The Trump Presidency: Part 18

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TragicMonkey said:
Or the pope lives in a palace stuffed with art treasures while heading a religion based on rejecting material wealth. Although I do think that one may not be completely unfair.
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To be fair at a certain point it would certainly become a problem.

Nobody (hopefully) is saying it's wrong to never eyeroll at the very least at hypocrisy at any point.

But "I get to pretend this problem doesn't exist until someone argues against it from a position of 100% moral perfection"

And even beyond that "Sometimes you have to use resources even if your overreaching argument is about preserving resources" is hardly the kind of thing we should have to justify or stop the discussion to explain.
 
turingtest said:
Theodore Roosevelt once called the Presidency a "bully pulpit," with "bully" meaning "excellent, first rate"; the thrust of his phrase just being that the Presidency as a position is a great one for getting one's view's out there. Trump, I think, takes the "bully" bit too literally- he thinks it's a place from which to browbeat people into submission.
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Assuming he's put that much thought into it (which I'm not 100% sold on) I think he's adopted the same mythology we're getting from a certain somewhere on this board; "The people elected me, therefore everything I do is justified or they wouldn't have elected me."

Basically Trump is trying to pull a perverted twisted version of the "If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best" card in politics. Except he has no best and his worst is god awful.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Assuming he's put that much thought into it (which I'm not 100% sold on) I think he's adopted the same mythology we're getting from a certain somewhere on this board; "The people elected me, therefore everything I do is justified or they wouldn't have elected me."

Basically Trump is trying to pull a perverted twisted version of the "If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best" card in politics. Except he has no best and his worst is god awful.
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In Chinese history that was called the Mandate of Heaven. The idea was everything a given emperor did was legit and acceptable to Heaven because if it weren't he'd be overthrown. Conversely any emperor who did get overthrown thereby clearly demonstrated he had lost the Mandate of Heaven so the overthrow was totally justified. Otherwise it couldn't have occurred.
 
varwoche said:
There are vast legions of ascetics who live in caves, wear recycled potato sacks for clothing, who eschew electricity, telephones, computers and other modern conveniences, and who advocate for policies to reduce greenhouse emissions. The problem is, we never hear from them.
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Sure we do - you just have to be familiar with their websites! Or follow them on Twitter.
 
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So political trial by combat? Let's the Gods decide?

Yeah I can see Trump and his enablers grooving on the wavelength, even if they don't fully think of it themselves in that way.

Dear God the irony that would occur if all this is happening because Trump is basically on some level going "Well I can't be doing that bad because they haven't stopped me yet" would tear this universe asunder if would be so powerful.

It's like the old joke about "Well no time travelers from the future have shown up to stop me from doing what I'm about to do... so how bad could it be really?"
 
TragicMonkey said:
In Chinese history that was called the Mandate of Heaven. The idea was everything a given emperor did was legit and acceptable to Heaven because if it weren't he'd be overthrown. Conversely any emperor who did get overthrown thereby clearly demonstrated he had lost the Mandate of Heaven so the overthrow was totally justified. Otherwise it couldn't have occurred.
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Forget Chinese history, there are Americans saying this **** about Trump right now.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Sure we do - you just have to be familiar with their websites! Or follow them on Twitter.
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Not quite. That's a different vast legion of ascetics. Websites require hosting. Data centers are notorious consumers of electricity. Your vast legion of ascetics with websites (VLAWW) is a hypocrite with no standing on these matters.

Don't worry, it's a common mistake.
 
JoeMorgue said:
No that's no joke. It's not even subtext. It's not even the text it's the headline.

"We don't need to worry about the environment because God" isn't some fringe ulterior motive, it's the open and admitted major factor in why America's environmental policy is currently somewhere between "Let's be charitable and say less then perfect" and "Thanos."
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Evangelicals have been spouting that excuse for years.
 
TragicMonkey said:
They might want to study Chinese history and discover why there aren't any emperors any more.
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Well, that's obviously also God's will!


