[Continuation] House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2 - Page 81

Random · 12th January 2020, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Can the evidence be made totally public by means outside the Senate trial? The very fact that McConnell is desperate to hide this is because most of the Trump Ukraine fudge-up has already been published in excruciating detail in the media globally, and now he doesn't want the rest of it to come out.

By making the facts public, perhaps by "leaking" them, they would become "common knowledge", a premise. So the GOP Senators can hardly pretend they don't know about it. It would be like trying to deny that the sun rises in the East or that water is wet, because it hasn't been formally presented as trial evidence. They will look EXTREMELY foolish in public trying to do so. Alternatively, accepting that the evidence DOES exist and they know it means McConnell's cover-up has failed.

None of this "looking foolish" stuff matters. The GOP Senate knows all this and they don't care, it's a simple political calculation. Trump may be a corrupt, malevolent weasel, but he is still more popular than the GOP Senate overall, and vastly more popular amongst Republicans.

Right now, if a GOP Senator wants to stay in office, their only possible move is to prostrate themselves before Trump, climb on to his rickety bandwagon, then put their hands together and pray to God that Trump doesn't drive the whole lot of them off a cliff before November. There really is not other politically viable path for them.

So they will swear up and down that water is dry, the Sun is cold, and Trump is the most innocent, masculine, sanest man in the world, even though they know it is a lie.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 14th January 2020, 02:45 AM

Russia hacked Burisma last November, seemingly looking for dirt on the Bidens

Squeegee Beckenheim · 14th January 2020, 03:13 AM

Mitt Romney says he will vote in favour of hearing witnesses at trial, and specifies John Bolton

Squeegee Beckenheim · 14th January 2020, 03:16 AM

McConnell hit with official ethics complaint over his declared coordination with the White House re impeachment trial

Upchurch · 14th January 2020, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Russia hacked Burisma last November, seemingly looking for dirt on the Bidens

“Russia, if you’re listening...”

This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters.

Meadmaker · 14th January 2020, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

“Russia, if you’re listening...”

This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters.

Or Trump opponents.

thaiboxerken · 14th January 2020, 07:04 AM

But it could help sway more independents to be against Trump.

Meadmaker · 14th January 2020, 07:39 AM

Was there anything very important in the article? NYT has a paywall.

d4m10n · 14th January 2020, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Was there anything very important in the article? NYT has a paywall.

Basically we're looking at a sequel to 2016, targeting Obama's Veep instead of his former SecState.

Originally Posted by NYT

...Russian hackers from a military intelligence unit known formerly as the G.R.U., and to private researchers by the alias “Fancy Bear,” used so-called phishing emails that appear designed to steal usernames and passwords, according to Area 1, the Silicon Valley security firm that detected the hacking. In this instance, the hackers set up fake websites that mimicked sign-in pages of Burisma subsidiaries, and have been blasting Burisma employees with emails meant to look like they are coming from inside the company.

The hackers fooled some of them into handing over their login credentials, and managed to get inside one of Burisma’s servers, Area 1 said.

“The attacks were successful,” said Oren Falkowitz, a co-founder of Area 1, who previously served at the National Security Agency. Mr. Falkowitz’s firm maintains a network of sensors on web servers around the globe — many known to be used by state-sponsored hackers — which gives the firm a front-row seat to phishing attacks, and allows them to block attacks on their customers.

“The timing of the Russian campaign mirrors the G.R.U. hacks we saw in 2016 against the D.N.C. and John Podesta,” the Clinton campaign chairman, Mr. Falkowitz said. “Once again, they are stealing email credentials, in what we can only assume is a repeat of Russian interference in the last election.”

tl;dr - "But Burisma!" is the new "But her e-mails!"

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

“Russia, if you’re listening...”

This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters.

No, but the more these things keep dripping out, the more that changeable middle shifts toward democracy.

Meadmaker · 14th January 2020, 10:41 AM

I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents.

Upchurch · 14th January 2020, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents.

Okay. You said that once already.

What sort of reaction where you looking for?

