2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker - Part II

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He might be, but he's not electable. Way too many otherwise liberal Americans, including my wife, are uncomfortable with a gay President.
It would help if those uncomfortable with voting for a homosexual are open about that.
I don't care about it, so I am left to guess how much of a liability it would be if he got the nomination. Honestly expressed hesitance helps to get an idea of how much of a drawback his sexuality will be; I would hate to nominate him thinking it will be a non-issue only to find out that a lot of voters had a secret prejudice the day after the election.
 
You know, the Democrats used to be the "fall in love" party, and the Republicans the "fall in line" party, and I wonder if the roles haven't switched to a certain degree. Hillary was a "fall in line" candidate and Biden would be as well. Kerry in 2004 was not the candidate the Democrats fell in love with (that was Howard Dean). Gore was another "fall in line" candidate. Only Obama fits the "fall in love" type, since the turn of the millennium.


I notice you only elaborated with respect to the Democrats, not the GOP, but here, let me help you:

The GOP has become the Fall for a Con Man party.

You're Welcome!
 
What's interesting to me about it is that it's a measurable prediction. We can watch Buttigieg's trend, and see how closely it matches the prediction.
Good point, but who does serious political follow up these days. Maybe it's up to us!

We can also consider her hypothesis more generally - whether the Democratic primary is a process of considering each of the alternatives to Biden in turn - and what other evidence for and against we might look for.

Hypothesis? Isn't that, by definition, what a primary campaign is? If not, how else would you characterize it?
 
I don't care if the nominee likes to have sex with knotholes in trees, as long as he, she or it beats Trump!

What kind of tree, though?

Buttgieg's being gay is literally the only interesting and appealing thing about him. And even then he's not very interesting about it. He's a khaki-pants gay, totally assimilated to the heteronormative world. Yawn, bring a book. I bet he's never even been spanked in public by a leather daddy. Buttgieg's a safe, boring gay that appeals to straight people because he's as dull as they are.
 
Buttgieg's being gay is literally the only interesting and appealing thing about him. And even then he's not very interesting about it.

Yeah but that's reaaaaaaal important if you're not running a campaign but fighting just one battle in an on-going culture war you think everyone is just as invested in as you are.

The Democrats aren't going to be happy until they can find a black lesbian transgender immigrant Muslim in a wheelchair with Aspergers who was a school shooting survivor to run against Trump.
 
Good point, but who does serious political follow up these days. Maybe it's up to us!



Hypothesis? Isn't that, by definition, what a primary campaign is? If not, how else would you characterize it?

The vast majority of primaries are not defined as a process of considering alternatives to Biden and then nominating Biden.
 
What kind of tree, though?

Buttgieg's being gay is literally the only interesting and appealing thing about him. And even then he's not very interesting about it. He's a khaki-pants gay, totally assimilated to the heteronormative world. Yawn, bring a book. I bet he's never even been spanked in public by a leather daddy. Buttgieg's a safe, boring gay that appeals to straight people because he's as dull as they are.

I don't think he's dull. I think he's smart.

I have a theory that often the public is looking for the opposite of what they just had. Trump was a reaction to Obama. Carter was a reaction to Nixon and Reagan was a reaction to Carter.

Say what you want about Mayor Pete, he's the opposite of Trump in almost every way.
 
Yeah but that's reaaaaaaal important if you're not running a campaign but fighting just one battle in an on-going culture war you think everyone is just as invested in as you are.

The Democrats aren't going to be happy until they can find a black lesbian transgender immigrant Muslim in a wheelchair with Aspergers who was a school shooting survivor to run against Trump.

I missed the bit where I said it was important, am fighting a "culture war", represent "the Democrats", or give a crap about whatever ridiculous strawman you're attributing to me because you always always always project all your bugbears on whoever spoke last. I speak for myself alone, and I think you'd do well to adopt the same strategy.
 
I don't think he's dull. I think he's smart.

I have a theory that often the public is looking for the opposite of what they just had. Trump was a reaction to Obama. Carter was a reaction to Nixon and Reagan was a reaction to Carter.

Say what you want about Mayor Pete, he's the opposite of Trump in almost every way.

Tonedeaf white guy born into money. Yeah, he's lightyears away from Trump.
 
I missed the bit where I said it was important, am fighting a "culture war", represent "the Democrats", or give a crap about whatever ridiculous strawman you're attributing to me because you always always always project all your bugbears on whoever spoke last. I speak for myself alone, and I think you'd do well to adopt the same strategy.

I was bouncing off your post, not making a direct rebuttal to you. I should have made that clearer.
 
Tonedeaf white guy born into money. Yeah, he's lightyears away from Trump.

People generally don't think the children of professors are born into money.

Bob nailed you on that.

I'd say Pete is light years away from Trump. He's not a bully. He's not a narcissist. He's middle American. Polite and kind who has a history of serving others. Trump only has a history of serving himself. He's an intellectual who demonstrates the value of an education. Trump can hardly read. He's a veteran, not a draft dodger. Trump mangles his own language while Mayor Pete speaks 6 languages.

Is your big complaint that he's white?
 
Bob nailed you on that.

I'd say Pete is light years away from Trump. He's not a bully. He's not a narcissist. He's middle American. Polite and kind who has a history of serving others. Trump only has a history of serving himself. He's an intellectual who demonstrates the value of an education. Trump can hardly read. He's a veteran, not a draft dodger. Trump mangles his own language while Mayor Pete speaks 6 languages.

Is your big complaint that he's white?

Didn't Pete's parents work at fancy schools? Didn't Pete himself attend a fancy school? That's money. One doesn't have to be a millionaire to be rich. I think Pete's from enough money to make him out-of-touch with the majority of Americans.

So no, my "big complaint" isn't just that he's white. That's just one more thing he's got in common with Trump.
 
Bob nailed you on that.

I'd say Pete is light years away from Trump. He's not a bully. He's not a narcissist. He's middle American. Polite and kind who has a history of serving others. Trump only has a history of serving himself. He's an intellectual who demonstrates the value of an education. Trump can hardly read. He's a veteran, not a draft dodger. Trump mangles his own language while Mayor Pete speaks 6 languages.

Is your big complaint that he's white?

I agree with you; Buttigieg is the opposite of Trump. About the only thing they have in common is being white males.
 
Didn't Pete's parents work at fancy schools? Didn't Pete himself attend a fancy school? That's money. One doesn't have to be a millionaire to be rich. I think Pete's from enough money to make him out-of-touch with the majority of Americans.

Well, I don't know how you define 'rich', but people who run for President will probably tend to be better off than the majority of Americans. Now what?
 
Well, I don't know how you define 'rich', but people who run for President will probably tend to be better off than the majority of Americans. Now what?

Now people should stop trying to argue people into liking the unlikeable? They've tried it with Biden, and now they're trying it with Gay Biden, Junior. It can't be done. "He's sufficiently different from Trump" isn't a very good pitch, even if it were true.
 
Didn't Pete's parents work at fancy schools? Didn't Pete himself attend a fancy school? That's money. One doesn't have to be a millionaire to be rich. I think Pete's from enough money to make him out-of-touch with the majority of Americans.

So no, my "big complaint" isn't just that he's white. That's just one more thing he's got in common with Trump.

By that standard, simply being college educated disconnects him from most Americans.

ETA: also, the standard was , "money." I don't even think all rich people would have the labeled money placed on them.

Further, it isn't clear that we were discussing"in touch". a) that seems like moving the goal posts and B) why would that even be desirable?
 
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Didn't Pete's parents work at fancy schools? Didn't Pete himself attend a fancy school? That's money. One doesn't have to be a millionaire to be rich. I think Pete's from enough money to make him out-of-touch with the majority of Americans.

So no, my "big complaint" isn't just that he's white. That's just one more thing he's got in common with Trump.

I don't think he's out of touch with most Americans. I think Mayor Pete represents exactly what we hope for from our children. Mayor Pete's father was an immigrant from Malta who studied to be a priest, but then became a professor at Notre Dame. Married an Indiana girl and together they taught their son the value of a good education.

And Pete didn't just take whatever advantages his parents provided. He graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard and won a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford. Then he served in the military as an intelligence officer in Afghanistan.

I know lots of people from wealthy families. Few have worked as hard as Mayor Pete has and frankly he's not that wealthy. In comparison Al Gore's father was very wealthy. Kerry was wealthy and married a Heinz. Only President Obama, Bill Clinton and LBJ in the last 120 years were raised from a more limited means than Mayor Pete.

I don't know if Mayor Pete should be the Democratic nominee, but you have to tip your cap to both his hard work and his audacity.
 
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Didn't Pete's parents work at fancy schools? Didn't Pete himself attend a fancy school? That's money. One doesn't have to be a millionaire to be rich. I think Pete's from enough money to make him out-of-touch with the majority of Americans.

So no, my "big complaint" isn't just that he's white. That's just one more thing he's got in common with Trump.

What's important is what he doesn't have in common with Trump.
 
I don't think he's out of touch with most Americans. I think Mayor Pete represents exactly what we hope for from our children. Mayor Pete's father was an immigrant from Malta who studied to be a priest met but then became a professor at Notre Dame. Married an Indiana girl and together they taught their son the value of a good education.

And Pete didn't just take whatever advantages his parents provided. He graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard and won a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford. Then he served in the military as an intelligence officer in Afghanistan.

I know lots of people from wealthy families. Few have worked as hard as Mayor Pete has and frankly he's not that wealthy. In comparison Al Gore's father was very wealthy. Kerry was wealthy and married a Heinz. Only President Obama, Bill Clinton and LBJ in the last 120 years were raised from a more limited means than Mayor Pete.

I don't know if Mayor Pete should be the Democratic nominee, but you have to tip your cap to both his hard work and his audacity.

We don't know if it was hard work. It could have been relatively easy for him.
 
We don't know if it was hard work. It could have been relatively easy for him.

At least Buttigieg didn't need a "friendly admissions officer" who was best friends with his brother to help him get into Harvard. Has he also refused to allow his academic records to be released? Like his tax records, Trump is hiding something in those academic records. And you can bet it isn't an impressive grade point average.
 
I don't think he's out of touch with most Americans. I think Mayor Pete represents exactly what we hope for from our children.

"Hope" being the key word. Enough that, IMO, those two sentences are contradictory. As you detail, Pete has had somewhat of a charmed, academic-leaning life. Most Americans can't relate to that; they might hope that their kid will end up going to good schools and becoming successful, but lots of people also feel like that avenue is completely closed off to them. I know I did, along with most of my childhood friends. It wasn't until I was around 20 and the Pell grant system had been expanded that I even seriously considered it.

You thinking that Pete story is relatable reminds me of one of the first time a teacher was talking to my class about college in elementary school: I live in an area that was kind of rough, but there was a fairly prestigious university nearby. The teacher asked the class if anyone had thought about college, and someone in the class said they'd probably end up going to the local undiversity - the teacher responded with "it costs $24,000 a year to go there, do you think you afford that?" and everyone got quiet. Years later, I ended up going to that school (whose tuition had gone up significantly in the passing years) after transferring from a community college and working my ass off to get a good scholarship. One day a professor found out I was a local and asked why I was the only local she had ever taught. I responded with "no one thinks they can go here; I didn't even know anyone that considered applying after finding out how expensive it was." I also felt incredibly out of place the entire time I went there.

I'm with TM on this. Most Americans aren't going to look at Pete and see someone relatable; they're going to see a privileged person who had access to opportunities they didn't. And who probably doesn't understand them, as detailed very well in the articles linked previously. I certainly know that's what I would have thought before getting into the academic life myself. But it looks we just have completely different perspectives on this.
 
"Hope" being the key word. Enough that, IMO, those two sentences are contradictory. As you detail, Pete has had somewhat of a charmed, academic-leaning life. Most Americans can't relate to that; they might hope that their kid will end up going to good schools and becoming successful, but lots of people also feel like that avenue is completely closed off to them. I know I did, along with most of my childhood friends. It wasn't until I was around 20 and the Pell grant system had been expanded that I even seriously considered it.

You thinking that Pete story is relatable reminds me of one of the first time a teacher was talking to my class about college in elementary school: I live in an area that was kind of rough, but there was a fairly prestigious university nearby. The teacher asked the class if anyone had thought about college, and someone in the class said they'd probably end up going to the local undiversity - the teacher responded with "it costs $24,000 a year to go there, do you think you afford that?" and everyone got quiet. Years later, I ended up going to that school (whose tuition had gone up significantly in the passing years) after transferring from a community college and working my ass off to get a good scholarship. One day a professor found out I was a local and asked why I was the only local she had ever taught. I responded with "no one thinks they can go here; I didn't even know anyone that considered applying after finding out how expensive it was." I also felt incredibly out of place the entire time I went there.

I'm with TM on this. Most Americans aren't going to look at Pete and see someone relatable; they're going to see a privileged person who had access to opportunities they didn't. And who probably doesn't understand them, as detailed very well in the articles linked previously. I certainly know that's what I would have thought before getting into the academic life myself. But it looks we just have completely different perspectives on this.

I think you're wrong. I'm from a family of 9 children. My father was a construction worker. I was taught that a good education was important and anything was possible. That is if we studied and worked hard for it. This personifies the American dream. The problem is when people don't think that kind of success is available to them.
 
Tulsi and some Navy SEAL were on the Joe Rogan show yesterday:


You posted a two hour, 37 minute show with no commentary whatsoever and expect us to consume the whole thing? Really?


I expect nothing from your majesty personally, but I generally expect from readers of this thread to have an interest in the latest developments of the topic, and Tulsi being (again) on this vastly popular podcast at just the right time when she needs another poll or two to stay on the clownish "debate" track is news in itself, whether you have an attention span that can cope with that kind of format (like over 2 million people in the few days since it was published have at least tried themselves at) or more like something fitting the "debates" is irrelevant to the service character of my post.
 
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All this talk of whether the average American would find Buttigieg relatable begs the question: does the average American find Trump relatable? The average American certainly doesn't relate to a man (and I use that term loosely) who was born into extensive wealth, has a penthouse on 5th Ave., owns several golf resorts and a private jet. So what do they find relatable about Trump?
 
I think you're wrong.
That's fine. Like I said, it just seems like we have completely different perspectives. But again, I'll point out that it seems contradictory you're talking about Pete being relatable for accomplishing a bunch of things most people wouldn't even dream of. At best, you've presented him as an aspirational or admirable figure, which I'll grant. But relatable? Absolutely not, based on my experiences. Those are distinct concepts.

The problem is when people don't think that kind of success is available to them.

That's something I'll agree with. It's why I'm a big supporter of progressive policies, and why I'd rather see someone else be the nominee than Pete. It's clear you don't see things the way I do.
 
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I think you're wrong. I'm from a family of 9 children. My father was a construction worker. I was taught that a good education was important and anything was possible. That is if we studied and worked hard for it. This personifies the American dream. The problem is when people don't think that kind of success is available to them.

My sister and I were the first college graduates in my family. My parents never, for a minute, did not aspire to and plan for their girls to go to college. They went without in order to make that possible.
 
All this talk of whether the average American would find Buttigieg relatable begs the question: does the average American find Trump relatable? The average American certainly doesn't relate to a man (and I use that term loosely) who was born into extensive wealth, has a penthouse on 5th Ave., owns several golf resorts and a private jet. So what do they find relatable about Trump?

They like that he's a loudmouthed bully, from what I've seen. When I've talked to Trump supporters, it seems like the biggest reason they like Trump is that they can relate to what he represents to them: somewhat of an aspirational figure (he likes to pretend he's a self-made man) who constantly acts like he's defending himself. For people who regularly get crapped on in life, someone with a persecution complex that complains about it constantly can apparently be surprisingly relatable.

In other words, it's not really about who Trump actually is, it's about what they project onto him.
 
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