And that's what really pisses me off about these guys - it's all "God's will!" when their candidate wins, but they never stop to ask, oh, let's say, "Why did God want Obama to win?"
 
Horatius said:
Forget Chinese history, there are Americans saying this **** about Trump right now.
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Some, like those cited here, are actual royalists while other (most of the rest) of the GOP are willing to act like that, or oligarchs, or warlords, or whatever, as long as they get to have the fancy name badges.

That's just one more reason to ignore most of them. One does not negotiate with serfs; you either bargain with or defeat their masters. The serfs will go along anyway.

That is not at all to say people need to abandon making reasonable arguments or start acting like them of course. It is only to explain why the reactions are what they are.
 
It's not an exact science, and of course people have multiple motivations and reasons much of the time, but if I had to put a very rough number on it (not adding up to 100% to account for variance and overlap)

~ 10-20% of Trump supporters have honestly and truly turned him, on some level, into a kind of demagogue figure.
~ 20-30% of Trump supporters are doing the whole "Yeah he's bad, but the Democrats would be worst" thing.
~20-40% have just drunk the Koolaid and really think he's the best thing for the country.
~10-20% are just trolls hopping the system fall apart for various nihilistic or selfish reasons.
 
JoeMorgue said:
It's not an exact science, and of course people have multiple motivations and reasons much of the time, but if I had to put a very rough number on it (not adding up to 100% to account for variance and overlap)

~ 10-20% of Trump supporters have honestly and truly turned him, on some level, into a kind of demagogue figure.
~ 20-30% of Trump supporters are doing the whole "Yeah he's bad, but the Democrats would be worst" thing.
~20-40% have just drunk the Koolaid and really think he's the best thing for the country.
~10-20% are just trolls hopping the system fall apart for various nihilistic or selfish reasons.
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You seem to be ignoring the Trumpsters who are in it because he is so maddening to Liberals.
These people have no consistent ideology, but find it gratifying that he bothers us "elites" so much.
I think they are separate from those who are "hoping the system falls apart", in fact, I think they have more faith in the resiliency of "the system" than is warranted.

I fear that if the system really does come apart it will be "us" ,not them, tearing it down out of frustration.
Perhaps that is a narrative we should own up to?
 
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Armitage72 said:
You're joking, but shortly after I started working at my current job, the company newsletter contained an article about anthropogenic climate change written by the VP of the R&D division. Someone responded with an angry post on the anonymous forum on the company website, saying that the article only presented one narrow view, people would remain on Earth as long as God wanted us to, and it was incredible arrogance to think that humans could significantly impact God's plan.
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That argument keeps popping up. Theists can't decide whether humans have free will or whether they can't affect the course of the universe.
 
JoeMorgue said:
So political trial by combat? Let's the Gods decide?

Yeah I can see Trump and his enablers grooving on the wavelength, even if they don't fully think of it themselves in that way.

Dear God the irony that would occur if all this is happening because Trump is basically on some level going "Well I can't be doing that bad because they haven't stopped me yet" would tear this universe asunder if would be so powerful.

It's like the old joke about "Well no time travelers from the future have shown up to stop me from doing what I'm about to do... so how bad could it be really?"
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For Trump it is simply that he can't conceive he can't do whatever he wants whenever he wants so everything he does is right and "perfect". The words "no" and "you can't" do not exist for him.
 
Trump Tweeted

My Approval Rating in the Republican Party is 95%, a Record. Thank you! #2020Election

Poll numbers have gone through the roof in favor of No Impeachment, especially with Swing States and Independents in Swing States. People have figured out that the Democrats have no case, it is a total Hoax. Even Pelosi admitted yesterday that she began this scam 2 1/2 years ago!

The Do Nothing Democrats have become the Party of lies and deception! The Republicans are the Party of the American Dream!

The Republican Party is more united now than at any time in its history - by far!