Segnosaur · 14th January 2020, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

McConnell hit with official ethics complaint over his declared coordination with the White House re impeachment trial

Does anyone have any context here?

I do think Moscow Mitch is incredibly corrupt. But, I'm wondering just how common these complaints are (like for example, did groups on the political right submit official complaints over Democrats). And what is the ultimate effect? Do formal inquiries result? Or is the complaint the end of the story?

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents.

What about the people in the middle?

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Does anyone have any context here?

I do think Moscow Mitch is incredibly corrupt. But, I'm wondering just how common these complaints are (like for example, did groups on the political right submit official complaints over Democrats). And what is the ultimate effect? Do formal inquiries result? Or is the complaint the end of the story?

Formal complaints are relatively rare.

theprestige · 14th January 2020, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What about the people in the middle?

Probably not going to have an effect on them, either.

People in the middle fall into a few broad categories:

- Those who already decided he was an ass in 2016 and voted for him anyway.

- Those who already decided he was an ass in 2016 and thus didn't vote for him.

- Those who aren't paying attention or don't care if he's an ass, and voted however they were going to vote anyway.

I don't think this particular revelation is going to move the needle much one way or the other, for any of those groups.

I think if killing Soleimani had sparked a major escalation of the war with Iran, that might have made some people in the middle reevaluate their electoral priorities. But this kind of trickle, more of the same shenanigans they've already accounted for? I doubt it's going to make a difference in November.

But hope springs eternal! This may yet be The One Thing.

thaiboxerken · 14th January 2020, 01:00 PM

All of these things that aren't having an effect yet the GOP keeps shrinking over time as they keep happening........

Meadmaker · 14th January 2020, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

“Russia, if you’re listening...”

This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents.

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Okay. You said that once already.

What sort of reaction where you looking for?

???

Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists.

I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that.

Upchurch · 14th January 2020, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

???

You missed a one:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Originally Posted by Upchurch

“Russia, if you’re listening...”

This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters.

Or Trump opponents.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists.

I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that.

Russia is hacking emails to get dirt on Trump's political enemies. Sound familiar?

JoeMorgue · 14th January 2020, 01:58 PM

So apparently the Senate is going to get Articles of Impeachment from the House tomorrow and McConnell has said the trial is expected to start next Tuesday. There is still a small but vocal call to immediately dismiss the charges and other people saying the trial is expected to last "well beyond the State of the Union Address" in early February.

ponderingturtle · 14th January 2020, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

???

Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists.

I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that.

Plenty of good, they support the president after all. Just like all true Americans.

Meadmaker · 14th January 2020, 02:13 PM

Ok. I figured out the significance of the story. Or should I say "significance"?

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

???

Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists.

I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that.

Depends on your definition of significance. It certainly goes to support the case that Trump and Russia have no issues scratching each others backs. The more times things end with Russia for Trump it goes back to a central theme. You're right in that it might not do much now, but I have a feeling when the nominees are settled this type of stuff will get pounded hard to the electorate.

I would be shocked if, given Biden's latest commercial, whichever Dem takes the ticket isn't going to run Trump's Russia ties perpetually, obnoxiously even. I don't know if it will work, but if I were Trump I wouldn't be looking forward to the future.

Upchurch · 14th January 2020, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

So apparently the Senate is going to get Articles of Impeachment from the House tomorrow and McConnell has said the trial is expected to start next Tuesday. There is still a small but vocal call to immediately dismiss the charges and other people saying the trial is expected to last "well beyond the State of the Union Address" in early February.

I'd put my money on "Sweep under the rug as quickly as possible and claim it was the most fair trial that ever Justice'd. MAGA!". So, the first one.

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

I'd put my money on "Sweep under the rug as quickly as possible and claim it was the most fair trial that ever Justice'd. MAGA!". So, the first one.

I'd agree. We've heard this from these same Senators before. They talk like they're on the fence, but the moment it comes to voting time they lock step in with everyone else.

