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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 2nd December 2019, 07:13 PM   #321
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Once, the Republicans were the party of defending America against the Red Threat - the defenders of Democracy and Capitalism and Human Rights, the party that carried out espionage against the old adversary, Russia (in the guise of the Soviet Union), the party that fought the Cold War in order to prevent Nuclear War.

Now they are the party of collusion.
You don't get it. We were anti-Russia for one reason only - Communism. And not to defend Democracy or Human Rights, but simply because come the revolution we (ie. rich capitalists and wanabes) would be the first against the wall. Once the wall came down and our fortunes were safe, our 'concern' for Human Rights etc. evaporated.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:21 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You don't get it. We were anti-Russia for one reason only - Communism. And not to defend Democracy or Human Rights, but simply because come the revolution we (ie. rich capitalists and wanabes) would be the first against the wall. Once the wall came down and our fortunes were safe, our 'concern' for Human Rights etc. evaporated.
A cynical view, but one that is probably closer to the truth than many might believe!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:11 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Perhaps. But why would the press be desperate?
Seriously?

With all the accusations that the press is biased and in the left's pockets?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:14 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Their report reminds me of defense lawyers in court:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the prosecution's security camera video of my client pulling out his gun and shooting the deceased in the back doesn't prove, in any way, that my client actually killed the victim. Mr. Smith was still alive when taken to the hospital by ambulance but was deceased upon arrival. Who's to say the EMT's are not responsible for Mr. Smith's death? Of course the EMT's deny they caused Mr. Smith's death, but did anyone witness them actually trying to save Mr. Smith's life? NO! How dare the prosecution try to pin this on my client!
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post


The Republicans today. Gaslighting the world.
No, no, no, no. The GOP version would look like this:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, WATCH THE VIDEO. There was no crime. No shooting. My client wants nothing. He wants nothing."

That's gaslighting.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:54 AM   #325
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I will be disappointed if the impeachment charges don’t include at least these...

1) Firing Comey. We have all 3 elements of the crime of Obstruction of Justice. The act of firing, of course. It’s intended effect on an ongoing investigation. The corrupt intent shown by his Lester Holt interview, comments to the Russian ambassador, and recent comments about how bad things would have been for him had he NOT fired Comey.

2) Soliciting McGahn to prepare a false statement. Again, I think all 3 elements are established in the Mueller Report.

3) Preparing a false statement on Air Force One to mislead investigators about the Trump Tower meeting.

As to that last, intent may be difficult to prove. And there are other cases outlined in Mueller where the first two elements are clear, but proving the intent may be problematic. I’d have to go back and review them all to see if any others might be included in the charges.

As has been pointed out, actions don’t have to be illegal to be impeachable. But outlining them all in the Senate trial will at least put Republican Senators on the record as condoning such behavior in a sitting president. I don’t think history will treat them well in this regard.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:03 AM   #326
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The republicans say that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:05 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
The republicans say that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election.
SQUIRREL!!!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 09:29 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quote:
Their report reminds me of defense lawyers in court:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the prosecution's security camera video of my client pulling out his gun and shooting the deceased in the back doesn't prove, in any way, that my client actually killed the victim.
No, no, no, no. The GOP version would look like this:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, WATCH THE VIDEO. There was no crime. No shooting. My client wants nothing. He wants nothing."

That's gaslighting.
I figured the GOP version would be this:

"...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!...If Chewbacca lives on Endor then there was no Quid pro Quo and no Collusion. The defense rests."
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:26 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I figured the GOP version would be this:

"...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!...If Chewbacca lives on Endor then there was no Quid pro Quo and no Collusion. The defense rests."
As I understand the legal system lingo (and I don't claim to understand it well), the "Chewbacca Defense" really is a thing now, and the Republicans are absolutely using the Chewbacca defense.

I think the current GOP position is:

"The supposed victim testified that my client pointed a gun at him and demanded money. But notice that my client never used the word 'robbery,' and didn't say 'or I'll shoot you.' There was no threat, there was no robbery. This was just a simple request for money. People ask each other for money all the time. Why are we wasting the court's time with this?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:56 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
As I understand the legal system lingo (and I don't claim to understand it well), the "Chewbacca Defense" really is a thing now, and the Republicans are absolutely using the Chewbacca defense.

I think the current GOP position is:

"The supposed victim testified that my client pointed a gun at him and demanded money. But notice that my client never used the word 'robbery,' and didn't say 'or I'll shoot you.' There was no threat, there was no robbery. This was just a simple request for money. People ask each other for money all the time. Why are we wasting the court's time with this?
I'd add: "This was a perfect request for money! This is a HOAX! A witch hunt and nothing more than harassment of my client!"
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Old 3rd December 2019, 01:30 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'd add: "This was a perfect request for money! This is a HOAX! A witch hunt and nothing more than harassment of my client!"
ooh, if I'd thought of that 'perfect' part, I'd have included it
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Old 3rd December 2019, 01:37 PM   #332
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Excellent speech by Schiff just now. Summed it up perfectly.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 02:00 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Excellent speech by Schiff just now. Summed it up perfectly.
Agreed. He hit the nail on the head. Sadly, I think the GOP will fail to recognize the truth of what he said and continue to put their own self-interests ahead of those of the country.