Congratulations to
@foxandfriends
on being named, BY FAR, the Number One Rated cable news show. CNN and MSNBC have totally tanked, their ratings are terrible. They have zero credibility!

Record Stock Market & Jobs!

The Wall Street Journal story on the China Deal is completely wrong, especially their statement on Tariffs. Fake News. They should find a better leaker!
 
Trump Tweets

We have agreed to a very large Phase One Deal with China. They have agreed to many structural changes and massive purchases of Agricultural Product, Energy, and Manufactured Goods, plus much more. The 25% Tariffs will remain as is, with 7 1/2% put on much of the remainder....

.....The Penalty Tariffs set for December 15th will not be charged because of the fact that we made the deal. We will begin negotiations on the Phase Two Deal immediately, rather than waiting until after the 2020 Election. This is an amazing deal for all. Thank you!
 
Lets just call Melania what she is. A TWO FACED Bitch.

Barely mention Barron and she throws a hissy fit. Her husband attacks a 16 year old girl and she doesn't utter a word.
 
Rumor has it that everyone in his circle is bracing for The PDJT's thrashback when this whole Impeachment business is over, regardless of the outcome. They think he's going to look for Rambo-style payback, big time.
 
acbytesla said:
Lets just call Melania what she is. A TWO FACED Bitch.

Barely mention Barron and she throws a hissy fit. Her husband attacks a 16 year old girl and she doesn't utter a word.
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Melania's defense is that Barron isn't "an activist who travels the globe giving speeches".

Somehow, in her mind, that justifies her bully of a husband mocking a teenager on the autism spectrum. Trump wasn't replying to anything Thunberg had said or done. He was attacking her because she was chosen to be Time's Person of the Year and he wasn't. Just Be Best, Donnie!
 
alfaniner said:
Rumor has it that everyone in his circle is bracing for The PDJT's thrashback when this whole Impeachment business is over, regardless of the outcome. They think he's going to look for Rambo-style payback, big time.
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It would be totally in line with his petty, revenge seeking behavior history. He's certainly going to be emboldened knowing the GOP has his back no matter what he does.
 
Stacyhs said:
Melania's defense is that Barron isn't "an activist who travels the globe giving speeches".

Somehow, in her mind, that justifies her bully of a husband mocking a teenager on the autism spectrum. Trump wasn't replying to anything Thunberg had said or done. He was attacking her because she was chosen to be Time's Person of the Year and he wasn't. Just Be Best, Donnie!
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She can justify it any way she wants. The DOESN'T make her any less a cowardly two faced bitch.
 
JoeMorgue said:
It's not an exact science, and of course people have multiple motivations and reasons much of the time, but if I had to put a very rough number on it (not adding up to 100% to account for variance and overlap)

~ 10-20% of Trump supporters have honestly and truly turned him, on some level, into a kind of demagogue figure.
~ 20-30% of Trump supporters are doing the whole "Yeah he's bad, but the Democrats would be worst" thing.
~20-40% have just drunk the Koolaid and really think he's the best thing for the country.
~10-20% are just trolls hopping the system fall apart for various nihilistic or selfish reasons.
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Where do the "Trump supporters who would support Mickey Mouse If he were a Republican" come in?
 
alfaniner said:
Rumor has it that everyone in his circle is bracing for The PDJT's thrashback when this whole Impeachment business is over, regardless of the outcome. They think he's going to look for Rambo-style payback, big time.
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Which is why I contiure to suggest it might come down to literal civil war.
 
Maybe it's my partisan bias, but I honestly do not understand why someone would be upset by the Barron comment. I'm also not a parent, perhaps that factors into it too.
 
Horatius said:
Well, that's obviously also God's will!


And that's what really pisses me off about these guys - it's all "God's will!" when their candidate wins, but they never stop to ask, oh, let's say, "Why did God want Obama to win?"
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When their guy wins, it's a reward; when the other guy wins, it's a test. That's the nice thing about having a faith where god's will is simply "whatever happens"- there are no goalposts, so every action is a score.
 