JoeMorgue · 14th January 2020, 02:25 PM

There is one tiny shred of hope I have, although I hardly consider it a likely outcome it does have a toe in the lukewarm waters of "at least possible."

This might be first time that the old school Republicans who I still think are varying degrees of untrusting of Trump will have any sort of real leverage over him of this kind.

If they think they can sell some sort of "Trump? Or we were against him the entire time we just played along because of... *mumble/reasons/mumble*" narrative we might, might see actual meaningful opposition against him.

Again not likely, but there is a sliver of possibility.

alfaniner · 14th January 2020, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

Depends on your definition of significance. It certainly goes to support the case that Trump and Russia have no issues scratching each others backs. The more times things end with Russia for Trump it goes back to a central theme. You're right in that it might not do much now, but I have a feeling when the nominees are settled this type of stuff will get pounded hard to the electorate.

I would be shocked if, given Biden's latest commercial, whichever Dem takes the ticket isn't going to run Trump's Russia ties perpetually, obnoxiously even. I don't know if it will work, but if I were Trump I wouldn't be looking forward to the future.

Once they get to the one-on-ones in the R vs. D debates, the gloves will be off. Back in 2016 there was still a curtain of ostensible respect and restraint that prevented going all-out. At that time even the news rarely if ever used the "L" word ("Liar"). Now it's nearly a daily occurence.

I'd like to see the Democratic nominee just list The PDJT's offenses in a segment. (It may take more...) But of course, that won't make a difference to his hardcore supporters. (I so hate that word "base".)

Segnosaur · 14th January 2020, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

I'd agree. We've heard this from these same Senators before. They talk like they're on the fence, but the moment it comes to voting time they lock step in with everyone else.

I think the proper term for this is Flake Phenomenon. (After Jeff Flake, the
republican senator who demanded an FBI investigation into "Drunky McRapeface" during his confirmation, and after an investigation where the FBI was not allowed to actually, you know, investigate, ended up voting to confirm anyways.)

Segnosaur · 14th January 2020, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

I would be shocked if, given Biden's latest commercial, whichever Dem takes the ticket isn't going to run Trump's Russia ties perpetually, obnoxiously even. I don't know if it will work, but if I were Trump I wouldn't be looking forward to the future.

If I were in charge of the Democratic party's advertising (or ran a Superpac) I would put an add with the Russian national anthem, interspersed by any news clips you can find of Trump praising Putin or Russia. No other dialog, just Trump's own words. Really push the connection, and in a way that can't be mistaken for "Oh, these are just made up stories by the Democrats".

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Probably not going to have an effect on them, either. [snip]

How does the POTUS keep shifting back and forth between Democrats and Republicans then?

How does the House and Senate do the same?

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

So apparently the Senate is going to get Articles of Impeachment from the House tomorrow and McConnell has said the trial is expected to start next Tuesday. There is still a small but vocal call to immediately dismiss the charges and other people saying the trial is expected to last "well beyond the State of the Union Address" in early February.

I wonder if the Democrats can get away with filibustering their presentation? Is there a way to cut it off? Will McConnell neglect to include a time limit in the trial rules? Will he try but lose the 51 votes he needs to pass the rules?

It should be interesting.

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

If I were in charge of the Democratic party's advertising (or ran a Superpac) I would put an add with the Russian national anthem, interspersed by any news clips you can find of Trump praising Putin or Russia. No other dialog, just Trump's own words. Really push the connection, and in a way that can't be mistaken for "Oh, these are just made up stories by the Democrats".

Good idea.

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

There is one tiny shred of hope I have, although I hardly consider it a likely outcome it does have a toe in the lukewarm waters of "at least possible."

This might be first time that the old school Republicans who I still think are varying degrees of untrusting of Trump will have any sort of real leverage over him of this kind.

If they think they can sell some sort of "Trump? Or we were against him the entire time we just played along because of... *mumble/reasons/mumble*" narrative we might, might see actual meaningful opposition against him.

Again not likely, but there is a sliver of possibility.

Last chance for a couple of them like Romney to get back at Trump.

