Fool survives for three weeks in Alaskan woods after burning tarp-dwelling down - Page 2

dudalb · 13th January 2020, 02:30 PM

Have to admit when I saw this story my mind fled to a famous Jack London short story about survival in the Alaskan Wilderness called 'To Build A Fire".
It does not have a happy ending...great story though.

theprestige · 13th January 2020, 02:39 PM

Puts me in the mind of The Cremation of Sam McGee.

There are strange things done in the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold;
The Arctic trails have their secret tales
That would make your blood run cold;
The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,
But the queerest they ever did see
Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge
I cremated Sam McGee.

Checkmite · 13th January 2020, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

In stories like this I look for the second big mistake. All survivors make the first one, as this man certainly did. But after that, he chose the safer option, to shelter in place with his remaining resources, which he carried out successfully. That choice required awareness and patience. Packing out on foot right away could have saved him weeks of hunger and discomfort, but it would been far more risky, because of the winter conditions and because he apparently didn't have much warm clothing left after the fire. He may not have had snowshoes or skis that survived the fire. Some have read his concerns about finding a safe way out as him not knowing which way to go, but it sounds to me more like not risking unfamiliar conditions (a trail or network of trails that he hadn't traversed in winter before because that would be unsafe) and inadequate trail gear.

I frankly think you're giving him far more credit than is due with this assessment. You characterize the things he did after the fire - namely his sheltering in-place with his remaining resources - as a choice he made, and that he could have chosen to do something different instead, and the fact that he did not was the result of a competent risk assessment on his part.

I can't really agree with that. He didn't merely have "inadequate" trail gear, he had absolutely no trail gear. He had boots but no socks. He had a set of scavenged overalls, but no coat. His food was all cans and jars - heavy and impractical to carry at any rate, but a moot issue since he had no backpack. "Walking out" wasn't an option that he carefully considered and thoughtfully decided against, it was impossible.

In fact there was no "option"; there was nothing left to do at all in the wake of the disaster except stay as close to the stove as possible and eat the remaining food until it ran out, and that's what he did until Lady Luck sent a rescue helicopter his way.

plague311 · 13th January 2020, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I frankly think you're giving him far more credit than is due with this assessment. You characterize the things he did after the fire - namely his sheltering in-place with his remaining resources - as a choice he made, and that he could have chosen to do something different instead, and the fact that he did not was the result of a competent risk assessment on his part.

I can't really agree with that. He didn't merely have "inadequate" trail gear, he had absolutely no trail gear. He had boots but no socks. He had a set of scavenged overalls, but no coat. His food was all cans and jars - heavy and impractical to carry at any rate, but a moot issue since he had no backpack. "Walking out" wasn't an option that he carefully considered and thoughtfully decided against, it was impossible.

In fact there was no "option"; there was nothing left to do at all in the wake of the disaster except stay as close to the stove as possible and eat the remaining food until it ran out, and that's what he did until Lady Luck sent a rescue helicopter his way.

That's kind of what I was thinking. The article I just read said he had no survival training or anything like that. It was just a series of things working out after the fire.

Roboramma · 13th January 2020, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

In fact there was no "option"; there was nothing left to do at all in the wake of the disaster except stay as close to the stove as possible and eat the remaining food until it ran out, and that's what he did until Lady Luck sent a rescue helicopter his way.

Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you.

The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck.

Elagabalus · 14th January 2020, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you.

The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck.

And setting his tarp home on fire was totally like a "yeah, I meant to do that moment".

Roboramma · 14th January 2020, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

And setting his tarp home on fire was totally like a "yeah, I meant to do that moment".

No, that was stupid. But that doesn't mean that the rescue was reliant on luck.

Elagabalus · 14th January 2020, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

No, that was stupid. But that doesn't mean that the rescue was reliant on luck.

And the phone with the dodgy battery?

Roboramma · 14th January 2020, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

And the phone with the dodgy battery?

Are you disagreeing with anything I said? Do you think his rescue was reliant on luck?

rockinkt · 14th January 2020, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you.

The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck.

Ummmm...No.
The man was incompetent, stupid, and lucky.

1) He obviously knew nothing about making a proper shelter with an adequate chimney system which was high enough above the roof line so sparks on the roof would not be problem.
2) He did not make an emergency cache with food, clothing, emergency gear, that anyone with half a brain does when living remotely.
3) He did not practice the basic severe cold habit of banking your fire for short term forays out of your camp; Or, letting your fire go out and then pre-stacking your kindling and wood in your fireplace/stove so it only takes one match to get it to start on your return from longer term absences.

As far as your assertion that he had some sort of "check-in" plan with somebody - there is no evidence of that at all. According to the OP - he only called people on a sporadic basis and all he could was hope that someone would miss him and call the authorities.

