Did Epstein run a World Satanic Ring?

Vixen said:
But they worshipped idols in the form of a bull did they not?
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How about you respond to the post you quoted, rather than launch into irrelevancies?

Your question was to do with evidence he was a spy.
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Absolutely not.

Your principal claim, and the title of this thread, is about Satanism. I'm asking you about Satanism and you keep changing the subject. That doesn't sound very confident.
 
Vixen said:
Er, you did know that Epstein was in the possession of a fake Saudi Arabian passport...did you not?
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Vixen said:
... he was in possession of a fake passport. A Saudi Arabian one.

… They said the expired Austrian passport was found in the locked safe
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It's the prosecutors saying it, not me.
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Was the Saudi passport maybe hidden underneath the Austrian one?

It's this striking attention to detail that makes the case for his being a Satanist so compelling. Great work. Do carry on.
 
Belz... said:
How about you respond to the post you quoted, rather than launch into irrelevancies?



Absolutely not.

Your principal claim, and the title of this thread, is about Satanism. I'm asking you about Satanism and you keep changing the subject. That doesn't sound very confident.
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If you simply redefine the subject you don't have to change it. Everything is Satanism except when it isn't (yet).
 
Vixen said:
Why is it so hard to accept that Epstein ran a clandestine occult racket - meaning the participants have some vow of secrecy, not to mention being blackmailed by spy tapes and the threat of exposure and prosecution.

At a conference Ghislaine Maxwell was bragging that 64% of the world's oceans come under no jurisdiction (- no man's land, as it were-) and that she was part of some oceanic project involving submarines. Now, Epstein's island temple has several hidden entrances several floors below (from Rachel Chandler's instagram pictures of the underground chambers, there are roughly four floors). We know it is deep because of the very steep steps that lead down from the trapdoor inside the temple doors.

Think about it: the underage victims were sneaked in by Ghislaine's submarine at a landing port and arrive undetected by air traffic control radar nor sighted by coast guards. Chantau Davies and Virginia Roberts Guiffre themselves confess to have recruited up to fifty teenage girls each to satisfy Epstein's lust.

Epstein set up a sperm donation for scientists whom he spent a lot of time wining and dining and planned to impregnate fifty girls at a time with 'top brain' elites. Virginia claims Epstein and Maxwell tried to force her to have his baby and hand it over. WHERE IS THAT BABY if it happened, as she claims?

Where are all those young girls procured by Epstein. Where is Jean Luc Brunel, who ran a Paris model agency and allegedly supplied girls who looked twelve-years old? Why has he and Ghislaine gone into hiding?

It is claimed Epstein spent a huge sum of money filling in his underground tunnels with rubble and many files and documents were removed before the FBI got there.

Some reports claim the FBI found human remains around the shore of small skeletons and skulls. What likely happened at his temple was horrific.

These Egyptian occultists have a belief that the further you go underground the nearer you are to these sinister 'gods'.

From this is must surely be blindingly obvious that Epstein wasn't 'just a dirty old man' procuring prostitutes and masseuse up to his mansion.

He had a massive supply of them via Les Wexner who owned Victoria's Secrets and procured models for his lingerie range, via Maxwell and Brunel and via people like Virginia, Chantau and Rachel, already in his sex ring.

This was no one-man perversion. This was a Mossad agent on a mission to blackmail the world's leading statesmen, lawyers and scientists (in a foreign interference operation) an involved - if the sealed court depositions are to be believed - at least ONE THOUSAND people in high places. That isn't the actions of some sole individual disgusting sex pervert down the road.
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Where might I go and find said submarine? Which witnesses indicated they were transported via submarine? Seems cheaper and easier to convince them that they were getting modeling gigs or some such.
 
Vixen said:
Here you are, Ghislaine Maxwell giving it large about her submarine work and being outside the law.

The youtube video is titled: WDS2 - Ghislaine Maxwell and The TerraMar Project
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She is talking about the problem of plastics pollution in the oceans. She refers to being in a DDS (Deep Diving Submersible) which holds maybe four people. She does not say if she was piloting the vehicle.

You do not need a license to pilot a submarine depending on its size. And the USCG requires a Master's License for a vessel of equivalent tonnage.