Segnosaur · 14th January 2020, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Quote:

There is one tiny shred of hope I have, although I hardly consider it a likely outcome it does have a toe in the lukewarm waters of "at least possible."

This might be first time that the old school Republicans who I still think are varying degrees of untrusting of Trump will have any sort of real leverage over him of this kind.

Last chance for a couple of them like Romney to get back at Trump.

You also have Susan Collins, who once had a reputation for being a 'moderate' but who's reputation has been tarnished since she had Drunky McRapeface confirmed for the supreme court.

She may want to side with the Democrats on this as a way to try to re-build her image.

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 06:45 PM

Wow, the Lev releases are scary. They were apparently stalking Marie. This is scary stuff, on my phone so I don't have a link at the moment.

Skeptic Ginger · 14th January 2020, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

Wow, the Lev releases are scary. They were apparently stalking Marie. This is scary stuff, on my phone so I don't have a link at the moment.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/polit...nts/index.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/13/giul...peachment.html

http://www.startribune.com/democrats...ial/566986772/

This is going to turn out like the Russian interference, Trump throws all his flunkies under the bus and pretends he had nothing to do with anything.

Meadmaker · 14th January 2020, 07:30 PM

I want to amplify on what I said earlier, about the revelations about Russian Burisma hacking is insignificant. As played out here, it took me a while to even figure out why anyone thought they might be significant.

They hack everyone they can. That's what they do. Any information is good information. It's not like they were doing this at the behest of Donald Trump. (Or if they were, no one has been caught yet, and they've surely tried.)

So, why do they do it? I can't be certain, because I haven't been invited to the secret Kremlin meetings. It's too bad. I hear from very reliable sources that they provide some awesome hookers that will do anything at all. That comes from unimpeachable sources, but I digress. Here's why I think the Russians like Donald Trump and do things to help him.

They like him, because you hate him.

They aren't allies with Donald Trump. They just know that he is such a divisive character that with him in power, the country will be deeply divided. The Russians want that. On a related note, they probably like the fact that the presence of such a buffoon in the White House will only hurt America's standing in the world.

When they did their disinformation fake news social media blitz of 2016 I wonder if they even thought he would be elected, or if they just wanted to stir up division and animosity toward President Hillary Clinton. Was the idea that he could actually win something that was even in their vision, or were they as surprised as the rest of us? I don't know.

So, the fact that they are willing to dish dirt on Trump opponents probably means that they think having Trump in the White House is a good thing, for Russia. I suppose that's marginally significant, as long as people don't overplay it. Oops......too late.

Maybe there's something in those new documents. At the very least, Giulliani and his friends were really creepy. Maybe there's some there there, this time.

Norman Alexander · 14th January 2020, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I want to amplify on what I said earlier, about the revelations about Russian Burisma hacking is insignificant. As played out here, it took me a while to even figure out why anyone thought they might be significant.

They hack everyone they can. That's what they do. Any information is good information. It's not like they were doing this at the behest of Donald Trump. (Or if they were, no one has been caught yet, and they've surely tried.)

So, why do they do it? I can't be certain, because I haven't been invited to the secret Kremlin meetings. It's too bad. I hear from very reliable sources that they provide some awesome hookers that will do anything at all. That comes from unimpeachable sources, but I digress. Here's why I think the Russians like Donald Trump and do things to help him.

They like him, because you hate him.

They aren't allies with Donald Trump. They just know that he is such a divisive character that with him in power, the country will be deeply divided. The Russians want that. On a related note, they probably like the fact that the presence of such a buffoon in the White House will only hurt America's standing in the world.

When they did their disinformation fake news social media blitz of 2016 I wonder if they even thought he would be elected, or if they just wanted to stir up division and animosity toward President Hillary Clinton. Was the idea that he could actually win something that was even in their vision, or were they as surprised as the rest of us? I don't know.

So, the fact that they are willing to dish dirt on Trump opponents probably means that they think having Trump in the White House is a good thing, for Russia. I suppose that's marginally significant, as long as people don't overplay it. Oops......too late.