Stephanie Grisham's response:
Quote:
At the end of a one-sided sham process, Chairman Schiff and the Democrats utterly failed to produce any evidence of wrongdoing by Pres. Trump. This report reflects nothing more than their frustrations. Chairman Schiff's report reads like the ramblings of a basement blogger straining to prove something when there is evidence of nothing.
The GOP will accept nothing less than a full confession by Trump that he intentionally and knowingly broke the law and withheld the money unless Zelensky announced an investigation into Biden. They'll accept nothing less than Trump admitting he did this in order to damage his political rival in the upcoming elections. And even then, some would say that confession was misinterpreted.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 02:20 PM   #334
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Nunes is one of the sketchiest humans on Earth, but you have to be pretty stupid not to cover up phone calls:

Quote:
The House Intelligence Committee's impeachment report -- which was made public Tuesday -- says the committee's top Repubican, Rep. Devin Nunes of California, was linked to that effort.

The records, according to Intelligence Committee member Rep. Eric Swalwell, were subpoenaed from third-parties.

"Mr. Solomon was not working alone," the report said of conservative journalist John Solomon's articles throughout 2019 that spread Trump-backed conspiracies about Ukraine. "As further described below, there was a coordinated effort by associates of President Trump to push these false narratives publicly, as evidenced by public statements, phone records, and contractual agreements."
If this were any Tom, Dick or Harry off the street I'd say it sucks, but I'm pretty sure the House\Senate have the opportunities (like a ******* burn phone maybe) to keep from getting busted. Just goes to show that not all criminals are masterminds. I hope I get to watch Nunes go down with Trump.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 02:55 PM   #335
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I'm just waiting for Trump to "quote" Zelensky -- "He said to me he said 'Sir... this isn't a quid pro quo.'"

That should be admissible evidence right there that he's lying about it.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 03:27 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. He hit the nail on the head. Sadly, I think the GOP will fail to recognize the truth of what he said and continue to put their own self-interests ahead of those of the country.
Fixed that for you.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The GOP will accept nothing less than a full confession by Trump that he intentionally and knowingly broke the law and withheld the money unless Zelensky announced an investigation into Biden. They'll accept nothing less than Trump admitting he did this in order to damage his political rival in the upcoming elections. And even then, some would say that confession was misinterpreted.
They won't even accept a confession. Not that there's any chance of that happening.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 03:47 PM   #337
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What is Rudy Giuliani doing calling the OMB?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:00 PM   #338
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Trump Retweeted

Vice President Mike Pence
@VP
What’s happening on Capitol Hill is a disgrace and the fact that it’s happening during a @NATO Conference in London is a disservice to the American people and the United States.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:01 PM   #339
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Trump Retweeted

Dan Scavino Jr.
@Scavino45
Watching Schiff hold an embarrassing Impeachment Sham press conference in THE SWAMP from my phone, while President @realDonaldTrump is at #NATO70 in London with other World Leaders (below), representing the United States of America! Schiff is a total JOKE, embarrassing himself!!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:08 PM   #340
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If the GOP had been on the Titanic, they'd be shouting that it wasn't sinking and for everyone to just go back to their rooms. Just ignore the rising water; it's just a small leak.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:08 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post


The Republicans today. Gaslighting the world.
They don't even care that real Americans know they are gaslighting. They just fight over themselves to get close to Trump and show their bellies. The Trumptrash in the house are the worst sort of scum imaginable. They barely qualify as human.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:36 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The Trumptrash in the house are the worst sort of scum imaginable. They barely qualify as human.
This sort of rhetoric is what needs to stop. When you convince people that other humans are not really human, then it opens the door for whatever atrocity against them the listeners feel like doing. This is the exact issue that Trump and co are causing when they speak about Liberals and Refugees in these terms, and which we fight against, we don't need it coming from our side as well. We're supposed to hold ourselves to a better standard than they do.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:42 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Retweeted

Dan Scavino Jr.
@Scavino45
Watching Schiff hold an embarrassing Impeachment Sham press conference in THE SWAMP from my phone....
...How he got it, we'll never know.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:01 PM   #344
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Oh, how tasty it would be to see Nunes go down with Trump.