So looks like the Supreme court will be ruling on whether Trump's financial records should be released by summer of next year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...peals-subpoena-fights-over-financial-n1101901
The U.S. Supreme Court agreed Friday to hear President Donald Trump's appeal of lower court orders, now on hold, that require his banks and accountants to turn over financial records to the House and local prosecutors in New York.The cases could yield major rulings on the power of the House to demand records for its investigations and the authority of a president to resist such demands. By granting review now, the justices made it possible for these cases to be heard during the current court term, in March, with a decision by the end of June...

I've kind of got mixed feelings about that.

On one hand, it would have been good for them to have ruled sooner, so that if the courts ruled against Trump the information could have been included in any impeachment proceedings. (But I do recognize that these cases take a long time to work its way though the courts.)

On the other hand, having the information released in the middle of the election could be much more damaging to Trump. And if the courts should happen to rule in Trump's favor, it might help encourage Trump's opposition to go to the polls (since they would have the "Look how Trump is rigging the system" argument to use.)
 
Segnosaur said:
So looks like the Supreme court will be ruling on whether Trump's financial records should be released by summer of next year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...peals-subpoena-fights-over-financial-n1101901
The U.S. Supreme Court agreed Friday to hear President Donald Trump's appeal of lower court orders, now on hold, that require his banks and accountants to turn over financial records to the House and local prosecutors in New York.The cases could yield major rulings on the power of the House to demand records for its investigations and the authority of a president to resist such demands. By granting review now, the justices made it possible for these cases to be heard during the current court term, in March, with a decision by the end of June...

I've kind of got mixed feelings about that.

On one hand, it would have been good for them to have ruled sooner, so that if the courts ruled against Trump the information could have been included in any impeachment proceedings. (But I do recognize that these cases take a long time to work its way though the courts.)

On the other hand, having the information released in the middle of the election could be much more damaging to Trump. And if the courts should happen to rule in Trump's favor, it might help encourage Trump's opposition to go to the polls (since they would have the "Look how Trump is rigging the system" argument to use.)
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I read this and concluded democracy has died in America. The court should have just passed on taking the case. There is nothing new in this case that hasn't been ruled on countless times before. The ONLY reason the court took up the case was political partisanship. It's clear that they are protecting Trump.

The AMERICAN experiment is over.
 
acbytesla said:
I read this and concluded democracy has died in America. The court should have just passed on taking the case. There is nothing new in this case that hasn't been ruled on countless times before. The ONLY reason the court took up the case was political partisanship. It's clear that they are protecting Trump.

The AMERICAN experiment is over.
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I agree that it should probably have been a slam-dunk case. But, according to the article, there were 'no noted dissents' to taking the case, so for some reason the more Liberal judges also think there are valid reasons rule on it.
 
alfaniner said:
Rumor has it that everyone in his circle is bracing for The PDJT's thrashback when this whole Impeachment business is over, regardless of the outcome. They think he's going to look for Rambo-style payback, big time.
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They're not doing so well when it comes to their investigations of perceived political enemies. And "regardless of the outcome"? You think they'll get any traction if he's removed?

I don't think he will be, of course.
 
alfaniner said:
Rumor has it that everyone in his circle is bracing for The PDJT's thrashback when this whole Impeachment business is over, regardless of the outcome. They think he's going to look for Rambo-style payback, big time.
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Of course he will. He can't even restrain himself from going after a 16 year old autistic girl because she dared criticize him and was chosen Person of the Year.
 
turingtest said:
Theodore Roosevelt once called the Presidency a "bully pulpit," with "bully" meaning "excellent, first rate"; the thrust of his phrase just being that the Presidency as a position is a great one for getting one's view's out there. Trump, I think, takes the "bully" bit too literally- he thinks it's a place from which to browbeat people into submission.
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I doubt if Trump has any idea that TR meant something different.
 
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