Maybe there's something in those new documents. At the very least, Giulliani and his friends were really creepy. Maybe there's some there there, this time.

You could have reduced that to one hyphenated word: ****-stirring.

And I agree. Russia want the USA and the West to be unstable. It makes Russia look a lot better globally when they all play Keystone Kops together with an orange buffoon leading them. So any disruption is good disruption. They just struck gold with a million shooting stars when their jerk-Hillary-around game made Trump the winner. He's a perfect national saboteur.

Stacyhs · 14th January 2020, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/polit...nts/index.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/13/giul...peachment.html

http://www.startribune.com/democrats...ial/566986772/

This is going to turn out like the Russian interference, Trump throws all his flunkies under the bus and pretends he had nothing to do with anything.

I've got my fingers crossed that they are the 'smoking gun' (or 'smocking' in Trump spelling). But I'm not getting my hopes up too much. Teflon Don is an apt name for the orange turd.

Stacyhs · 14th January 2020, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

You could have reduced that to one hyphenated word: ****-stirring.

And I agree. Russia want the USA and the West to be unstable. It makes Russia look a lot better globally when they all play Keystone Kops together with an orange buffoon leading them. So any disruption is good disruption. They just struck gold with a million shooting stars when their jerk-Hillary-around game made Trump the winner. He's a perfect national saboteur.

Agreed. It's not that they wanted TRUMP, they didn't want Hillary and they do want this country divided and in chaos. They've succeeded beautifully.

12th January 2020, 07:38 PM	#3201
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,098	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Can the evidence be made totally public by means outside the Senate trial? The very fact that McConnell is desperate to hide this is because most of the Trump Ukraine fudge-up has already been published in excruciating detail in the media globally, and now he doesn't want the rest of it to come out. By making the facts public, perhaps by "leaking" them, they would become "common knowledge", a premise. So the GOP Senators can hardly pretend they don't know about it. It would be like trying to deny that the sun rises in the East or that water is wet, because it hasn't been formally presented as trial evidence. They will look EXTREMELY foolish in public trying to do so. Alternatively, accepting that the evidence DOES exist and they know it means McConnell's cover-up has failed. None of this "looking foolish" stuff matters. The GOP Senate knows all this and they don't care, it's a simple political calculation. Trump may be a corrupt, malevolent weasel, but he is still more popular than the GOP Senate overall, and vastly more popular amongst Republicans. Right now, if a GOP Senator wants to stay in office, their only possible move is to prostrate themselves before Trump, climb on to his rickety bandwagon, then put their hands together and pray to God that Trump doesn't drive the whole lot of them off a cliff before November. There really is not other politically viable path for them. So they will swear up and down that water is dry, the Sun is cold, and Trump is the most innocent, masculine, sanest man in the world, even though they know it is a lie.
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,098	__________________ "...Am I actually watching Big Bird argue with the Egyptian God of the Dead? Is PBS sending some kind of weird religious message here?"

14th January 2020, 02:45 AM	#3202
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 26,611	Russia hacked Burisma last November, seemingly looking for dirt on the Bidens
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

14th January 2020, 03:13 AM	#3203
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 26,611	Mitt Romney says he will vote in favour of hearing witnesses at trial, and specifies John Bolton
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

14th January 2020, 03:16 AM	#3204
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 26,611	McConnell hit with official ethics complaint over his declared coordination with the White House re impeachment trial
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

14th January 2020, 04:32 AM	#3205
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,886	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Russia hacked Burisma last November, seemingly looking for dirt on the Bidens “Russia, if you’re listening...” This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

14th January 2020, 05:45 AM	#3206
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 20,011	Originally Posted by Upchurch “Russia, if you’re listening...” This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters. Or Trump opponents.

14th January 2020, 07:04 AM	#3207
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 30,412	But it could help sway more independents to be against Trump.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

14th January 2020, 07:39 AM	#3208
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 20,011	Was there anything very important in the article? NYT has a paywall.