Here's the submarine landing station, as attached.


ETA By coincidence (haha) the Terramar Project which involved Richard Branson ceased upon Epstein's arrest.

https://usahitman.com/underground-epsteinisland/
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You've linked to a nutjob website.

There are no reports of any construction on his island on that scale.

You're getting carried away with goofball BS. Why are you allergic to the facts of how the world works?

1. You don't need submarines or tunnels to move people. Esptein moved his girls right out in the open in front of everyone.

2. Epstein got away with it because nobody bothered to ask questions, not because they were silenced, but apathy.

3. It is not hard to manipulate teenage girls and easy to scare them into silence.

I ask again, why aren't the facts enough for you? Why chases phantom Satanists?
 
Craig4 said:
Where might I go and find said submarine? Which witnesses indicated they were transported via submarine? Seems cheaper and easier to convince them that they were getting modeling gigs or some such.
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Get out your check-book:

https://www.mysubmarines.com/

You might notice that the submarine type needed to pull off this scheme is a little out of Epstein's price range.

I want the underwater bar sub.:thumbsup:
 
Vixen said:
Nothing. Your question was to do with evidence he was a spy. I answered he was in possession of a fake passport. A Saudi Arabian one.

Now why would Epstein, a one-time maths teacher from blue-collar Brooklyn, dad a gardener, be in possession of a fake passport (some say several) and a seemingly endless pot of wealth?
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Epstein's wealth has been explained to a point. Nobody outside of the FBI has seen his books.

As for the fake Saudi passport goes the Saudis and the Arabian Peninsula have long been a central hub for human trafficking, but having one makes him a criminal, not a spy.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Give it time.
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Yes. And I should have added - currently. I remember a time when Jewish mysticism was thought of as Satanic in the popular imagination (without people necessarily knowing that the terms referred to Jewish mysticism).
 
But then again I recall when "legerdemain" was used as a word to describe sinister occult or Satanic practices whereas it is obviously simply a word referring to stage magic.
 
Axxman300 said:
She is talking about the problem of plastics pollution in the oceans. She refers to being in a DDS (Deep Diving Submersible) which holds maybe four people. She does not say if she was piloting the vehicle.

You do not need a license to pilot a submarine depending on its size. And the USCG requires a Master's License for a vessel of equivalent tonnage.



You've linked to a nutjob website.

There are no reports of any construction on his island on that scale.

You're getting carried away with goofball BS. Why are you allergic to the facts of how the world works?

1. You don't need submarines or tunnels to move people. Esptein moved his girls right out in the open in front of everyone.

2. Epstein got away with it because nobody bothered to ask questions, not because they were silenced, but apathy.

3. It is not hard to manipulate teenage girls and easy to scare them into silence.

I ask again, why aren't the facts enough for you? Why chases phantom Satanists?
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Maxwell has submarine credentials. Your number 3 is clearly nonsense. Do you really believe Mr Dirty Old Man can get away with procuring literally hundreds of teens for two or three decades without at least a few of them fighting back very hard indeed?

You can be in denial that such people exist. That is your prerogative.
 
Axxman300 said:
Get out your check-book:

https://www.mysubmarines.com/

You might notice that the submarine type needed to pull off this scheme is a little out of Epstein's price range.

I want the underwater bar sub.:thumbsup:
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Maxwell set up the TerraMar foundation. It involved people like Richard Branson (hello? he can afford a whole fleet of Boeings).

Robert Maxwell almost certainly managed to salt away a few million/billion which his daughter Ghislaine has clearly got her hands on. After his death you would have thought that the Maxwells would be bankrupt with their criminally gotten gains through raiding pension funds but no, Ghislaine has been rolling in money.
 
abaddon said:
It doesn't matter. What you are doing is claiming that any religion which does not mention jesus is satanism.
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If that is the hegemony then is that not true? Were you to be in Iran you'd be called an infidel. 'Twas e'er thus.
 
Vixen said:
If that is the hegemony then is that not true? Were you to be in Iran you'd be called an infidel. 'Twas e'er thus.
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What utter rot. The lack of a mention of jesus in any religion does not make said religion satanism. That is an impossibly naive idea.

