back up to 48.4% for to 43.9% against.
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They updated about an hour after I posted, it's now 49.0% for to 43.5% against.
 
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PhantomWolf said:
They updated about an hour after I posted, it's now 49.0% for to 43.5% against.
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Don't count your chickens before round two.

AP News: Profit, not politics: Trump allies sought Ukraine gas deal
Last month's news but the 'Lordy there are tapes' testimony is new and already in the House's hands. This little pot that's was only simmering on the stove is about to boil over. Remember, you heard it first in my post. :p

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — As Rudy Giuliani was pushing Ukrainian officials last spring to investigate one of Donald Trump’s main political rivals, a group of individuals with ties to the president and his personal lawyer were also active in the former Soviet republic.

Their aims were profit, not politics. This circle of businessmen and Republican donors touted connections to Giuliani and Trump while trying to install new management at the top of Ukraine’s massive state gas company. Their plan was to then steer lucrative contracts to companies controlled by Trump allies, according to two people with knowledge of their plans.

Their plan hit a snag after Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko lost his reelection bid to Volodymyr Zelenskiy, whose conversation with Trump about former Vice President Joe Biden is now at the center of the House impeachment inquiry of Trump.

But the effort to install a friendlier management team at the helm of the gas company, Naftogaz, would soon be taken up with Ukraine’s new president by U.S. Energy Secretary Rick Perry, whose slate of candidates included a fellow Texan who is one of Perry’s past political donors.
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Belz... said:
Same question, then: how is that even possible? It impacts their lives, in the end, if government is not held accountable.
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Don't equate "anti-impeachment" and "pro-Trump." I think a lot of people just hope the election will do the trick and see impeachment as too risky.

But given all the election interference, voter suppression etc. there's a risk in not impeaching as well.
 
Belz... said:
You know, sometimes there are things that my brain just can't compute, and I realise that perhaps it's just my limited experience or perspective, but I don't understand how 44% of the US population can miss the criminality, abuse of power and seriousness of what the President has done. Are we really living in two different realities where the same facts don't necessarily apply?
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Basically 40 odd percent of the US electorate see Trump as one of them. A normal guy who done good. He talks like they do, they bought into the Apprentice fantasy version of Trump (a brash fast talking, self made millionaire businessman) and they rationalise away the fact that Trump cheats and lies etc, because ALL politicians cheat and lie. Trumps just getting a much harder time for it. I think that its partly that and partly partisanship that explains his unwavering level of support.

I'd wager a good chunk of that 40% just like hearing simple solutions to complicated problems. Trump is an anathema to rational critical thinkers, but critical thinking these days doesn't seem to be widely practiced.

At least that's how my brain computers Trumps continued support.
 
Nice update for the clowns who still think this latest circus will lead to anything but whooosh-goes-the-boomerang: Hunting for Hunter: Evidence Reveals Biden, Burisma Ukraine Bond Scandal, Tied to U.S. Firm

Includes this fun item about the prosecutor general who followed the one Biden got fired by pressuring Porky with withholding aid, Lutsenko: Drunk Ukrainian politician detained at Frankfurt airport

thelocal.de said:
An intoxicated Ukrainian Interior Minister Yuriy Lutsenko and his son Oleksandr caused a scene at the Frankfurt airport this week when a German Lufthansa pilot refused to allow them onto a plane, daily Bild reported on Wednesday. [...]
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Skeptic Ginger said:
So who was the GOP attorney in the open hearings id not Trump's attorney? :rolleyes:

I don't expect any stronger of a case for the defendant. Especially with this:
Re links to the Rudy fiasco, there's a lot there. Like the Mueller case, people around Trump shouldn't get too cocky. He might be impeached before he can pardon them. Worse for them, Trump loses interest when there's nothing in it for him.

Law&Crime (Dan Abrams): ‘Everything Is Connected’: Ukrainian Gas Company’s CEO Willing to Testify Against Rudy Giuliani

Time: Exclusive: CEO of Ukraine State Gas Firm Preparing to Testify in Giuliani Probe

If it's not about Trump, it's about the money, or both:

And here Rudy thinks Trump won't throw him under the bus, because Rudy has an insurance policy. :ROFL:

Crooks & Liars: Lordy, There Are Tapes: Parnas Hands Over Audio And Video To House Intelligence Committee

Again my apologies if its been posted. I am pages behind.
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There's some mouth-watering stuff in there, especially the offer of evidence by the Naftogaz CEO. Presumably Naftogaz have conducted an enquiry into Giuliani's activities in Ukraine, so we have the prospect of an actual Ukrainian investigation providing actual evidence of Giuliani's actual corrupt activities in connection with a Ukrainian energy company. With Parnas chipping-in his two-cents worth - Hell hath no fury like a Ukrainian scorned, it seems.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Nice update for the clowns who still think this latest circus will lead to anything but whooosh-goes-the-boomerang: Hunting for Hunter: Evidence Reveals Biden, Burisma Ukraine Bond Scandal, Tied to U.S. Firm

Includes this fun item about the prosecutor general who followed the one Biden got fired by pressuring Porky with withholding aid, Lutsenko: Drunk Ukrainian politician detained at Frankfurt airport
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Desperation sets in. All you can draw is wild inferences.
 