14th January 2020, 08:35 AM	#3209
d4m10n Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 4,500	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Was there anything very important in the article? NYT has a paywall. Basically we're looking at a sequel to 2016, targeting Obama's Veep instead of his former SecState. Originally Posted by NYT ...Russian hackers from a military intelligence unit known formerly as the G.R.U., and to private researchers by the alias “Fancy Bear,” used so-called phishing emails that appear designed to steal usernames and passwords, according to Area 1, the Silicon Valley security firm that detected the hacking. In this instance, the hackers set up fake websites that mimicked sign-in pages of Burisma subsidiaries, and have been blasting Burisma employees with emails meant to look like they are coming from inside the company. The hackers fooled some of them into handing over their login credentials, and managed to get inside one of Burisma’s servers, Area 1 said. “The attacks were successful,” said Oren Falkowitz, a co-founder of Area 1, who previously served at the National Security Agency. Mr. Falkowitz’s firm maintains a network of sensors on web servers around the globe — many known to be used by state-sponsored hackers — which gives the firm a front-row seat to phishing attacks, and allows them to block attacks on their customers. “The timing of the Russian campaign mirrors the G.R.U. hacks we saw in 2016 against the D.N.C. and John Podesta,” the Clinton campaign chairman, Mr. Falkowitz said. “Once again, they are stealing email credentials, in what we can only assume is a repeat of Russian interference in the last election.” tl;dr - "But Burisma!" is the new "But her e-mails!"
	__________________ I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network! Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/

14th January 2020, 10:28 AM	#3210
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,163	Originally Posted by Upchurch “Russia, if you’re listening...” This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters. No, but the more these things keep dripping out, the more that changeable middle shifts toward democracy.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

14th January 2020, 10:41 AM	#3211
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 20,011	I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents.

14th January 2020, 11:24 AM	#3212
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,886	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents. Okay. You said that once already. What sort of reaction where you looking for?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

14th January 2020, 11:38 AM	#3213
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 14,455	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim McConnell hit with official ethics complaint over his declared coordination with the White House re impeachment trial Does anyone have any context here? I do think Moscow Mitch is incredibly corrupt. But, I'm wondering just how common these complaints are (like for example, did groups on the political right submit official complaints over Democrats). And what is the ultimate effect? Do formal inquiries result? Or is the complaint the end of the story?
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

14th January 2020, 12:31 PM	#3214
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,163	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents. What about the people in the middle?
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

14th January 2020, 12:32 PM	#3215
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,163	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Does anyone have any context here? I do think Moscow Mitch is incredibly corrupt. But, I'm wondering just how common these complaints are (like for example, did groups on the political right submit official complaints over Democrats). And what is the ultimate effect? Do formal inquiries result? Or is the complaint the end of the story? Formal complaints are relatively rare.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

14th January 2020, 12:56 PM	#3216
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,289	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger What about the people in the middle? Probably not going to have an effect on them, either. People in the middle fall into a few broad categories: - Those who already decided he was an ass in 2016 and voted for him anyway. - Those who already decided he was an ass in 2016 and thus didn't vote for him. - Those who aren't paying attention or don't care if he's an ass, and voted however they were going to vote anyway. I don't think this particular revelation is going to move the needle much one way or the other, for any of those groups. I think if killing Soleimani had sparked a major escalation of the war with Iran, that might have made some people in the middle reevaluate their electoral priorities. But this kind of trickle, more of the same shenanigans they've already accounted for? I doubt it's going to make a difference in November. But hope springs eternal! This may yet be The One Thing.
	Last edited by theprestige; 14th January 2020 at 01:00 PM.

14th January 2020, 01:00 PM	#3217
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 30,412	All of these things that aren't having an effect yet the GOP keeps shrinking over time as they keep happening........
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

14th January 2020, 01:27 PM	#3218
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 20,011	Originally Posted by Upchurch “Russia, if you’re listening...” This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters. Originally Posted by Meadmaker I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents. Originally Posted by Upchurch Okay. You said that once already. What sort of reaction where you looking for? ??? Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists. I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that.

