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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 2nd December 2019, 04:58 PM   #2921
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Straight or gay, a lot of people seem to be hard-wired to form couples. It's not necessarily out of pressure to conform.

I think Buttgieg is going to have a different problem: His name is too weird. But then, we elected Barack Hussein Obama 7 years after 9/11.

Do you think you'd dislike Buttgieg just as much of he were straight?
If Buttgieg were straight I probably wouldn't even know who he is, he'd blend into the ten or so extras apparently running.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 06:59 PM   #2922
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Andrew Yang's fondness for Joe Biden (46:23):

Originally Posted by Andrew Yang
I will say the only person who's taken me aside and said that we really need to worry about the fourth industrial revolution because it could potentially tear our country apart is Joe Biden.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 09:40 PM   #2923
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think the the hatred of Copmala from the progressive wing of the party is quite real. Kamala's history as a DA is not seen as a positive. Given the disproportionate damage the criminal justice system does to black communities, I'm sure much of that distaste is very real. The "tough on crime" democrat is a bit of an outdated political model.
That's the far left, not the average black person who has to worry about their kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews, and so forth getting gunned down - which is why they're the ones organizing against violence whenever and wherever they can. What they don't want is police running around beating random people, and then refusing to investigate actual crimes - or worse, a Ferguson-style white supremacist shakedown PD.

Harris has the same basic problem almost everyone else does - Biden is strongly connected to Obama, and a lot of people have the Obamas photo next to MLK Jr. and Jesus on their mantle. College-age black people, meanwhile, are still leaning towards Sanders as far as I can tell. There's a fairly strong Harris movement, with Warren in 4th.

Again, there are things I like about several candidates - including a few who poll well below her. Overall, I'd probably go with Warren, mostly because she's the only person to say much of anything about the radicalized McConnell courts (By which I mean "Let's toss out Roe v. Wade, quite possibly Brown v. Board, and not let congress delegate authority to experts in the EPA.") But I find the loudly negative coverage of Harris, this early in, to be bizarre.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's not as vital in the primaries outside of a few Southern states like SC.
It'll be the *entire* South. And last I saw, he was getting killed in Nevada as well - picked specifically to increase the influence of Hispanic voters in early primaries. Hillary was actually pretty vulnerable in 2016, but when the Sanders campaign went down this path, Super Tuesday ended his bid in all but theory.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 10:58 PM   #2924
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
maybe my read is off, as far as I can tell, everyone to the right of Bernie is garbage.
That's:
  • Extreme hyperbole; or
  • a bad,bad read; or
  • your actual view

If it's the last one, it's not your "read" that's off, it's your head.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:07 PM   #2925
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
He's not on board with Medicare for all. That's smart and realistic. Medicare for all is a pipe dream on a good day. It's 200 proof, unadulterated fantasy. We may as well debate Lord of the Rings plot lines. Ditto free college for all.

It seems like "smart and thoughtful" have become dirty words.
I'm not totally on board, varwoche. With the GOP congresscritters having just arrived from the 18th century, Dems have to start from a pretty far out position so that negotiations end up with something worthwhile. I also think "shooting for the stars" is a reasonable campaign strategy to energize registered voters off their lazy duffs and actually vote. I'll acknowledge some risks in such a strategy but, in balance, I think it's a positive (winning?) approach.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:21 PM   #2926
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Biden is really something.
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Thank you for your substantive contribution to this tread.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:38 PM   #2927
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I'm not totally on board, varwoche. With the GOP congresscritters having just arrived from the 18th century, Dems have to start from a pretty far out position so that negotiations end up with something worthwhile. I also think "shooting for the stars" is a reasonable campaign strategy to energize registered voters off their lazy duffs and actually vote. I'll acknowledge some risks in such a strategy but, in balance, I think it's a positive (winning?) approach.
Moving the Overton window, alone, grants significant value to much of the "shoot for the stars" stuff in a bunch of ways. Going further, compromise is a good and necessary part of how healthy politics should work. Democrats starting out with... say, the Republican plan and then "compromising" with the Republicans as they try to brazenly try to sabotage it is not particularly healthy, on the other hand. May as well actually fight for something actually GOOD in the first place and be willing to compromise from there, rather than starting with something only somewhat better than nothing and compromising on it. Bernie may be ideologically committed to a fair extent, but it's hard to deny that one of the most important things that he's doing is helping to engage new voters and make them more enthusiastic. Warren is pretty clearly not actually committed to any particular plan on nigh anything so much as making things better across the board by actually addressing so many of the problematic things that honestly should have been addressed long ago or maintained, rather than get worn away by the continual assault on everyone else in quiet ways by those with lots and lots of spare money.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:46 PM   #2928
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Thank you for your substantive contribution to this tread.
The animation was made up, but the words are Biden's from yesterday. Here's the original video (followed by a bit of humorous commentary lifted from some movie):