But then again, I don't expect Trump to go down... so I'll happily take Nunes and Guiliani as the consolation prizes.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:03 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This sort of rhetoric is what needs to stop. When you convince people that other humans are not really human, then it opens the door for whatever atrocity against them the listeners feel like doing. This is the exact issue that Trump and co are causing when they speak about Liberals and Refugees in these terms, and which we fight against, we don't need it coming from our side as well. We're supposed to hold ourselves to a better standard than they do.
Agreed.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:04 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Oh, how tasty it would be to see Nunes go down with Trump.

But then again, I don't expect Trump to go down... so I'll happily take Nunes and Guiliani as the consolation prizes.
Nunes is all over Guiliani's phone records. He's in this up to his neck.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:10 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If the GOP had been on the Titanic, they'd be shouting that it wasn't sinking and for everyone to just go back to their rooms. Just ignore the rising water; it's just a small leak.
I'm picturing Kevin Bacon at the end of Animal House -- "All is well! All is well!!"
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:59 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This sort of rhetoric is what needs to stop. When you convince people that other humans are not really human, then it opens the door for whatever atrocity against them the listeners feel like doing. This is the exact issue that Trump and co are causing when they speak about Liberals and Refugees in these terms, and which we fight against, we don't need it coming from our side as well. We're supposed to hold ourselves to a better standard than they do.
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Agreed.
Seconded. This is what the TrumpTrash are doing. Here, for instance, is devout "Christian" Dave Daubenmire proclaiming that Schiff and Pelosi are either "demon possessed" or "non human".
Don't be like that guy.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:16 PM   #349
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I don't think there is any question whether or not Trump's behavior was wrong, corrupt and criminal. The only question is will the GOP-ruled Senate will be able to disassociate this from 3 years of obsessive Leftist hatred of Trump, and judge the case on its merits alone. I fear they will not. They will see this as just an extension of the Democrats' refusal to accept Trump's 2016 win and therefore unworthy of any consideration.

Sad. Trump will get away with some very bad behavior.

Hopefully we will reverse the coming travesty of justice in November 2020.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:41 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I don't think there is any question whether or not Trump's behavior was wrong, corrupt and criminal. The only question is will the GOP-ruled Senate will be able to disassociate this from 3 years of obsessive Leftist hatred of Trump, and judge the case on its merits alone. I fear they will not. They will see this as just an extension of the Democrats' refusal to accept Trump's 2016 win and therefore unworthy of any consideration.
.
I heard an interesting take the other day. The Republicans are going to whine that the impeachment is all political. OK, fine. But then again, their defense is also just political. So let's not let them get away with pretending that they are taking some pure high road or anything.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:38 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I heard an interesting take the other day. The Republicans are going to whine that the impeachment is all political. OK, fine. But then again, their defense is also just political. So let's not let them get away with pretending that they are taking some pure high road or anything.
I like that point.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:09 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I don't think there is any question whether or not Trump's behavior was wrong, corrupt and criminal. The only question is will the GOP-ruled Senate will be able to disassociate this from 3 years of obsessive Leftist hatred of Trump, and judge the case on its merits alone. I fear they will not. They will see this as just an extension of the Democrats' refusal to accept Trump's 2016 win and therefore unworthy of any consideration.

Sad. Trump will get away with some very bad behavior.

Hopefully we will reverse the coming travesty of justice in November 2020.
These are Trump created figments of his Imagination. Sure people on the left hate what he has been doing, because from the moment he got in his administration has been doing a lot of stuff that is just crazy bad, from rolling back environmental regulations to trying to ban Muslims from entering the country purely because of their religion or place of birth, to separating kids from their families and putting them in overcrowded cages and refusing to let them go to be with US based family, to trying to roll back the healthcare on millions of people, to slashing funding on any program designed to help people, and giving it all to the military. And that doesn't include the massive push back on women's rights that has occurred through his three years lead by others he picked in his Administration, and by GOP lead States who believe that Trump's judge picks will allow them to overturn decades of law around protecting woman's health. So yeah, what hate he gets is purely based on his policy and actions and how those policies and actions are hurting people.

The second part is again total fantasy. Now again, yes there have been those that have called for his impeachment for a while, but again for good cause. He and his campaign dabbled with Russia, to the point of giving them meetings they should never have had, and polling data that helped Russia target their interference in the Election to help the Trump Campaign. There is also evidence to believe that Russia gave the Trump Campaign strategy materials hacked from the DNC. Since getting into power, Trump has continued to deny that Russia interfered in the election, despite even the Republican lead Senate Intelligence Committee saying that they did.On top of that he repeatedly interfered and attempted to interfere into the investigations into that Interference and what, if any, role his campaign played in it. He was "untruthful" to the investigators, and blocked them from having full access while telling the America people that he was being totally open with them about it. And then at the last minute he slipped in a guy to take any shine off the final report by lying about what was in it long enough that the lie could take over before any of the truth came out, effectively burying a report that was already watered down, but still showed numerous clear cased of obstruction of Justice by the President. And yet despite that, the Democrats didn't move on impeachment. Yes they kept on investigation, but that's because Trump is so crooked that every time they turned over a rock, more criminal appearing actions scuttled out of the darkness. And through it all, Trump has blatantly refused to cooperate to the point that even if he's not guilty of things, he still looks guilty because he is hiding the truth of what he was doing.