14th January 2020, 01:53 PM	#3219
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,886	Originally Posted by Meadmaker ??? You missed a one: Originally Posted by Meadmaker Originally Posted by Upchurch “Russia, if you’re listening...” This will have zero impact or importance for Trump supporters. Or Trump opponents. Originally Posted by Meadmaker I can't see why it ought to have an effect on Trump supporters or Trump opponents. Originally Posted by Meadmaker Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists. I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that. Russia is hacking emails to get dirt on Trump's political enemies. Sound familiar?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

14th January 2020, 01:58 PM	#3220
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,137	So apparently the Senate is going to get Articles of Impeachment from the House tomorrow and McConnell has said the trial is expected to start next Tuesday. There is still a small but vocal call to immediately dismiss the charges and other people saying the trial is expected to last "well beyond the State of the Union Address" in early February.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

14th January 2020, 01:59 PM	#3221
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 48,467	Originally Posted by Meadmaker ??? Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists. I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that. Plenty of good, they support the president after all. Just like all true Americans.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

14th January 2020, 02:13 PM	#3222
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 20,011	Ok. I figured out the significance of the story. Or should I say "significance"?

14th January 2020, 02:17 PM	#3223
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,480	Originally Posted by Meadmaker ??? Well, at any rate, I don't see any significance to the story at all, except maybe to cyber security specialists. I suppose it serves as a reminder that Russia is up to no good, but surely most people already knew that. Depends on your definition of significance. It certainly goes to support the case that Trump and Russia have no issues scratching each others backs. The more times things end with Russia for Trump it goes back to a central theme. You're right in that it might not do much now, but I have a feeling when the nominees are settled this type of stuff will get pounded hard to the electorate. I would be shocked if, given Biden's latest commercial, whichever Dem takes the ticket isn't going to run Trump's Russia ties perpetually, obnoxiously even. I don't know if it will work, but if I were Trump I wouldn't be looking forward to the future.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

14th January 2020, 02:21 PM	#3224
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,886	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue So apparently the Senate is going to get Articles of Impeachment from the House tomorrow and McConnell has said the trial is expected to start next Tuesday. There is still a small but vocal call to immediately dismiss the charges and other people saying the trial is expected to last "well beyond the State of the Union Address" in early February. I'd put my money on "Sweep under the rug as quickly as possible and claim it was the most fair trial that ever Justice'd. MAGA!". So, the first one.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

14th January 2020, 02:24 PM	#3225
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,480	Originally Posted by Upchurch I'd put my money on "Sweep under the rug as quickly as possible and claim it was the most fair trial that ever Justice'd. MAGA!". So, the first one. I'd agree. We've heard this from these same Senators before. They talk like they're on the fence, but the moment it comes to voting time they lock step in with everyone else.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

14th January 2020, 02:25 PM	#3226
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22,137	There is one tiny shred of hope I have, although I hardly consider it a likely outcome it does have a toe in the lukewarm waters of "at least possible." This might be first time that the old school Republicans who I still think are varying degrees of untrusting of Trump will have any sort of real leverage over him of this kind. If they think they can sell some sort of "Trump? Or we were against him the entire time we just played along because of... mumble/reasons/mumble" narrative we might, might see actual meaningful opposition against him. Again not likely, but there is a sliver of possibility.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

14th January 2020, 02:34 PM	#3227
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 21,320	Originally Posted by plague311 Depends on your definition of significance. It certainly goes to support the case that Trump and Russia have no issues scratching each others backs. The more times things end with Russia for Trump it goes back to a central theme. You're right in that it might not do much now, but I have a feeling when the nominees are settled this type of stuff will get pounded hard to the electorate. I would be shocked if, given Biden's latest commercial, whichever Dem takes the ticket isn't going to run Trump's Russia ties perpetually, obnoxiously even. I don't know if it will work, but if I were Trump I wouldn't be looking forward to the future. Once they get to the one-on-ones in the R vs. D debates, the gloves will be off. Back in 2016 there was still a curtain of ostensible respect and restraint that prevented going all-out. At that time even the news rarely if ever used the "L" word ("Liar"). Now it's nearly a daily occurence. I'd like to see the Democratic nominee just list The PDJT's offenses in a segment. (It may take more...) But of course, that won't make a difference to his hardcore supporters. (I so hate that word "base".)
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