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I know, it's hard to believe. Sod only knows where Biden thought he was going with the anecdote of kids reaching into the water to rub his legs, and how that tied in with roaches, and kids jumping on his lap, which he loves.


ETA: Notice he can't resist putting his hand on the girl next to him at about 0:18.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:31 AM   #2929
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The animation was made up, but the words are Biden's from yesterday. Here's the original video (followed by a bit of humorous commentary lifted from some movie):

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I AGREE


I know, it's hard to believe. Sod only knows where Biden thought he was going with the anecdote of kids reaching into the water to rub his legs, and how that tied in with roaches, and kids jumping on his lap, which he loves.


ETA: Notice he can't resist putting his hand on the girl next to him at about 0:18.
That's horrid. He's stuttering, the conversation makes little sense. Seems like he's trying hard to say he likes 'the blacks'.


I don't think anything looked untoward about him hugging the kids next to him.

But this part: "Sod [sic] only knows where Biden thought he was going with the anecdote of kids reaching into the water to rub his legs, and how that tied in with roaches, and kids jumping on his lap, which he loves."

That was really creepy bad.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 01:13 AM   #2930
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's horrid. He's stuttering, the conversation makes little sense. Seems like he's trying hard to say he likes 'the blacks'.


I don't think anything looked untoward about him hugging the kids next to him.

But this part: "Sod [sic] only knows where Biden thought he was going with the anecdote of kids reaching into the water to rub his legs, and how that tied in with roaches, and kids jumping on his lap, which he loves."

That was really creepy bad.
Why did they cut the bit out about him having an onion tied to his belt because that was the style at the time?

Even Donald Trump can make more coherent speeches than Biden. Imagine what hed be like in the presidential debates where the gloves are really off.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:08 AM   #2931
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Steve Bullock and Joe Sestak have dropped out. Not that nearly any of us here likely paid any notable attention to either.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who?

I'd never heard of them either. I tried looking up some info on Sestak but this is all I could find:



He looks a little green but I'd still vote for him over Trump.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:17 AM   #2932
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I'd never heard of them either. I tried looking up some info on Sestak but this is all I could find:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/54/94...b858468b58.jpg

He looks a little green but I'd still vote for him over Trump.
He's kind of sexy!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:42 AM   #2933
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
That's:
  • Extreme hyperbole; or
  • a bad,bad read; or
  • your actual view

If it's the last one, it's not your "read" that's off, it's your head.
People accuse Bernie of being unrealistic, but it's quite the opposite. He's the only one that is open about the nature of our deliberately stymied government.

What is Pete, or Biden, or Warren going to do when they win and McConnell refuses to play ball, as we know he will. Was 8 years of Obama not enough to prove that nothing is to be gained from trying to compromise with these people?

Bernie is calling for a popular movement to recapture the legislature. He intends to use the bully pulpit of the presidency to do so.

How is Warren going to pass her wealth tax? When McConnell says no, and the right wing SCOTUS says no, it's over. Her policies are empty promises and she knows it.

These people are content to not fight the hard battles. Meanwhile, creeping fascism is taking over the right, and the liberals have no solutions.

So yeah, garbage.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:47 AM   #2934
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People accuse Bernie of being unrealistic, but it's quite the opposite. He's the only one that is open about the nature of our deliberately stymied government.

What is Pete, or Biden, or Warren going to do when they win and McConnell refuses to play ball, as we know he will. Was 8 years of Obama not enough to prove that nothing is to be gained from trying to compromise with these people?

Bernie is calling for a popular movement to recapture the legislature. He intends to use the bully pulpit of the presidency to do so.