The reality of it is not that the Dems have been out to get him for Three years, it's that Trump keeps on making himself look guilty of criminal actions, and then whines about it when people investigate those actions. He brought all of it on himself by his own actions, including this Impeachment, an Impeachment that according to reports, he was warned would happen is he kept on acting and doing the things he was doing. And the GOP has been fully complicit in it all because they have been able to get the Judges they wanted into place after making sure that Obama couldn't fill the places when he was President.
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Old 4th December 2019, 02:14 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This sort of rhetoric is what needs to stop. When you convince people that other humans are not really human, then it opens the door for whatever atrocity against them the listeners feel like doing. This is the exact issue that Trump and co are causing when they speak about Liberals and Refugees in these terms, and which we fight against, we don't need it coming from our side as well. We're supposed to hold ourselves to a better standard than they do.
...a couple of days after Craig started a thread specifically to bemoan the OTT rhetoric from Republicans.

I tried to get through to him, but to no avail. I doubt you'll have much more success, but I wish you luck.
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Old 4th December 2019, 05:09 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
...a couple of days after Craig started a thread specifically to bemoan the OTT rhetoric from Republicans.

I tried to get through to him, but to no avail. I doubt you'll have much more success, but I wish you luck.
...aaaand, I just got carded for it. So beware.
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Old 4th December 2019, 05:50 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If the GOP had been on the Titanic, they'd be shouting that it wasn't sinking and for everyone to just go back to their rooms. Just ignore the rising water; it's just a small leak.
You're giving them too much credit. They'd claim there wasn't water at all.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:19 AM   #356
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I think I might qualify as a “Never Trumper”. I found him repulsive since very, very early on in the Republican primary as he mocked and belittled his primary opponents.

Yet when he won, I had mixed feelings. I was energized in the manner of “living in interesting times” - which is itself a Chinese curse. Still, I had no thoughts of getting rid of him through impeachment - the vagaries of the electoral college made him “my” president, for good or ill. I had hopes he would surround himself with good people and listen to their counsel, and, being a fiscal conservative, hoped he could find a way to rein in spending and get a handle on burgeoning deficits and debt.

Needless to say, that hopeful phase was not long-lived, so here we are.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:28 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If the GOP had been on the Titanic, they'd be shouting that it wasn't sinking and for everyone to just go back to their rooms. Just ignore the rising water; it's just a small leak.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're giving them too much credit. They'd claim there wasn't water at all.
They'd claim the contact with the iceberg was perfect and the Titanic was working better than ever. Even if there was something wrong it wasn't a sinking offence.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:42 AM   #358
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We learnt pretty early on what a slimy little worm Nunes was but participating in an inquiry into this dirty Trump/Giuliani scheme that he took part in is next level. Hope this ******** ends up in the slammer.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:42 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think I might qualify as a “Never Trumper”. I found him repulsive since very, very early on in the Republican primary as he mocked and belittled his primary opponents.

Yet when he won, I had mixed feelings. I was energized in the manner of “living in interesting times” - which is itself a Chinese curse. Still, I had no thoughts of getting rid of him through impeachment - the vagaries of the electoral college made him “my” president, for good or ill. I had hopes he would surround himself with good people and listen to their counsel, and, being a fiscal conservative, hoped he could find a way to rein in spending and get a handle on burgeoning deficits and debt.

Needless to say, that hopeful phase was not long-lived, so here we are.
He isn't. "your" president unless you work for the executive branch. We are not in some chain of command. He can't give us orders.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:46 AM   #360
Sideroxylon
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think I might qualify as a “Never Trumper”. I found him repulsive since very, very early on in the Republican primary as he mocked and belittled his primary opponents.

Yet when he won, I had mixed feelings. I was energized in the manner of “living in interesting times” - which is itself a Chinese curse. Still, I had no thoughts of getting rid of him through impeachment - the vagaries of the electoral college made him “my” president, for good or ill. I had hopes he would surround himself with good people and listen to their counsel, and, being a fiscal conservative, hoped he could find a way to rein in spending and get a handle on burgeoning deficits and debt.

Needless to say, that hopeful phase was not long-lived, so here we are.
It was easy to see what a lying, stupid, greedy, dickhead he was during campaigning. As it was for anyone paying attention to him prior to that. He was a birther for **** sake.
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