And anyway, jesus cannot even be demonstrated to have existed.
 
Belz... said:
How about you respond to the post you quoted, rather than launch into irrelevancies?



Absolutely not.

Your principal claim, and the title of this thread, is about Satanism. I'm asking you about Satanism and you keep changing the subject. That doesn't sound very confident.
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Still dodging questions, Vixen?
 
Vixen said:
… Richard Branson (hello? he can afford a whole fleet of Boeings).
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He doesn't keep them as personal toys in his garden. As you fully appreciate, he can't afford a fleet of Boeings; he can get the credit required to begin paying for them and they have to generate the cash to cover their own cost.

Robert Maxwell almost certainly managed to salt away a few million/billion which his daughter Ghislaine has clearly got her hands on. After his death you would have thought that the Maxwells would be bankrupt with their criminally gotten gains through raiding pension funds but no, Ghislaine has been rolling in money.
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If Ghislaine Maxwell was a billionaire why didn't Epstein end up working for her on her private island?
 
Vixen said:
If that is the hegemony then is that not true? Were you to be in Iran you'd be called an infidel. 'Twas e'er thus.
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But your very example here is an example of the way 'tis not. Everyone who is not a Muslim is an infidel to them. A person who does not have the faith. They do not say that everyone who is not a Muslim is a Christian, or a Jew, or a Sikh. Likewise, we might be justified in considering mystics and occultists together, but we would be fools to call them all Satanists.

A set is not a subset. We often speak of categories for convenience, but to presume that everyone in a broad category belongs to one of the subcategories is a common mistake when it is not (as it often is) a common practice of demagogues, racists and fear mongers.
 
Craig4 said:
I'll ask Prince Andrew. I understand his calendar is suddenly rather open.
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Yeah, that's one. I haven't really been following his case, do you know if there is any evidence against him other than this one woman's say-so?
 
Mycroft said:
Yeah, that's one. I haven't really been following his case, do you know if there is any evidence against him other than this one woman's say-so?
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And there's a picture proving they were together at the home of an Epstein associate implicated in the human trafficking charge. Andrew had denied meeting her. Andrew met with and stayed with Epstein after his conviction. That there is proof positive that Andrew met the girl at an Epstein associated property and he lied about it indicates a level of consciousness of guilt.
 
abaddon said:
What utter rot. The lack of a mention of jesus in any religion does not make said religion satanism. That is an impossibly naive idea.

And anyway, jesus cannot even be demonstrated to have existed.
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I am sure you are right. However, this is not a thread about whether there is such a thing as 'satan' or whether Jesus existed.

It's about whether Epstein ran a secret cult to facilitate a sex ring for the rich and influential, in which otherwise 'upright citizens' and 'pillars of the community' felt quite unabashed to attend and even participate.

Would you associate with the local sex offender? And yet people like Clinton and Prince Andrew did.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
He doesn't keep them as personal toys in his garden. As you fully appreciate, he can't afford a fleet of Boeings; he can get the credit required to begin paying for them and they have to generate the cash to cover their own cost.



If Ghislaine Maxwell was a billionaire why didn't Epstein end up working for her on her private island?
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Follow the money trail. Epstein got the NY mansion, Islands and New Mexico ranch by Power of Attorney from Les Wexner (of Victoria Secrets, L Brand empire). Why a man in full possession of his faculties would want to hand over control of his wealth to a two-bit maths teacher from blue-collar Brooklyn is left for you to guess at (and by all accounts, Wexner was Epstein's ONLY client).

However, Epstein transferred Wexner's NY mansion and other estates into his name and bought the islands with Wexner's funds.

So you see, Ghislaine Maxwell didn't need to spend a cent on any of them. As his partner she got to enjoy the third-party wealth.

What was in it for Epstein? I can't imagine any Significant Other being well pleased with a never ending queue of teenage 'masseuers' turning up at the door of her beloved SO and being sexually assaulted by him in her presence. According to the alleged abused teens now taking out lawsuits, it was Ghislaine who acted as a procurer. In other words, she was little more than a common Madam.

In addition, as a well-known socialite who knew how to throw parties, she was useful for Epstein's networking and able to connect supply with demand. The commodity for Epstein being teenage girls for massages, sex and orgies. No questions asked, discretion assured, complete confidentiality, immune from prosecution.