How is Warren going to pass her wealth tax? When McConnell says no, and the right wing SCOTUS says no, it's over. Her policies are empty promises and she knows it.

These people are content to not fight the hard battles. Meanwhile, creeping fascism is taking over the right, and the liberals have no solutions.

So yeah, garbage.
How exactly is Sanders going to overcome a hostile Senate? By "calling for a popular movement"? Sounds like it's just words, same as any of the other candidates, until/unless he can actually do it.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:50 AM   #2935
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I'm not totally on board, varwoche. With the GOP congresscritters having just arrived from the 18th century, Dems have to start from a pretty far out position so that negotiations end up with something worthwhile. I also think "shooting for the stars" is a reasonable campaign strategy to energize registered voters off their lazy duffs and actually vote. I'll acknowledge some risks in such a strategy but, in balance, I think it's a positive (winning?) approach.
I get it but -- it's the issue of telling people in MI, WI and PA who are happy with their insurance that (1) they won't be able to keep it and (2) the replacement isn't defined. That's a losing proposition.

Immediate MFA doesn't even make sense in terms of mundane logistics. Warren realizes that and has proposed a transition period, but is taking heat from purists who enjoy fictional concepts.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:57 AM   #2936
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I'd never heard of them either. I tried looking up some info on Sestak but this is all I could find:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/54/94...b858468b58.jpg

He looks a little green but I'd still vote for him over Trump.
Actually, Joe Sestak would have made a wonderful nominee. Trump loses in a landslide to him.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:03 AM   #2937
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How exactly is Sanders going to overcome a hostile Senate? By "calling for a popular movement"? Sounds like it's just words, same as any of the other candidates, until/unless he can actually do it.
It's a long term, difficult project, but there's intellectual honesty there. Nothing changes in this country until different people are in Congress. This is inherently a bottom-up problem that can only be solved by intense grassroots activism, which Bernie is quite plain in making his priority. Bernie's talk of mass movements is a plan. It's not a satisfying "i'll just make it happen as President plan", but it's a realistic plan with a chance of success. Bernie isn't talking about technocratic solutions and executive action, he's talking about supporting local activism and organizing and turning that into meaningful political power.

Warren's "Day One" plan is intellectually insulting. No Democratic will accomplish anything meaningful one day one, or day 100, so long as the deadlock of government isn't broken. It ignores the political reality that a president alone can't make change, but everyone but Bernie is happy to pretend otherwise.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:14 AM   #2938
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@Sezme If I was formulating a message for Warren or whoever, it might look like this...
We are going to expand Medicare to cover X million Americans who today don't have health insurance. Ultimately we'll realize huge cost savings if we implement Medicare for all. However I'm not going to push that on anyone. The American people will decide if expanded Medicare has worked. You will decide if we should take it to the next step and cover everyone.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:28 AM   #2939
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How exactly is Sanders going to overcome a hostile Senate? By "calling for a popular movement"? Sounds like it's just words, same as any of the other candidates, until/unless he can actually do it.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's a long term, difficult project, but there's intellectual honesty there. Nothing changes in this country until different people are in Congress. This is inherently a bottom-up problem that can only be solved by intense grassroots activism, which Bernie is quite plain in making his priority. Bernie's talk of mass movements is a plan. It's not a satisfying "i'll just make it happen as President plan", but it's a realistic plan with a chance of success. Bernie isn't talking about technocratic solutions and executive action, he's talking about supporting local activism and organizing and turning that into meaningful political power.
Do you believe Bernie's "intense grassroots activism" would overcome the significant structural advantage currently enjoyed by the GOP in the Senate?

https://twitter.com/D4M10N/status/1118595141571436544
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:50 AM   #2940
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Biden has to remind us just how old and corny he is. New slogan. "No malarkey".
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:54 AM   #2941
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Biden has to remind us just how old and corny he is. New slogan. "No malarkey".
Biden 2020: Now You're On The Trolley!
Biden: 23 Skiddoo!
Biden: The Bee's Knees

America's writing mash notes to Biden!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:02 AM   #2942
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Biden has to remind us just how old and corny he is. New slogan. "No malarkey".
Yeah, but Iowa is the corniest state in the US, and Biden's playing to his base.