14th January 2020, 02:48 PM	#3228
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 14,455	Originally Posted by plague311 I'd agree. We've heard this from these same Senators before. They talk like they're on the fence, but the moment it comes to voting time they lock step in with everyone else. I think the proper term for this is Flake Phenomenon. (After Jeff Flake, the republican senator who demanded an FBI investigation into "Drunky McRapeface" during his confirmation, and after an investigation where the FBI was not allowed to actually, you know, investigate, ended up voting to confirm anyways.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

14th January 2020, 02:53 PM	#3229
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 14,455	Originally Posted by plague311 I would be shocked if, given Biden's latest commercial, whichever Dem takes the ticket isn't going to run Trump's Russia ties perpetually, obnoxiously even. I don't know if it will work, but if I were Trump I wouldn't be looking forward to the future. If I were in charge of the Democratic party's advertising (or ran a Superpac) I would put an add with the Russian national anthem, interspersed by any news clips you can find of Trump praising Putin or Russia. No other dialog, just Trump's own words. Really push the connection, and in a way that can't be mistaken for "Oh, these are just made up stories by the Democrats".
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

14th January 2020, 03:03 PM	#3230
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,163	Originally Posted by theprestige Probably not going to have an effect on them, either. [snip] How does the POTUS keep shifting back and forth between Democrats and Republicans then? How does the House and Senate do the same?
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

14th January 2020, 03:07 PM	#3231
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,163	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue So apparently the Senate is going to get Articles of Impeachment from the House tomorrow and McConnell has said the trial is expected to start next Tuesday. There is still a small but vocal call to immediately dismiss the charges and other people saying the trial is expected to last "well beyond the State of the Union Address" in early February. I wonder if the Democrats can get away with filibustering their presentation? Is there a way to cut it off? Will McConnell neglect to include a time limit in the trial rules? Will he try but lose the 51 votes he needs to pass the rules? It should be interesting.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

14th January 2020, 03:08 PM	#3232
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,163	Originally Posted by Segnosaur If I were in charge of the Democratic party's advertising (or ran a Superpac) I would put an add with the Russian national anthem, interspersed by any news clips you can find of Trump praising Putin or Russia. No other dialog, just Trump's own words. Really push the connection, and in a way that can't be mistaken for "Oh, these are just made up stories by the Democrats". Good idea.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

14th January 2020, 03:10 PM	#3233
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78,163	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue There is one tiny shred of hope I have, although I hardly consider it a likely outcome it does have a toe in the lukewarm waters of "at least possible." This might be first time that the old school Republicans who I still think are varying degrees of untrusting of Trump will have any sort of real leverage over him of this kind. If they think they can sell some sort of "Trump? Or we were against him the entire time we just played along because of... mumble/reasons/mumble" narrative we might, might see actual meaningful opposition against him. Again not likely, but there is a sliver of possibility. Last chance for a couple of them like Romney to get back at Trump.
	__________________ TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink? Space Force. Because feeding poor people is socialism.

14th January 2020, 03:35 PM	#3234
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 14,455	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Quote: There is one tiny shred of hope I have, although I hardly consider it a likely outcome it does have a toe in the lukewarm waters of "at least possible." This might be first time that the old school Republicans who I still think are varying degrees of untrusting of Trump will have any sort of real leverage over him of this kind. Last chance for a couple of them like Romney to get back at Trump. You also have Susan Collins, who once had a reputation for being a 'moderate' but who's reputation has been tarnished since she had Drunky McRapeface confirmed for the supreme court. She may want to side with the Democrats on this as a way to try to re-build her image.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

14th January 2020, 06:45 PM	#3235
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,480	Wow, the Lev releases are scary. They were apparently stalking Marie. This is scary stuff, on my phone so I don't have a link at the moment.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss