Monkey See. Monkey Do. Oops $12 million.

PhantomWolf said:
I am guessing then if I got a photo of you and posted it to the internet with the words "Pedo-Guy" on it, then as long as it was just a joke and no harm meant, you'd be all fine with it?
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psionl0 said:
What a malicious thing to make up!
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PhantomWolf said:
It's not malicious, it's a joke, just like calling a Black person a monkey, so what's the harm?
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psionl0 said:
I say it's a malicious attempt to defame me with false information and cause me harm.
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I guess "Freedom of Speech"TM is conditional after all
 
PhantomWolf said:
Quashing freedom of speech then, or do you also accept that Blacks put in a photo that refers to them as Monkeys might also consider that "a malicious attempt to defame with false information and cause harm."
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Are you really saying that the photo was intended to make people believe that the teens were monkeys? That's seriously overreaching.

smartcooky said:
I guess "Freedom of Speech"TM is conditional after all
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Yes but not because of PhantomWolf's silly example.
 
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psionl0 said:
Are you really saying that the photo was intended to make people believe that the teens were monkeys? That's seriously overreaching.


Yes but not because of PhantomWolf's silly example.
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Sounds a bit silly, doesn’t it. So probably not that.
 
psionl0 said:
Are you really saying that the photo was intended to make people believe that the teens were monkeys? That's seriously overreaching.


Yes but not because of PhantomWolf's silly example.
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I'm interested in what you think the photo manipulation was intended to do.
 
As someone said earlier “monkey see, monkey do” is an insult in its own right. But the stubborn insistence for some to complete ignore the context (ie, that the kids are black) is what makes the defence of this teacher literally unbelievable.

Tell you what, how about some of these defenders go to a black neighbourhood and yell out “monkey see, monkey do, hey it’s only a saying”. Do you seriously think all you would get is nods and amused smiles? Of course you don’t.

So cut out this “it’s just an old saying” ********. There is no context that excuses what this teacher did. Was it intentional? I don’t care. “Didn’t mean it” is no excuse for racism.
 
Here's a radical idea.

Maybe, just maybe, if black people don't want to be called monkeys you just... don't call them monkeys instead of launching an expedition to find an excuse as to why it's not that big of a deal?

Again not everyone's goal in life is to be the biggest jerk possible while still being "Technically not in the wrong."

And that's all in the insane fantasy world world where this isn't an legit problem.
 
Somewhere along the journey of posing four students in a strange way, taking a photo, captioning that photo, and sharing that photo publicly, a teacher ought to ask themselves "Is this really stupid and likely to result in me getting ****-canned?"

The answer here is undoubtedly yes.
 
The issue here is not whether it is okay to do this. It was obviously offensive. The issue is whether this teacher is a racist, and if the school maintained and enabled a culture of racist behavior, and if the damages are in any kind of proportion to the action.

I think the guy was clean, if thoughtless. This should be one of those 'oh god, I didn't think it would be taken like that, I'm so sorry' and the teacher et al explain themselves and apologize. Maybe have an assembly to talk about being hip to innocent playing around that can inadvertently hurt others, and having respect for those around you who are legitimately offended, even though there was no demeaning intent.

Instead, the school is labeled a bunch of racists and a heavy duty shakedown is underway. That's the part that doesn't sit right.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Somewhere along the journey of posing four students in a strange way, taking a photo, captioning that photo, and sharing that photo publicly, a teacher ought to ask themselves "Is this really stupid and likely to result in me getting ****-canned?"

The answer here is undoubtedly yes.
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I'm not sure about that. In one sense, it's obviously yes.

But in a social setting where hijinks of this kind have long been acknowledged as harmless fun, and where the teacher has repeatedly gotten feedback that what they're doing is okay and even desirable, it's different.

The prevalent workplace norms have an effect on the people that work there. Stay in one workplace long enough, and you start to lose awareness of any outside context that might act as a counterbalance. What might seem weird or bizarre to an outsider ends up seeming pretty normal to long-time insiders. (This can actually be a problem for people like young college grads who are entering the workforce for the first time, and don't yet know what the norms are. If they land in a dysfunctional organization with their first job, it can poison their understanding of appropriate workplace behavior and cost them better jobs later on.)

So I'd give it a "qualified yes".

Yes, they probably should have stopped and asked themselves at several points along the way. But if they'd been getting enough positive feedback over a long enough period, the instinct to stop and ask may have been dulled to the point of uselessness. I don't think that they can be wholly to blame for such degradation of awareness.
 
theprestige said:
I'm not sure about that. In one sense, it's obviously yes.

But in a social setting where hijinks of this kind have long been acknowledged as harmless fun, and where the teacher has repeatedly gotten feedback that what they're doing is okay and even desirable, it's different.
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And this is why it is not just the teacher's problem, but the district's. Management, leadership, administration, whatever you want to call it, should have seen "jokes at the expense of kids" as the mine field that it is and stopped that chicanery years ago. It was only a matter of time before "harmless joke at the expense of kids" ends up with "parent suing".

I know it is not popular, but the old adage that you should only "punch up" in humor could have saved a lot of grief here.
 
Dr. Keith said:
And this is why it is not just the teacher's problem, but the district's. Management, leadership, administration, whatever you want to call it, should have seen "jokes at the expense of kids" as the mine field that it is and stopped that chicanery years ago. It was only a matter of time before "harmless joke at the expense of kids" ends up with "parent suing".

I know it is not popular, but the old adage that you should only "punch up" in humor could have saved a lot of grief here.
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I tend to agree. But the principle of punching up in comedy is relatively new.

And this kind of sounds like the kind of thing that started innocently, years ago, with (white) students who were in on the joke. Then it became tradition. Then the origins were forgotten and the practice was taken for granted. Then, long after everyone had stopped thinking to ask about whether it was a good idea, a scenario arose where it was a bad idea, and nobody was in the proper frame of mind to realize it anymore.
 
William Parcher said:
They poke fun at students of all races. They don't care about race. So they were doing the same thing they always do but this time they made a big error without realizing it.
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Like the politician George Allen who called a indian campaign aide "macaca". That is of course a traditional slur for french people to refer to blacks by calling them monkeys. He couldn't even use the ethnic slur properly, and how can you respect a politician who does that?
 
Safe-Keeper said:
People like this just brings my piss to a boil. There are people out there experiencing actual traumatic things. I just watched the first two episodes of a Norwegian TV series dramatazing the July 22nd attacks here in Norway. That's an event that scarred people forever. That's traumatic. That's life-ruining. That's something people might never get over, and struggle with 30 years from now.
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And that shows how weak queer people are killing themselves over a little nothing level harassment compared to being in mass shootings. They just need to toughen up a bit. Childhood harrassment for that is totally nothing and should not be regarded as a serious issue to anyone.
 
Thermal said:
My own father called me Sue and made a ton of gay cracks when I was a long haired teen. My own mother said I looked like a punk. I wonder how many millions they owe me? Maybe I should contact this OP lawyer...
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And that was good and toughened you up, that is why we should be glad when say a trans kid who is bullied by their parents kills themselves or something because it means we are all tougher for weeding out the snowflakes like that.

If these kids can not take racist harassment in school how are they going to be adjusted for it in their adult lives? It will be a constant that is a given so we need to make sure they get used to it early.
 
Thermal said:
The issue here is not whether it is okay to do this. It was obviously offensive. The issue is whether this teacher is a racist, and if the school maintained and enabled a culture of racist behavior, and if the damages are in any kind of proportion to the action.
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Nonsense, we can also take the view that it was racist and that is good as it will toughen them up for all the future racism they will have to deal with like your fathers bullying toughened you up.
 
We don't have to break out SJW Twittertumbler's official "Victim Ranking" chart and start talking about priviledge and punching outside our weight class to just go "Don't do it because it bothers people and there's literally no reason you have to do it."

Again what's the "But we have to keep calling black people monkey's because of.... reasons" reason we're having to balance all this "OMG FREEDOM OF SPEECH PEOPLE ARE TOO SENSITIVE SNOWFLAKES" crap against?
 
Dr. Keith said:
And this is why it is not just the teacher's problem, but the district's. Management, leadership, administration, whatever you want to call it, should have seen "jokes at the expense of kids" as the mine field that it is and stopped that chicanery years ago. It was only a matter of time before "harmless joke at the expense of kids" ends up with "parent suing".

I know it is not popular, but the old adage that you should only "punch up" in humor could have saved a lot of grief here.
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It could be that this was intended to be at their expense, but I don't see that it needs to be. Maybe that's because I'm from the UK. In my limited experience of the teaching world, the problem often comes when teachers think they are the kids friends and drop their guard.
 
Thermal said:
The issue here is not whether it is okay to do this. It was obviously offensive. The issue is whether this teacher is a racist, and if the school maintained and enabled a culture of racist behavior, and if the damages are in any kind of proportion to the action.

I think the guy was clean, if thoughtless. This should be one of those 'oh god, I didn't think it would be taken like that, I'm so sorry' and the teacher et al explain themselves and apologize. Maybe have an assembly to talk about being hip to innocent playing around that can inadvertently hurt others, and having respect for those around you who are legitimately offended, even though there was no demeaning intent.

Instead, the school is labeled a bunch of racists and a heavy duty shakedown is underway. That's the part that doesn't sit right.
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Surprised that we agree on this!

I can’t tell if the teacher is a racist, but the powerpoints were, which represents major problem #1. As you say, obviously offensive. At minimum the teacher cannot recognize racism, which represents major problem #2. As you say, obviously offensive. And he is a teacher! Recognizing racism and doing something about it is his job! The school district similarly seems ignorant and stupid in their response, major problem #3.

Hasn’t this been discussed already upthread?

I think that the inability of many people to recognize racism contributes enormously to the difficulty of fighting the overt racism itself.

P.S. Calling it a shakedown is not just blaming the victims but attacking them while trying to defend the bullies.
 
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Giordano said:
Surprised that we agree on this!

I can’t tell if the teacher is a racist, but the powerpoints were, which represents major problem #1. As you say, obviously offensive. At minimum the teacher cannot recognize racism, which represents major problem #2. As you say, obviously offensive. And he is a teacher! Recognizing racism and doing something about it is his job! The school district similarly seems ignorant and stupid in their response, major problem #3.
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My best guess is that the teacher and the school are in litigation defensive mode. Did the students bring this up to the teacher and administration first, or bee-line straight to the lawyer who has a convenient deposit slip in his hand? My guess is the latter, and I narrow my eyes at such claimants.

Hasn’t this been discussed already upthread?
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Yes, but peppered with baggage that I compulsively rail against.

I think that the inability of many people to recognize racism contributes enormously to the difficulty of fighting the overt racism itself.

P.S. Calling it a shakedown is not just blaming the victims but attacking them while trying to defend the bullies.
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This is my problem with this argument. The school seems apologetic, and acknowledges that it was a mistake on the teacher's part. I see no one bullying the students. I see a lawyer rubbing his hands together and a well-loved teacher about to be fired. No bueno, and not actually solving a problem.
 
Thermal said:
My best guess is that the teacher and the school are in litigation defensive mode. Did the students bring this up to the teacher and administration first, or bee-line straight to the lawyer who has a convenient deposit slip in his hand? My guess is the latter, and I narrow my eyes at such claimants.



Yes, but peppered with baggage that I compulsively rail against.



This is my problem with this argument. The school seems apologetic, and acknowledges that it was a mistake on the teacher's part. I see no one bullying the students. I see a lawyer rubbing his hands together and a well-loved teacher about to be fired. No bueno, and not actually solving a problem.
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IMHO your farsight is not fairsight. The reasons I believe this are explained upthread. I do not have the time or inclination to reiterate them.
 
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theprestige said:
I tend to agree. But the principle of punching up in comedy is relatively new.

And this kind of sounds like the kind of thing that started innocently, years ago, with (white) students who were in on the joke. Then it became tradition. Then the origins were forgotten and the practice was taken for granted. Then, long after everyone had stopped thinking to ask about whether it was a good idea, a scenario arose where it was a bad idea, and nobody was in the proper frame of mind to realize it anymore.
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Yep, which is why a clear rule that you don't make jokes about students is pretty basic to most schools. It is part of most bullying programs that I am aware of because a lot of bullies rely on the "just joking" fig leaf.

Jokes are always funny right up to the point they aren't. Seasoned comedians have trouble finding that line with an audience of adults, much less kids and their parents.

shuttlt said:
It could be that this was intended to be at their expense, but I don't see that it needs to be. Maybe that's because I'm from the UK. In my limited experience of the teaching world, the problem often comes when teachers think they are the kids friends and drop their guard.
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Agreed. "We are friends so I can make a joke about you. You know what I mean, you know we are buds, you know that I really don't mean to hurt you." When a teacher relies on the student's friendship to land a comment, then they are lost. The student is a minor, their reaction is just the first line to cross. The parent's reaction is the real issue.

A teacher had a nick name for one of my kids that my kid didn't mind. I politely asked the teacher to stop using it and they did. If it had been a demeaning name in any way, that conversation would have happened in the Principal's office, not parent-teacher night. Same if the teacher had persisted after my request.
 
Thermal said:
My best guess is that the teacher and the school are in litigation defensive mode. Did the students bring this up to the teacher and administration first, or bee-line straight to the lawyer who has a convenient deposit slip in his hand? My guess is the latter, and I narrow my eyes at such claimants.



Yes, but peppered with baggage that I compulsively rail against.



This is my problem with this argument. The school seems apologetic, and acknowledges that it was a mistake on the teacher's part. I see no one bullying the students. I see a lawyer rubbing his hands together and a well-loved teacher about to be fired. No bueno, and not actually solving a problem.
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So what? Does this ever indemnify anyone, anywhere, any time?
 
Thermal said:
This is my problem with this argument. The school seems apologetic, and acknowledges that it was a mistake on the teacher's part. I see no one bullying the students. I see a lawyer rubbing his hands together and a well-loved teacher about to be fired. No bueno, and not actually solving a problem.
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One of the students claims that the administrators took him aside and tried to coerce him into deleting evidence with threats of disciplinary action.

The students have also been encouraged to stop attending that class with no accommodation offered, which would result in an "incomplete" grade.

I don't see a school admitting a mistake. I see a school trying to make it go away by making life difficult for these students.

Sure, lawyers have financial incentives to launch lawsuits. That's the system we have. What alternative did these students have other than to just let the administration sweep it under the rug and punish the students for making a valid complaint?

The 12 million scare headline is not really that useful. Lawyers can sue for as much as they feel like. There's no indication that amount would ever be awarded.
 
theprestige said:
I'm not sure about that. In one sense, it's obviously yes.

But in a social setting where hijinks of this kind have long been acknowledged as harmless fun, and where the teacher has repeatedly gotten feedback that what they're doing is okay and even desirable, it's different.

The prevalent workplace norms have an effect on the people that work there. Stay in one workplace long enough, and you start to lose awareness of any outside context that might act as a counterbalance. What might seem weird or bizarre to an outsider ends up seeming pretty normal to long-time insiders. (This can actually be a problem for people like young college grads who are entering the workforce for the first time, and don't yet know what the norms are. If they land in a dysfunctional organization with their first job, it can poison their understanding of appropriate workplace behavior and cost them better jobs later on.)
So I'd give it a "qualified yes".

Yes, they probably should have stopped and asked themselves at several points along the way. But if they'd been getting enough positive feedback over a long enough period, the instinct to stop and ask may have been dulled to the point of uselessness. I don't think that they can be wholly to blame for such degradation of awareness.
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THIS

It is very prevalent in "instititional" workplaces such as hospitals, town councils and schools. These sorts of places tend to form closed off bubbles where the considerations of the outside world merit less attention and have less effect on the inside is the bubble. I have experienced this first hand in the military, both as a whole, and within units and trades inside the military, where the unit itself become a bubble in which other service personnel are seen as outsiders.
 
smartcooky said:
THIS

It is very prevalent in "instititional" workplaces such as hospitals, town councils and schools. These sorts of places tend to form closed off bubbles where the considerations of the outside world merit less attention and have less effect on the inside is the bubble. I have experienced this first hand in the military, both as a whole, and within units and trades inside the military, where the unit itself become a bubble in which other service personnel are seen as outsiders.
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Sure, individual workplaces have their own culture. Sometimes those cultures normalize bad behavior. This is a management problem.

Public shaming and/or an expensive lawsuit is a good way to force management to do something about it.
 
Belz... said:
Are people allowed to disagree without being hopelessly privileged?
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That’s a rather uncharitable take of what I am saying.

It is a calling out of blindness and trivialising of the injustices of being a minority in a society where you are treated daily as a second class citizen. A person who is member of the hegemony dismissing these kinds of injustices does so from a point of privilege by definition. If you are going to hand wave or trivialise issues like being likened to an ape with all it’s racist history, I will call it white privilege.
 
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Sideroxylon said:
That’s a rather uncharitable take of what I am saying.
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To be entirely fair what you said was short and not very nuanced.

It is a calling out of blindness and trivialising of the injustices of being a minority in a society where you are treated daily as a second class citizen.
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I understand that. But how do you know the skin colour of people who disagree with you? Or their creed? Or upbringing? Here's a radical idea: how about we judge the arguments on their merit?

Note that I said earlier on that I'm on the side that the teacher should be fired and the school fined at the very least.
 
We don't have to bring in the official TumblrTwitter approved SJW "Victim Ranking Flowchart" here.

We don't need to determine who's "punching up" (whatever the hell that means) to just go "We've established enough that comparing black people to monkey/apes is bad to A) not have to do it again and B) not sit here and listen to people pretend they just didn't know that."
 
Belz... said:
To be entirely fair what you said was short and not very nuanced.



I understand that. But how do you know the skin colour of people who disagree with you? Or their creed? Or upbringing? Here's a radical idea: how about we judge the arguments on their merit?

Note that I said earlier on that I'm on the side that the teacher should be fired and the school fined at the very least.
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It’s miraculous that I can pick the white people out like that.
 
JoeMorgue said:
We don't have to bring in the official TumblrTwitter approved SJW "Victim Ranking Flowchart" here.

We don't need to determine who's "punching up" (whatever the hell that means) to just go "We've established enough that comparing black people to monkey/apes is bad to A) not have to do it again and B) not sit here and listen to people pretend they just didn't know that."
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Recognition of power and class relationships in society will make it clear.
 
It's a public school teacher. We don't have to do the whole "Check your privilege" routine on them to go "You did something wrong."

We are not limited to "The bog-standard Progressive response to racial incidents" and "Pretend nothing wrong happened."
 
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