Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

 International Skeptics Forum Acceptance of Gender Diversity

 Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
 29th November 2019, 12:49 AM #321 Robin Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,396 Originally Posted by arthwollipot Yes! Now you're getting it. . I am puzzled as to why you could think I could be getting it, as opposed to being more confused by it all than ever. __________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
 29th November 2019, 12:58 AM #322 Robin Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,396 We have Category A which means nothing more than that a person has decided to adopt the label Category A. And Category B which means nothing else besides the fact that a person has decided to adopt the label Category B. How are Category A and Category B not interchangeable? __________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
 29th November 2019, 06:41 AM #324 Darat Lackey Administrator     Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 89,395 Originally Posted by arthwollipot You are saying that there are only two genders, then going on to explain that you actually think that there are more than two genders. Those two statements directly contradict each other - I can't see any way of interpreting them otherwise. From my point of view it looks like you are defending your right to acknowledge that there are more than two genders by saying "there are only two genders" and that doesn't make sense to me, so I must be severely misinterpreting what you're saying. Or there are two genders but how those are expressed and defined can vary. __________________ I wish I knew how to quit you
 29th November 2019, 08:31 AM #325 Belz... Fiend God     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,847 Originally Posted by arthwollipot Someone who is male will identify and/or express as male. Someone who is female will identify and/or express as female. That sounds very circular. __________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward
 29th November 2019, 08:37 AM #326 Belz... Fiend God     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,847 Originally Posted by arthwollipot Well here's the thing. You don't really need to know someone else's gender. You just need to know what pronouns they would like you to use, and the best way to find that out is to ask. Why would you need pronouns? When you talk to someone, you use "you" and the person's name. Or, alternatively, "hey". The third-person pronouns don't get much use there. Originally Posted by arthwollipot No, I strongly feel that I am male. How can you tell? Quote: It sounds to me like using they/them as a default would be a good policy for you to adopt unless you're sure. Or we could use the good old way of doing it and be correct 99.5% of the time. Works for me. __________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward
 29th November 2019, 09:12 AM #327 Belz... Fiend God     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,847 Originally Posted by Darat Or there are two genders but how those are expressed and defined can vary. That sounds way too reasonable. __________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward
 29th November 2019, 09:22 AM #328 MisAndreG New Blood   Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 3 Originally Posted by caveman1917 $P \wedge \neg P$ Sounds dodgy, being a contradiction and all. What does the P stuff mean?
 29th November 2019, 09:31 AM #329 sphenisc Philosopher     Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,022 Originally Posted by MisAndreG What does the P stuff mean? I think it means some pee standing up and some sit down to pee. __________________ "The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
 29th November 2019, 09:57 AM #331 Steve Philosopher     Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,507 Originally Posted by Darat Or there are two genders but how those are expressed and defined can vary. Originally Posted by Belz... That sounds way too reasonable. __________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
 29th November 2019, 11:28 AM #332 MisAndreG New Blood   Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 3 Originally Posted by sphenisc I think it means some pee standing up and some sit down to pee. It’s a logical notation but I don’t know what he is saying. P and not P to answer “what you think your gender is?”...
 29th November 2019, 11:30 AM #333 Belz... Fiend God     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,847 Originally Posted by MisAndreG It’s a logical notation but I don’t know what he is saying. P and not P to answer “what you think your gender is?”... I think he's just saying that it's either one or the other. In other words, a binary. __________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward
 29th November 2019, 12:31 PM #334 caveman1917 Philosopher   Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,858 $P \vee \neg P$ is a logical axiom/theorem (the law of the excluded middle) therefor its negation $P \wedge \neg P$ is a logical contradiction. I was pointing out the meaninglessness of defining "gender" as "your gender is whatever you think it is" by making my "gender" a logical contradiction. __________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin Last edited by caveman1917; 29th November 2019 at 12:34 PM.
 29th November 2019, 12:40 PM #335 Belz... Fiend God     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,847 Originally Posted by caveman1917 $P \vee \neg P$ is a logical axiom/theorem (the law of the excluded middle) therefor its negation $P \wedge \neg P$ is a logical contradiction. I was pointing out the meaninglessness of defining "gender" as "your gender is whatever you think it is" by making my "gender" a logical contradiction. Well, I got it wrong. __________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward
 29th November 2019, 12:58 PM #336 caveman1917 Philosopher   Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,858 Originally Posted by Belz... Well, I got it wrong. Sorry, I thought it was rather obvious. __________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
 29th November 2019, 01:13 PM #337 Belz... Fiend God     Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 87,847 Originally Posted by caveman1917 Sorry, I thought it was rather obvious. Maybe to smart people, but I'm an idiot. __________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward
 29th November 2019, 01:14 PM #338 MisAndreG New Blood   Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 3 Originally Posted by caveman1917 $P \vee \neg P$ is a logical axiom/theorem (the law of the excluded middle) therefor its negation $P \wedge \neg P$ is a logical contradiction. I was pointing out the meaninglessness of defining "gender" as "your gender is whatever you think it is" by making my "gender" a logical contradiction. Ahh, thank you.
 29th November 2019, 02:05 PM #339 Thor 2 Philosopher     Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,830 Originally Posted by caveman1917 $P \wedge \neg P$ Sounds dodgy, being a contradiction and all. Originally Posted by MisAndreG What does the P stuff mean? Originally Posted by sphenisc I think it means some pee standing up and some sit down to pee. Originally Posted by caveman1917 $P \vee \neg P$ is a logical axiom/theorem (the law of the excluded middle) therefor its negation $P \wedge \neg P$ is a logical contradiction. I was pointing out the meaninglessness of defining "gender" as "your gender is whatever you think it is" by making my "gender" a logical contradiction. I liked sphenisc's explanation best. __________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.
 29th November 2019, 03:11 PM #340 p0lka Graduate Poster   Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,721 Originally Posted by Belz... Well, I got it wrong. you didn't, it literally translates to 'p or not p', a binary choice. Their point was that it excluded the middle. They're correct, 'p or not p' versus 'p or not p' doesn't make a lot of logical sense when there's a middle that isn't p. EDIT: damn, i missed the 'and', sorry. Last edited by p0lka; 29th November 2019 at 03:25 PM.

International Skeptics Forum