How did this work? Blackmail. Videotapes. Corruption in high places.
 
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bruto said:
But your very example here is an example of the way 'tis not. Everyone who is not a Muslim is an infidel to them. A person who does not have the faith. They do not say that everyone who is not a Muslim is a Christian, or a Jew, or a Sikh. Likewise, we might be justified in considering mystics and occultists together, but we would be fools to call them all Satanists.

A set is not a subset. We often speak of categories for convenience, but to presume that everyone in a broad category belongs to one of the subcategories is a common mistake when it is not (as it often is) a common practice of demagogues, racists and fear mongers.
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I don't think anyone assumes that at all. A poster was decrying the fact that satanists were considered to be baddies as they rejected the teachings of Christ. However, that is the social mores. People get their children christened. No parent says, I'm going to get my child satanised. It is neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so. People in society do find satanist behaviour shocking, whether they are right to do so or wrong, or even ignorant.

It is not true that Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Jedi, etcetera, are considered in our society to be 'satanic'. Only religious zealots would claim that.

People do associate the occult with the 'dark forces' whatever that may be, whether it's the Nazi Third Reich, Alistair Crowley, the Masons and other secret ancient Egytian-styled cults and 'satanic' is simply the generic term used for them. Trying to narrow the term down to fans of Anton LeFey, Jimmy Page, Marilyn Manson or Damien Echols is reductio ad absurdum. A logical fallacy.
 
Vixen said:
I am sure you are right. However, this is not a thread about whether there is such a thing as 'satan' or whether Jesus existed.

It's about whether Epstein ran a secret cult to facilitate a sex ring for the rich and influential, in which otherwise 'upright citizens' and 'pillars of the community' felt quite unabashed to attend and even participate.
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You clearly associated satan and satanism into that equation. Too late to back out now.

You are going to have to let go of the fear and superstition created entirely by clergy for exactly the purpose of engendering said fear and superstition in their flocks.

Was Epstein and various other "pillars of society" engaged in sleazy, illegal and indeed utterly horrendous activities? There seems little doubt of that.

Could the term "ring" be correctly applied? Sure.

But the hysterical hyperbole of "satanic" anything is risible.


Vixen said:
Would you associate with the local sex offender?
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How would I or anyone else know that they were associating with any sex offender? Do you go record checking everyone you meet?

Vixen said:
And yet people like Clinton and Prince Andrew did.
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Andrew has no excuse since since he was still associating with Epstein after his conviction. Don't know if Clinton was so can't comment.
 
abaddon said:
You clearly associated satan and satanism into that equation. Too late to back out now.

You are going to have to let go of the fear and superstition created entirely by clergy for exactly the purpose of engendering said fear and superstition in their flocks.

Was Epstein and various other "pillars of society" engaged in sleazy, illegal and indeed utterly horrendous activities? There seems little doubt of that.

Could the term "ring" be correctly applied? Sure.

But the hysterical hyperbole of "satanic" anything is risible.


How would I or anyone else know that they were associating with any sex offender? Do you go record checking everyone you meet?

Andrew has no excuse since since he was still associating with Epstein after his conviction. Don't know if Clinton was so can't comment.
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Why is it risible? You can claim it is manufactured fear but the fact is, people do buy into it.

For example, a bunch of schoolgirls play with a ouija board for a laugh. For most of those schoolkids it remains 'laugh', even if something weird happens. Others will rationalise the weird event as someone manipulating the board or the glass. Maybe one of them will sincerely believe something sinister happened. Who are you or I to know which of these groups of people are right? Saying, it's rubbish, doesn't make it so.

There was the case of famous musician. Graham Bond, of the Graham Bond Organisation, precurser to The Cream, who certainly believed in satanism. He was involved in a Black Magic psychic fight with other practitioners and ended up killing himself.

Graham Bond reunited with his former bandmates in the early 1970s, playing with Ginger Baker's Air Force and also spending a short time touring with Jack Bruce's band. He subsequently signed a contract with Vertigo Records and was reportedly off drugs by this time, although he was becoming increasingly obsessed with black magic. Bond died in May 1974, when he was hit by a train at London's Finsbury Park underground station.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Graham_Bond_Organisation

Now you can sit at your laptop jeering, rubbish! But it wasn't rubbish for this particular individual.