CapelDodger said:
There's some mouth-watering stuff in there, especially the offer of evidence by the Naftogaz CEO. Presumably Naftogaz have conducted an enquiry into Giuliani's activities in Ukraine, so we have the prospect of an actual Ukrainian investigation providing actual evidence of Giuliani's actual corrupt activities in connection with a Ukrainian energy company. With Parnas chipping-in his two-cents worth - Hell hath no fury like a Ukrainian scorned, it seems.
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I know right. It appears there is a leak in the dam. I heard about Naftogaz in the last few days but it was rather vague.

Now it's clearing up, pure corruption, nothing fancy like incriminating Biden, nope, but a big money deal, yep.

The news is filling with reports.

CNN
An executive of Ukraine's state-owned oil-and-gas company said two associates of Rudy Giuliani boasted of their ties to Giuliani and the US government when they pitched a plan to change the gas company's management and remove the then-US ambassador to Ukraine.

Andrew Favorov, a senior executive with Naftogaz, said he met with Giuliani's associates Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman during an energy conference in Houston in March. Favorov said it was clear the two men were plotting to pursue natural gas deals in Ukraine to further their own business interests. He said they suggested that their connections to the US government and Giuliani would help them negotiate such deals.

Favorov, who is cooperating in a US Justice Department probe of Giuliani, said Parnas and Fruman tried to recruit him to replace the CEO of Naftogaz, which he described as a "stunning offer."
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These guys have no reason not to tell what they know. And at least one of Rudy's friends is singing like a bird.

CNN: Prosecutors in Giuliani investigation interested in talking to Ukrainian energy company
Naftogaz stands at the center of an effort by Giuliani associates Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, and their purported natural-gas company, Global Energy Producers, to replace Naftogaz's chief executive officer with someone who would be more beneficial to their own business interests earlier this year.

They pursued that outcome, CNN has reported, around the same time they were working with Giuliani, President Donald Trump's personal attorney, to encourage Ukranian officials to investigate Trump's political rival, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden. They were also actively pushing to have the US ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, removed.

An American energy consultant who operates in Ukraine, Dale Perry, described the efforts to oust Naftogaz's CEO, Andriy Kobolyev, who is known for his anti-corruption reforms at the company. At an energy conference in Houston last March, Parnas and Fruman asked a senior Naftogaz executive Andrew Favorov if he would go along with their plan to oust the company's current CEO and become its head, according to Perry, who is Favorov's former business partner.
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Yeah right, Trump was a corruption crusader. :rolleyes:

And here I thought Giuliani was a goof-ball through and through. Turns out he can't keep his mouth shut in a news interview but he has some serious wheeling and dealing going on here.

Propublica: Giuliani Was Close to a Podcast Deal With the News Outlet That Spread His Ukraine Conspiracies

Guess who with: John Solomon, the alt-right CT pusher who just left The Hill.
The president’s lawyer was negotiating a possible deal to co-produce a podcast with the publication — and The Hill’s John Solomon helped with the talks even as his articles were used in a disinformation campaign.
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This is a deep deep hole.
 
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Belz... said:
Except that he could still just ignore the judgment. What is Congress going to do? Arrest the President?
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Now that is a really interesting question.

Being honest, I have not the foggiest. And I am almost certain nobody else does either. But some think they do. Trumpepathy, i suppose. Or whatever term one desires to conjure out of bigliness.

End of the day, what is most disturbing about all of it is how fast America has sprinted from the first world to the third world.

It's a little disturbing how the USA can transition from world leader to useless. And people want that. That is likely the most difficult part.

Now there are various Trumpistas on this very site. I am given to wonder why it is that they seem determined to wreck their own country.

And the killer is that they know that they are intentionally doing it.

From a European perspective, I don't care anymore. Pull out all of the stops. If the yanks are determined the self immolate then let them. The other 95% humanity should watch out for itself. America is not coming to the rescue because it is broken. One cannot rehabilitate a corpse, last I heard
 
abaddon said:
Now that is a really interesting question.

Being honest, I have not the foggiest. And I am almost certain nobody else does either. But some think they do. Trumpepathy, i suppose. Or whatever term one desires to conjure out of bigliness.

End of the day, what is most disturbing about all of it is how fast America has sprinted from the first world to the third world.

It's a little disturbing how the USA can transition from world leader to useless. And people want that. That is likely the most difficult part.

Now there are various Trumpistas on this very site. I am given to wonder why it is that they seem determined to wreck their own country.

And the killer is that they know that they are intentionally doing it.

From a European perspective, I don't care anymore. Pull out all of the stops. If the yanks are determined the self immolate then let them. The other 95% humanity should watch out for itself. America is not coming to the rescue because it is broken. One cannot rehabilitate a corpse, last I heard
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Your post reminds me of this article:
4. “Some Men Just Want to Watch the World Burn.”

Some people are supporting Trump simply to be rebellious or to introduce chaos into the political system. They may have such distaste for the establishment and democrats like Hillary Clinton that their support for Trump is a symbolic middle finger directed at Washington. These people may have other issues, like an innate desire to troll others or an obsession with schadenfreude.
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I don't think this describes all of the Trumpsters but it does describe some of them. I think many of them are just loving how much Trump pisses off liberals, and that takes primacy over any and all other issues. They see the consequences, but that is just collateral damage in pursuit of higher aspirations.
 
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