When that bus rolls past, the locals can cry out, "Hot diggity dang! Finally someone is gonna summin about the malarkey!"
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:29 AM   #2943
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People accuse Bernie of being unrealistic, but it's quite the opposite. He's the only one that is open about the nature of our deliberately stymied government.

What is Pete, or Biden, or Warren going to do when they win and McConnell refuses to play ball, as we know he will. Was 8 years of Obama not enough to prove that nothing is to be gained from trying to compromise with these people?

Bernie is calling for a popular movement to recapture the legislature. He intends to use the bully pulpit of the presidency to do so.

How is Warren going to pass her wealth tax? When McConnell says no, and the right wing SCOTUS says no, it's over. Her policies are empty promises and she knows it.

These people are content to not fight the hard battles. Meanwhile, creeping fascism is taking over the right, and the liberals have no solutions.

So yeah, garbage.
Yah sure, Bernie will bluster from the bully pulpit and everything will fall in line. That's non-realism on steroids.

But I'll give him this much: He's the only one with the chutzpah to declare a state of emergency and force things.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:33 AM   #2944
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, but Iowa is the corniest state in the US, and Biden's playing to his base.

When that bus rolls past, the locals can cry out, "Hot diggity dang! Finally someone is gonna summin about the malarkey!"
Perhaps he'll show that goldurned Kaiser what-fer!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:54 AM   #2945
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Biden has to remind us just how old and corny he is. New slogan. "No malarkey".
It polls well with some voters:

Biden's Popularity Skyrockets Among Coveted 1920s Working Class Demographic
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Old 3rd December 2019, 09:01 AM   #2946
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
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Old 3rd December 2019, 09:52 AM   #2947
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Quote:
Biden has to remind us just how old and corny he is. New slogan. "No malarkey".
Biden 2020: Now You're On The Trolley!
Biden: 23 Skiddoo!
Biden: The Bee's Knees

America's writing mash notes to Biden!
Biden: An onion tied to every belt. Like in the good old days, I went to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:14 AM   #2948
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It has to be Biden.
It can't be Biden.
It's gonna be Biden.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:22 AM   #2949
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Quote:
Bernie is calling for a popular movement to recapture the legislature. He intends to use the bully pulpit of the presidency to do so.
How exactly is Sanders going to overcome a hostile Senate? By "calling for a popular movement"? Sounds like it's just words, same as any of the other candidates, until/unless he can actually do it.
If anything I would expect a Sanders presidency to actually be counter-productive in overcoming a hostile senate, since the GOP would probably use "Sanders=radical who will give you socialism" in their campaign ads for congress.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:27 AM   #2950
theprestige
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Luckily for our system of government, the President doesn't need to overcome the Senate, in order to do his job.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:38 AM   #2951
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Luckily for our system of government, the President doesn't need to overcome the Senate, in order to do his job.
What's his job? Insulting people and/or selling out the country for personal gain?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:40 AM   #2952
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I'm not totally on board, varwoche. With the GOP congresscritters having just arrived from the 18th century, Dems have to start from a pretty far out position so that negotiations end up with something worthwhile.
There are some problems with that however...

- It gives the opposition the ability to shout "Radical!"
- When you fail to achieve the goal you campaigned on (in order to achieve a compromise), it ends up being a "broken election promise"
- it assumes that the republicans are interested in any compromise. Given their current tactics, it doesn't matter if you propose medicare for all or some sort of private/public mix, the republicans are not going to budge at all.
Quote:
I also think "shooting for the stars" is a reasonable campaign strategy to energize registered voters off their lazy duffs and actually vote.
It assumes that those registered voters actually like what you are proposing.

I am sure there are plenty of young voters who will eagerly line up behind a voter that promises "free health care/free tuition". But there are a large number of potential supporters who will think "I want change but not THAT much change" and will decide to sit out the election, thinking "Republicans too far right, Democrats too far left. Nobody represents me!"

Plus, the more radical the policies, the greater chance you will energize the opponents base. If the Democrats nominate someone like Biden or Booker, there will be a few potential republican supporters who will think "I will never vote Democrat, but I don't want to vote for Trump either". If Sanders gets the nomination, you will have at least a few republicans who think "I don't like Trump, but I really need to vote for him to prevent the radical socialist from getting in to power".
Quote:
I'll acknowledge some risks in such a strategy but, in balance, I think it's a positive (winning?) approach.
Evidence suggests otherwise.

From: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/u...reme-ones.html
A party that nominates an extreme candidate when it could have nominated a more moderate one may lose as much as seven points of vote share in the general election...Extreme candidates, the researchers say, may mobilize their party’s base — but they tend to activate their opponent’s base even more than their own, resulting in a net loss on turnout. They also seem to lose habitual voters — the people who almost always turn out to vote — to the opposition party, while moderate nominees hold on to those voters.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:40 AM   #2953
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How exactly is Sanders going to overcome a hostile Senate? By "calling for a popular movement"? Sounds like it's just words, same as any of the other candidates, until/unless he can actually do it.
Maybe by exposing them publicly in a way we haven't seen in the modern age.

Average voters don't watch hours of CSPAN a day; they don't know what the **** is going on in Congress.

He's gonna put his opponents on blast.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:47 AM   #2954
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Luckily for our system of government, the President doesn't need to overcome the Senate, in order to do his job.
There are elements of the job that certainly do involve him dealing with potential senate opposition:

- Confirmation of various nominations (e.g. supreme court, cabinet positions)

- While the president is not formally involved in crafting legislation, they can be involved in the process (e.g. requests to congress for funding, pushing for certain legislation through the use of the presidency as a 'bully pulpit'.)

The president's job is to promote the well being of all citizens of the United States. For him to do that effectively requires at least some cooperation with congress.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:53 AM   #2955
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Quote:
How exactly is Sanders going to overcome a hostile Senate? By "calling for a popular movement"? Sounds like it's just words, same as any of the other candidates, until/unless he can actually do it.
Maybe by exposing them publicly in a way we haven't seen in the modern age.

Average voters don't watch hours of CSPAN a day; they don't know what the **** is going on in Congress.

He's gonna put his opponents on blast.
Why exactly is Sanders needed in order to do that? If its a case of just highlighting the actions of Congress, any presidential candidate can use social media. (Having Sanders attempt to do it might even make the message seem... silly. "Sanders... like your grandpa trying to use the latest technology".
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:00 AM   #2956
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What's his job? Insulting people and/or selling out the country for personal gain?
You probably shouldn't be voting if you don't know the answer. Would you like me to google it for you?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:05 AM   #2957
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
There are elements of the job that certainly do involve him dealing with potential senate opposition:
Yes there are.

Quote:
- Confirmation of various nominations (e.g. supreme court, cabinet positions)
Confirmation of nominees is not an element of the president's job, though.

Quote:
- While the president is not formally involved in crafting legislation, they can be involved in the process (e.g. requests to congress for funding, pushing for certain legislation through the use of the presidency as a 'bully pulpit'.)
The bully pulpit is not actually any part of the Executive Branch job description.

Quote:
The president's job is to promote the well being of all citizens of the United States. For him to do that effectively requires at least some cooperation with congress.
The president's job is to execute federal law, oversee national defense within the constraints laid on him by Congress, and conduct diplomacy within the constraints imposed on him by Congress. None of that involves overcoming the Senate. He may not accomplish all of his agenda without overcoming the Senate, but he can certainly do the job.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:05 AM   #2958
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Why exactly is Sanders needed in order to do that? If its a case of just highlighting the actions of Congress, any presidential candidate can use social media. (Having Sanders attempt to do it might even make the message seem... silly. "Sanders... like your grandpa trying to use the latest technology".
Oh any presidential candidate could. Obama could have called out the incredible Republican obstruction in the last two-thirds of his time in office, but he did it in whispers at most. He always tried to quietly reach out to them.

Sanders is not the type to stay quiet about that. He'll be as loud as Trump, if not louder, and actually honest.

Why would Sanders look silly doing it? He's been doing it and doing fine so far. He has a good group of young and savvy staff to assist him in that.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:45 AM   #2959
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Luckily for our system of government, the President doesn't need to overcome the Senate, in order to do his job.
And his job is to execute Congress' policies.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:45 AM   #2960
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What's his job? Insulting people and/or selling out the country for personal gain?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You probably shouldn't be voting if you don't know the answer.
And yet that's precisely why you voted for Trump.

Kind of funny when you actually think about it.

LOL!
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