Likewise, Epstein theming his sex parties around satanic symbolism might just be seen as a 'laugh' by some but for others, who knows, they might really have believed they were spiritually protected by being in the sex ring.

Certainly nobody has ever been prosecuted for what is clearly an international sex ring involving prominent figures, apart from a nominal 13-month sentence for procuring a prostitute (note, not 'sex trafficking', which specifies underage girls, a much more serious offence) of which Epstein was given huge amounts of day release which he spent at his office on a Caribbean Island.
 
Vixen said:
It's about whether Epstein ran a secret cult to facilitate a sex ring for the rich and influential, in which otherwise 'upright citizens' and 'pillars of the community' felt quite unabashed to attend and even participate.
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Many are persuaded that the highlighted part is likely substantially true.

This thread is about the non-highlighted part and the paucity of supporting evidence, which fails to keep pace with your imagination as it gallops over the horizon.
 
Vixen said:
I don't think anyone assumes that at all. A poster was decrying the fact that satanists were considered to be baddies as they rejected the teachings of Christ. However, that is the social mores. People get their children christened. No parent says, I'm going to get my child satanised. It is neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so. People in society do find satanist behaviour shocking, whether they are right to do so or wrong, or even ignorant.

It is not true that Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Jedi, etcetera, are considered in our society to be 'satanic'. Only religious zealots would claim that.

People do associate the occult with the 'dark forces' whatever that may be, whether it's the Nazi Third Reich, Alistair Crowley, the Masons and other secret ancient Egytian-styled cults and 'satanic' is simply the generic term used for them. Trying to narrow the term down to fans of Anton LeFey, Jimmy Page, Marilyn Manson or Damien Echols is reductio ad absurdum. A logical fallacy.
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You seem to have missed my point. You have said more or less that all occult beliefs are functionally equivalent to "satanism" because satanism is an occult belief and shares much with many. If that was not what you meant when you said it, you said it badly. You then introduced the idea of Muslims characterizing all non-Muslims as "infidels" as an example.

I point out that although all non Muslims are infidels to them, this does not mean that all infidels are the same. The Muslims call us all infidels but they do not call us all Christians. That would be a large category mistake which they do not, as far as I know, make. You may consider "Satanism" a generic term for occult beliefs, but most would not. There are, for one thing, a fair number of deeply occult beliefs (or cults if you prefer) which espouse Christian ideas and oppose Satan as much as any mainstream Christian religions.

You can go round and round and try to justify sloppy categorization and a poor choice of words, but like it or not, dabbling in the occult does not make a person a satanist, and I have yet to see any evidence that Epstein was anything but a deviant, power hungry showman with bad taste.

And as an aside, not everyone has their children christened, and the choice is not binary.
 
Belz... said:
Well first you could own up to the fact that Baal is not an Egyptian god.
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When I frequented the British Museum there appeared to be quite a lot of 'bull' diety figures and the name Apis is oft-noted as is Ba'al.

Mentioned in Exodus 32 and I Kings 12 in the Old Testament, worship of the golden calf is seen as a supreme act of apostasy, the rejection of a faith once confessed. The figure is probably a representation of the Egyptian bull god Apis in the earlier period and of the Canaanite fertility god Baal in the latter.
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https://www.britannica.com/topic/golden-calf

All right. Let's correct it then:

'Worshipping ancient Egyptian, Caanite, Sumerian, Hittite deities.' However, that would have the subject unreasonably unwieldy.
 
Vixen said:
When I frequented the British Museum there appeared to be quite a lot of 'bull' diety figures and the name Apis is oft-noted as is Ba'al.
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Associating gods across different mythologies is fun but Ba'al is not an Egyptian god, regardless of how many cow deities you can find.

All right. Let's correct it then:

'Worshipping ancient Egyptian, Caanite, Sumerian, Hittite deities.' However, that would have the subject unreasonably unwieldy.
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What is that supposed to correct?

You said that the bible spoke of Ba'al as a clear reference to egyptian gods. That is incorrect, isn't it?
 
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