"Steele had a "crappy" phone that he'd been using to check in with friends and family, but authorities said it was lost in the fire. So he hoped someone would call for a welfare check after they hadn't heard from him. If someone hadn't come by Day 35, he'd set out."

Tolls · 14th January 2020, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I thought is was defined by the siding also being the support structure. The corrugated siding usually is self supporting, IIIRC.

That's a Nissen hut.

The difference between them is the Quonset has a frame that the sidings are attached to.

Looking around it looks to me like non-corrugated huts are still considered Quonset huts, at least people are selling them as such. I think the original Quonset's were corrugated iron, and that may well have been the original design spec, but I expect the naming has morphed to include other materials.

ponderingturtle · 14th January 2020, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Have to admit when I saw this story my mind fled to a famous Jack London short story about survival in the Alaskan Wilderness called 'To Build A Fire".
It does not have a happy ending...great story though.

Yes it does, the dog lives ergo happy ending.

ponderingturtle · 14th January 2020, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

And the phone with the dodgy battery?

So he might have gotten a check on because his phone died instead of burned in a fire. Not optimal but better than no reason to check on him till spring.

theprestige · 14th January 2020, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

That's a Nissen hut.

The difference between them is the Quonset has a frame that the sidings are attached to.

According to Wikipedia, Nissen huts also have a supporting frame.

Ian Osborne · 14th January 2020, 04:42 AM

As he was effectively camping and using a wood-burning stove, wouldn't it have been a usual precaution to have a fire extinguisher with him?

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

As he was effectively camping and using a wood-burning stove, wouldn't it have been a usual precaution to have a fire extinguisher with him?

It sounds like he moved in with enough time, I would have just made a sheet metal roof.

theprestige · 14th January 2020, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

It sounds like he moved in with enough time, I would have just made a sheet metal roof.

Made it out of what?

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Made it out of what?

They don't have places to get ******* sheet metal in all of Alaska? They appear to have gotten some pieces there before as there was some at the site. He had made this plan, bought the land from a Vietnam Vet, and made it a point to move thousands of miles to go there. Some are claiming he was a pretty good outdoorsman, or survivalist. Outdoorsman\survivalists don't make sure everything is fully prepared before moving into a remote part of Alaska? Didn't someone earlier in the thread say he got stuff airdropped to him?

Tolls · 14th January 2020, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

According to Wikipedia, Nissen huts also have a supporting frame.

Hmm.
Good point.
Oh well...

Thermal · 14th January 2020, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

As he was effectively camping and using a wood-burning stove, wouldn't it have been a usual precaution to have a fire extinguisher with him?

The article and statement don't list his full cache of provisions. They are rather short. I think most fire extinguishers would freeze solid in those temperatures unless kept near the fire, where it would have likely been consumed before he could get to it anyway.

The police statement says he was also dodging 500 rounds of shotgun/rifle ammo that were also burning.

Ridicule all you guys like, but he was no fool. He may be a little whacky about living on very little, but that is different thing. The easiest thing in the world is to Monday Morning Quarterback how to have prevented it.

Think about it. Absolutely anything can be corrected in hindsight. He tried to get a fire going quicker and fed it with cardboard, likely because it had gotten damned cold. He knew that was not copasetic and was a lapse of judgement, but his rig had also been functioning without problems for months. It's not like he floundered immediately. I would venture that most posters here would be dead within a few hours after the fire. Surviving in sub zero temps with salvaged provisions is no joke. Even making a snow cave shelter that doesn't collapse on you takes some skill.

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Think about it. Absolutely anything can be corrected in hindsight. He tried to get a fire going quicker and fed it with cardboard, likely because it had gotten damned cold. He knew that was not copasetic and was a lapse of judgement, but his rig had also been functioning without problems for months. It's not like he floundered immediately. I would venture that most posters here would be dead within a few hours after the fire. Surviving in sub zero temps with salvaged provisions is no joke. Even making a snow cave shelter that doesn't collapse on you takes some skill.

That still doesn't change the fact that it was mostly luck, and not skill, that saved him. It also doesn't change the fact that there were a myriad of things he could have done to prevent this from happening. My father says all the time "A good hunter prevents accidents, he doesn't react to them." He chose not to do that. No one here is wishing he was dead, but he's a far cry from some top tier survivalist and his ignorance led to the death of a dog. That's the part that bugs me the most. I get he's suffering too, but his dog had to pay the price.

ETA: He also wasn't living on limited resources, per himself:

Quote:

He had a two-year supply of food but had stored it next to flammable oils and greases and the bullets. A propane tank also was there. He said he couldn't extinguish the fire.

...not the best plan.

Thermal · 14th January 2020, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

That still doesn't change the fact that it was mostly luck, and not skill, that saved him. It also doesn't change the fact that there were a myriad of things he could have done to prevent this from happening. My father says all the time "A good hunter prevents accidents, he doesn't react to them." He chose not to do that. No one here is wishing he was dead, but he's a far cry from some top tier survivalist and his ignorance led to the death of a dog. That's the part that bugs me the most. I get he's suffering too, but his dog had to pay the price.

ETA: He also wasn't living on limited resources, per himself:

...not the best plan.

Agreed for the most part, but I would assume he had prevented hundreds of accidents over the months. I assume this because he is alive.

From what I gather, he spread supplies out in his camp. It's true that he could have spread them further, and sprawled out for acres, but for practical purposes he had to keep things fairly tight. Not sure if this camp was intended to be permanent, or was a work in progress, either.

eta: cans of food in a tarp shelter is surely 'limited resources', no? I'm not saying he was living off the land entirely. But 'limited' is surely fair.

ponderingturtle · 14th January 2020, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I think most fire extinguishers would freeze solid in those temperatures unless kept near the fire, where it would have likely been consumed before he could get to it anyway.

Not at all, the most common fire extinguisher is a dry powder so nothing to freeze.

Thermal · 14th January 2020, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Not at all, the most common fire extinguisher is a dry powder so nothing to freeze.

I was going by memory on that. I recall a household extinguisher, ABC IIRC, that was exposed to temps in the teens and burst. I assumed whatever was providing compression was freeze-expansion sensitive.

ponderingturtle · 14th January 2020, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I was going by memory on that. I recall a household extinguisher, ABC IIRC, that was exposed to temps in the teens and burst. I assumed whatever was providing compression was freeze-expansion sensitive.

They are generally just compressed air not anything that would be effected by such moderate temperatures.

Cold effecting the plastic pressure vessel they used to be made of seems more likely than the contents being adversely effected. See the huge recall and reworking of fire extingushers a couple of years ago.

Thermal · 14th January 2020, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

And the phone with the dodgy battery?

It was a new phone, and I would have to assume a Sonim or similar rated to work in extreme temps, because it had limped along till burning in the fire.

What he said was that this new phone wouldn't keep a charge, likely due to severe cold. Assuming lithium-ion battery, that is a real problem. They do get weak in the cold.

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Agreed for the most part, but I would assume he had prevented hundreds of accidents over the months. I assume this because he is alive.

Maybe, but that's something that can be said about every human that walks the Earth. It doesn't really do anything to support him being a well rounded survivalist. Just a regular guy.

Originally Posted by Thermal

From what I gather, he spread supplies out in his camp. It's true that he could have spread them further, and sprawled out for acres, but for practical purposes he had to keep things fairly tight. Not sure if this camp was intended to be permanent, or was a work in progress, either.

It could have been. I didn't get the impression he spread things out around his camp since he had to run in and all he did was grab everything off of his bed. Then he grabbed some canned foods. He didn't have anything outside from what I've read. Everything he lived on came from the house. I can tell you that I would certainly be dead from the fire because I have a serious love for my dogs. I would have burned up trying to carry him out, but I have tiny dogs. Not a medium sized one like this guy had, so I get it.

Even if it wasn't meant to be permanent or was a work in progress seems a little irrelevant. He recently bought it from someone, and knew winter was coming. A good outdoorsman would make having a solid, usable structure that would last through one of the harshest winters, or have a backup method available away from his abode, a distinct and immediate priority. A tent, shelter, supplies, etc. You always have a backup.

In North Dakota you would get laughed out of a room if you admitted to not having a full backup supply kit in your car should anything happen, and we aren't in the middle of nowhere. In all of my cars we have jumper cables, sweat pants\shirts, blankets, and dry consumables in the winter. It's just SOP.

Originally Posted by Thermal

eta: cans of food in a tarp shelter is surely 'limited resources', no? I'm not saying he was living off the land entirely. But 'limited' is surely fair.

It's probably semantic, I wouldn't call 2 years worth of food limited though. If his place hadn't burned down I would say that he was extremely well stocked as far as food goes.

Thermal · 14th January 2020, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

Maybe, but that's something that can be said about every human that walks the Earth. It doesn't really do anything to support him being a well rounded survivalist. Just a regular guy.

Well, a regular guy has the benefits of living in civilization. Utilities, other people and all. For him, a trip to move his bowels could be a bit more dangerous than for you or I.

Quote:

It could have been. I didn't get the impression he spread things out around his camp since he had to run in and all he did was grab everything off of his bed. Then he grabbed some canned foods. He didn't have anything outside from what I've read. Everything he lived on came from the house. I can tell you that I would certainly be dead from the fire because I have a serious love for my dogs. I would have burned up trying to carry him out, but I have tiny dogs. Not a medium sized one like this guy had, so I get it.

If you look at the pics, he had a camp going, not just the quonset thing. Even storage for that much food took some space. He also thought his dog was already out, but agreed, that was damned horrible.

Quote:

Even if it wasn't meant to be permanent or was a work in progress seems a little irrelevant. He recently bought it from someone, and knew winter was coming. A good outdoorsman would make having a solid, usable structure that would last through one of the harshest winters, or have a backup method available away from his abode, a distinct and immediate priority. A tent, shelter, supplies, etc. You always have a backup.

In North Dakota you would get laughed out of a room if you admitted to not having a full backup supply kit in your car should anything happen, and we aren't in the middle of nowhere. In all of my cars we have jumper cables, sweat pants\shirts, blankets, and dry consumables in the winter. It's just SOP.

It's probably semantic, I wouldn't call 2 years worth of food limited though. If his place hadn't burned down I would say that he was extremely well stocked as far as food goes.

I'm wondering a little about the timeline. He said he started the fire with some cardboard, but woke in the middle of the night to it just beginning to blaze. The cardboard should have burned up in seconds. Why did the thing not burn till hours later?

Eta: by limited resources, I meant more than just food. I mean all the stuff we don't even think about that keeps us alive.

plague311 · 14th January 2020, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Well, a regular guy has the benefits of living in civilization. Utilities, other people and all. For him, a trip to move his bowels could be a bit more dangerous than for you or I.

To me, they're just different dangers. Murderers, cars running you over, car accidents, home invasions, etc. None of which are fears of his at all.

Originally Posted by Thermal

If you look at the pics, he had a camp going, not just the quonset thing. Even storage for that much food took some space. He also thought his dog was already out, but agreed, that was damned horrible.

The food was all stored inside though. He said he grabbed the food he could from inside and that's what he lived on. If I remember right he mentioned saving the burned plastic food until last.

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm wondering a little about the timeline. He said he started the fire with some cardboard, but woke in the middle of the night to it just beginning to blaze. The cardboard should have burned up in seconds. Why did the thing not burn till hours later?

Without seeing the previous home it all seems random to me. I don't really understand what caught on fire. Plastic\tarp isn't really all that flammable enough to start from a small spark I don't think, and he said he thinks it started from a tarp. If he started the fire, stripped to his long johns, climbed into bed, and then woke up to the roof already beyond his ability to put out, then I truly believe something else had to fuel this fire. I just haven't mentioned it because I have absolutely nothing to back it up. I don't know how it takes that long (at the very least 15-20) to start a tarp on fire and have it burn through a quonset. I've heard of trailer homes burning down in less time.

Originally Posted by Thermal

Eta: by limited resources, I meant more than just food. I mean all the stuff we don't even think about that keeps us alive.

Ah. I don't have much to add there.

Checkmite · 14th January 2020, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you.

The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck.

But I'm not willing to call it a precaution he took either. In his post-rescue interviews he used language that very clearly conveyed that he had hoped his relatives would set "something" in motion to try and found out what happened to him after communication ended; not that he confidently assumed they would, or that they were instructed to do so after a certain amount of time. In fact, I would use exactly these circumstances to contradict you: if he had been responsible, he would have positively set an arrangement that after exactly this much time incommunicado they should contact so-and-so. And certainly in less time than three weeks! But clearly no such arrangement existed, forcing him to "hope". According to the release, he didn't even figure on them calling rescue authorities as such - he supposed they would have contacted his air supply outfit.

He is lucky that they only waited 3 weeks. If they waited much longer, he might have run out of food, and if that happened he would be dead.

plague311 · 15th January 2020, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

But I'm not willing to call it a precaution he took either. In his post-rescue interviews he used language that very clearly conveyed that he had hoped his relatives would set "something" in motion to try and found out what happened to him after communication ended; not that he confidently assumed they would, or that they were instructed to do so after a certain amount of time. In fact, I would use exactly these circumstances to contradict you: if he had been responsible, he would have positively set an arrangement that after exactly this much time incommunicado they should contact so-and-so. And certainly in less time than three weeks! But clearly no such arrangement existed, forcing him to "hope". According to the release, he didn't even figure on them calling rescue authorities as such - he supposed they would have contacted his air supply outfit.

He is lucky that they only waited 3 weeks. If they waited much longer, he might have run out of food, and if that happened he would be dead.

Just to add to that. He said that the meal before his last night was the worst he had because it was down to the burnt foods. He also said he started thinking about what he would do after 35 because he thought someone lived within 5 miles of him.

There was absolutely nothing certain about anything he said.

Myriad · 15th January 2020, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I'm wondering a little about the timeline. He said he started the fire with some cardboard, but woke in the middle of the night to it just beginning to blaze. The cardboard should have burned up in seconds. Why did the thing not burn till hours later?

Smoldering. I have a personal anecdote that might help illustrate.

Around 2002, after a flood put our furnace out of commission, while waiting for repairs, my wife and I moved our mattress downstairs to the first floor, so we could sleep near our wood stove. The wood stove was more than adequate to heat the first floor on cold autumn nights. One night, after carefully emptying the old cold ashes from the night before, bagging them, and putting them out of the way in a plastic wastebasket, we lit the stove and went to sleep for the night.

I trust everyone immediately recognizes the foolish and potentially fatal mistake we made.

Hours later, in the middle of the night, I woke up. Because it wasn't my regular bed in regular surroundings, instead of just rolling over and going back to sleep, I opened my eyes and looked around. Across the room, I saw a faint orange glow. An ember from the "cold" ashes had smoldered through the trash bag and through the side of the wastebasket. It was the edges of the quarter-size hole in the side of the wastebasket that were glowing. Easily put out with a few ounces of water, but minutes or hours later, who knows? It might have gone out by itself. It might have continued to smolder until, when we got up in the morning, there was nothing there except a pile of old ashes mixed with residual melted plastic and a scorch mark on the wood floor. Or it might have flamed up and killed us in our sleep.

Dr. Keith · 15th January 2020, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tolls

That's a Nissen hut.

The difference between them is the Quonset has a frame that the sidings are attached to.

Damn. Don't tell theprestige, I hate being wrong.

Quote:

Looking around it looks to me like non-corrugated huts are still considered Quonset huts, at least people are selling them as such. I think the original Quonset's were corrugated iron, and that may well have been the original design spec, but I expect the naming has morphed to include other materials.

Fine, I'll put my narrow definition up on the shelf with my assertion that "irregardless" is not a word. I can move on, really. I rarely sip scotch while perusing that shelf in the evening. Rarely.

Checkmite · 15th January 2020, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Damn. Don't tell theprestige, I hate being wrong.

Fine, I'll put my narrow definition up on the shelf with my assertion that "irregardless" is not a word. I can move on, really. I rarely sip scotch while perusing that shelf in the evening. Rarely.

Okay then, next debate: was the roof of this guy's hut flammable, or was it inflammable?

CORed · 15th January 2020, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I misread "fool" as "food". He might as well have been.
There seems to be something about that state that attracts dingbats, and reality TV producers to film them.

Given the number of bears in Alaska, he's pretty lucky he didn't become food for one of them.

theprestige · 16th January 2020, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by CORed

Given the number of bears in Alaska, he's pretty lucky he didn't become food for one of them.

Given the number of square miles in Alaska... hrm.

There's about 134,700 bears of all species in Alaska

There's about 663,300 square miles in Alaska.

I'm having trouble braining this morning, and can't figure out if that's five bears per square mile, or one bear every five square miles. Probably one bear every five square miles.

A radius of five miles, originating at his campsite, sweeps out an area of almost 80 square miles. So that would be about... sixteen bears within say a ten mile walk of his camp?

Assuming an even distribution of spherical bears across a frictionless Alaska in a vacuum, of course.

TragicMonkey · 16th January 2020, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Given the number of square miles in Alaska... hrm.

There's about 134,700 bears of all species in Alaska

There's about 663,300 square miles in Alaska.

I'm having trouble braining this morning, and can't figure out if that's five bears per square mile, or one bear every five square miles. Probably one bear every five square miles.

A radius of five miles, originating at his campsite, sweeps out an area of almost 80 square miles. So that would be about... sixteen bears within say a ten mile walk of his camp?

Assuming an even distribution of spherical bears across a frictionless Alaska in a vacuum, of course.

You're omitting a Basic Bear Fact: in the wild, bears stack themselves vertically. So while there may only be one instance of bear presence in a twenty mile radius of any given point in Alaska, that instance will be comprised of an average of between eight and forty bears. The topmost bear is the lookout.

Thermal · 16th January 2020, 11:33 AM

I thought topmost bear held the flashlight?

Also, are spherical bears in a vacuum a new Dyson product?

TragicMonkey · 16th January 2020, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I thought topmost bear held the flashlight?

Also, are spherical bears in a vacuum a new Dyson product?

A Dyson Sphere full of bears? So that's what the object detected in Ursa Major is!

theprestige · 16th January 2020, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

You're omitting a Basic Bear Fact: in the wild, bears stack themselves vertically. So while there may only be one instance of bear presence in a twenty mile radius of any given point in Alaska, that instance will be comprised of an average of between eight and forty bears. The topmost bear is the lookout.

Originally Posted by Thermal

I thought topmost bear held the flashlight?

Also, are spherical bears in a vacuum a new Dyson product?

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

A Dyson Sphere full of bears? So that's what the object detected in Ursa Major is!

I... There's... This thread is delivering too much good stuff too fast. Now I've got something in my eye.

It's probably a bear.

13th January 2020, 02:30 PM	#41
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 46,544	Have to admit when I saw this story my mind fled to a famous Jack London short story about survival in the Alaskan Wilderness called 'To Build A Fire". It does not have a happy ending...great story though.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2020, 02:47 PM	#43
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 24,683	Originally Posted by Myriad In stories like this I look for the second big mistake. All survivors make the first one, as this man certainly did. But after that, he chose the safer option, to shelter in place with his remaining resources, which he carried out successfully. That choice required awareness and patience. Packing out on foot right away could have saved him weeks of hunger and discomfort, but it would been far more risky, because of the winter conditions and because he apparently didn't have much warm clothing left after the fire. He may not have had snowshoes or skis that survived the fire. Some have read his concerns about finding a safe way out as him not knowing which way to go, but it sounds to me more like not risking unfamiliar conditions (a trail or network of trails that he hadn't traversed in winter before because that would be unsafe) and inadequate trail gear. I frankly think you're giving him far more credit than is due with this assessment. You characterize the things he did after the fire - namely his sheltering in-place with his remaining resources - as a choice he made, and that he could have chosen to do something different instead, and the fact that he did not was the result of a competent risk assessment on his part. I can't really agree with that. He didn't merely have "inadequate" trail gear, he had absolutely no trail gear. He had boots but no socks. He had a set of scavenged overalls, but no coat. His food was all cans and jars - heavy and impractical to carry at any rate, but a moot issue since he had no backpack. "Walking out" wasn't an option that he carefully considered and thoughtfully decided against, it was impossible. In fact there was no "option"; there was nothing left to do at all in the wake of the disaster except stay as close to the stove as possible and eat the remaining food until it ran out, and that's what he did until Lady Luck sent a rescue helicopter his way.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 Last edited by Checkmite; 13th January 2020 at 02:49 PM.

13th January 2020, 03:03 PM	#44
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,541	Originally Posted by Checkmite I frankly think you're giving him far more credit than is due with this assessment. You characterize the things he did after the fire - namely his sheltering in-place with his remaining resources - as a choice he made, and that he could have chosen to do something different instead, and the fact that he did not was the result of a competent risk assessment on his part. I can't really agree with that. He didn't merely have "inadequate" trail gear, he had absolutely no trail gear. He had boots but no socks. He had a set of scavenged overalls, but no coat. His food was all cans and jars - heavy and impractical to carry at any rate, but a moot issue since he had no backpack. "Walking out" wasn't an option that he carefully considered and thoughtfully decided against, it was impossible. In fact there was no "option"; there was nothing left to do at all in the wake of the disaster except stay as close to the stove as possible and eat the remaining food until it ran out, and that's what he did until Lady Luck sent a rescue helicopter his way. That's kind of what I was thinking. The article I just read said he had no survival training or anything like that. It was just a series of things working out after the fire.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

13th January 2020, 06:54 PM	#45
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 13,309	Originally Posted by Checkmite In fact there was no "option"; there was nothing left to do at all in the wake of the disaster except stay as close to the stove as possible and eat the remaining food until it ran out, and that's what he did until Lady Luck sent a rescue helicopter his way. Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you. The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

14th January 2020, 12:28 AM	#46
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by Roboramma Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you. The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck. And setting his tarp home on fire was totally like a "yeah, I meant to do that moment".
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5,229

13th January 2020, 02:39 PM	#42
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,359	Puts me in the mind of The Cremation of Sam McGee. There are strange things done in the midnight sun By the men who moil for gold; The Arctic trails have their secret tales That would make your blood run cold; The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, But the queerest they ever did see Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge I cremated Sam McGee.

14th January 2020, 12:41 AM	#47
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 13,309	Originally Posted by Elagabalus And setting his tarp home on fire was totally like a "yeah, I meant to do that moment". No, that was stupid. But that doesn't mean that the rescue was reliant on luck.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

14th January 2020, 12:43 AM	#48
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by Roboramma No, that was stupid. But that doesn't mean that the rescue was reliant on luck. And the phone with the dodgy battery?
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5,229

14th January 2020, 01:12 AM	#49
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 13,309	Originally Posted by Elagabalus And the phone with the dodgy battery? Are you disagreeing with anything I said? Do you think his rescue was reliant on luck?
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

14th January 2020, 01:23 AM	#50
rockinkt Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,437	Originally Posted by Roboramma Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you. The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck. Ummmm...No. The man was incompetent, stupid, and lucky. 1) He obviously knew nothing about making a proper shelter with an adequate chimney system which was high enough above the roof line so sparks on the roof would not be problem. 2) He did not make an emergency cache with food, clothing, emergency gear, that anyone with half a brain does when living remotely. 3) He did not practice the basic severe cold habit of banking your fire for short term forays out of your camp; Or, letting your fire go out and then pre-stacking your kindling and wood in your fireplace/stove so it only takes one match to get it to start on your return from longer term absences. As far as your assertion that he had some sort of "check-in" plan with somebody - there is no evidence of that at all. According to the OP - he only called people on a sporadic basis and all he could was hope that someone would miss him and call the authorities. "Steele had a "crappy" phone that he'd been using to check in with friends and family, but authorities said it was lost in the fire. So he hoped someone would call for a welfare check after they hadn't heard from him. If someone hadn't come by Day 35, he'd set out."
	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt* Last edited by rockinkt; 14th January 2020 at 01:29 AM. Reason: edited for typos

14th January 2020, 02:28 AM	#51
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,942	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I thought is was defined by the siding also being the support structure. The corrugated siding usually is self supporting, IIIRC. That's a Nissen hut. The difference between them is the Quonset has a frame that the sidings are attached to. Looking around it looks to me like non-corrugated huts are still considered Quonset huts, at least people are selling them as such. I think the original Quonset's were corrugated iron, and that may well have been the original design spec, but I expect the naming has morphed to include other materials.
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,942

14th January 2020, 04:07 AM	#52
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 48,481	Originally Posted by dudalb Have to admit when I saw this story my mind fled to a famous Jack London short story about survival in the Alaskan Wilderness called 'To Build A Fire". It does not have a happy ending...great story though. Yes it does, the dog lives ergo happy ending.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

14th January 2020, 04:09 AM	#53
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 48,481	Originally Posted by Elagabalus And the phone with the dodgy battery? So he might have gotten a check on because his phone died instead of burned in a fire. Not optimal but better than no reason to check on him till spring.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

14th January 2020, 04:11 AM	#54
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,359	Originally Posted by Tolls That's a Nissen hut. The difference between them is the Quonset has a frame that the sidings are attached to. According to Wikipedia, Nissen huts also have a supporting frame.

14th January 2020, 04:42 AM	#55
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,128	As he was effectively camping and using a wood-burning stove, wouldn't it have been a usual precaution to have a fire extinguisher with him?
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

14th January 2020, 07:16 AM	#56
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,541	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne As he was effectively camping and using a wood-burning stove, wouldn't it have been a usual precaution to have a fire extinguisher with him? It sounds like he moved in with enough time, I would have just made a sheet metal roof.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

14th January 2020, 07:22 AM	#57
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41,359	Originally Posted by plague311 It sounds like he moved in with enough time, I would have just made a sheet metal roof. Made it out of what?

14th January 2020, 07:49 AM	#58
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,541	Originally Posted by theprestige Made it out of what? They don't have places to get ******* sheet metal in all of Alaska? They appear to have gotten some pieces there before as there was some at the site. He had made this plan, bought the land from a Vietnam Vet, and made it a point to move thousands of miles to go there. Some are claiming he was a pretty good outdoorsman, or survivalist. Outdoorsman\survivalists don't make sure everything is fully prepared before moving into a remote part of Alaska? Didn't someone earlier in the thread say he got stuff airdropped to him?
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

14th January 2020, 07:52 AM	#59
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,942	Originally Posted by theprestige According to Wikipedia, Nissen huts also have a supporting frame. Hmm. Good point. Oh well...
Tolls Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,942

14th January 2020, 08:27 AM	#60
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,384	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne As he was effectively camping and using a wood-burning stove, wouldn't it have been a usual precaution to have a fire extinguisher with him? The article and statement don't list his full cache of provisions. They are rather short. I think most fire extinguishers would freeze solid in those temperatures unless kept near the fire, where it would have likely been consumed before he could get to it anyway. The police statement says he was also dodging 500 rounds of shotgun/rifle ammo that were also burning. Ridicule all you guys like, but he was no fool. He may be a little whacky about living on very little, but that is different thing. The easiest thing in the world is to Monday Morning Quarterback how to have prevented it. Think about it. Absolutely anything can be corrected in hindsight. He tried to get a fire going quicker and fed it with cardboard, likely because it had gotten damned cold. He knew that was not copasetic and was a lapse of judgement, but his rig had also been functioning without problems for months. It's not like he floundered immediately. I would venture that most posters here would be dead within a few hours after the fire. Surviving in sub zero temps with salvaged provisions is no joke. Even making a snow cave shelter that doesn't collapse on you takes some skill.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi

14th January 2020, 08:32 AM	#61
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,541	Originally Posted by Thermal Think about it. Absolutely anything can be corrected in hindsight. He tried to get a fire going quicker and fed it with cardboard, likely because it had gotten damned cold. He knew that was not copasetic and was a lapse of judgement, but his rig had also been functioning without problems for months. It's not like he floundered immediately. I would venture that most posters here would be dead within a few hours after the fire. Surviving in sub zero temps with salvaged provisions is no joke. Even making a snow cave shelter that doesn't collapse on you takes some skill. That still doesn't change the fact that it was mostly luck, and not skill, that saved him. It also doesn't change the fact that there were a myriad of things he could have done to prevent this from happening. My father says all the time "A good hunter prevents accidents, he doesn't react to them." He chose not to do that. No one here is wishing he was dead, but he's a far cry from some top tier survivalist and his ignorance led to the death of a dog. That's the part that bugs me the most. I get he's suffering too, but his dog had to pay the price. ETA: He also wasn't living on limited resources, per himself: Quote: He had a two-year supply of food but had stored it next to flammable oils and greases and the bullets. A propane tank also was there. He said he couldn't extinguish the fire. ...not the best plan.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 14th January 2020 at 08:37 AM.

14th January 2020, 08:49 AM	#62
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,384	Originally Posted by plague311 That still doesn't change the fact that it was mostly luck, and not skill, that saved him. It also doesn't change the fact that there were a myriad of things he could have done to prevent this from happening. My father says all the time "A good hunter prevents accidents, he doesn't react to them." He chose not to do that. No one here is wishing he was dead, but he's a far cry from some top tier survivalist and his ignorance led to the death of a dog. That's the part that bugs me the most. I get he's suffering too, but his dog had to pay the price. ETA: He also wasn't living on limited resources, per himself: ...not the best plan. Agreed for the most part, but I would assume he had prevented hundreds of accidents over the months. I assume this because he is alive. From what I gather, he spread supplies out in his camp. It's true that he could have spread them further, and sprawled out for acres, but for practical purposes he had to keep things fairly tight. Not sure if this camp was intended to be permanent, or was a work in progress, either. eta: cans of food in a tarp shelter is surely 'limited resources', no? I'm not saying he was living off the land entirely. But 'limited' is surely fair.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi Last edited by Thermal; 14th January 2020 at 09:01 AM.

14th January 2020, 08:52 AM	#63
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 48,481	Originally Posted by Thermal I think most fire extinguishers would freeze solid in those temperatures unless kept near the fire, where it would have likely been consumed before he could get to it anyway. Not at all, the most common fire extinguisher is a dry powder so nothing to freeze.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

14th January 2020, 08:58 AM	#64
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,384	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Not at all, the most common fire extinguisher is a dry powder so nothing to freeze. I was going by memory on that. I recall a household extinguisher, ABC IIRC, that was exposed to temps in the teens and burst. I assumed whatever was providing compression was freeze-expansion sensitive.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi

14th January 2020, 09:01 AM	#65
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 48,481	Originally Posted by Thermal I was going by memory on that. I recall a household extinguisher, ABC IIRC, that was exposed to temps in the teens and burst. I assumed whatever was providing compression was freeze-expansion sensitive. They are generally just compressed air not anything that would be effected by such moderate temperatures. Cold effecting the plastic pressure vessel they used to be made of seems more likely than the contents being adversely effected. See the huge recall and reworking of fire extingushers a couple of years ago.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

14th January 2020, 09:06 AM	#66
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,384	Originally Posted by Elagabalus And the phone with the dodgy battery? It was a new phone, and I would have to assume a Sonim or similar rated to work in extreme temps, because it had limped along till burning in the fire. What he said was that this new phone wouldn't keep a charge, likely due to severe cold. Assuming lithium-ion battery, that is a real problem. They do get weak in the cold.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi

14th January 2020, 09:26 AM	#67
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,541	Originally Posted by Thermal Agreed for the most part, but I would assume he had prevented hundreds of accidents over the months. I assume this because he is alive. Maybe, but that's something that can be said about every human that walks the Earth. It doesn't really do anything to support him being a well rounded survivalist. Just a regular guy. Originally Posted by Thermal From what I gather, he spread supplies out in his camp. It's true that he could have spread them further, and sprawled out for acres, but for practical purposes he had to keep things fairly tight. Not sure if this camp was intended to be permanent, or was a work in progress, either. It could have been. I didn't get the impression he spread things out around his camp since he had to run in and all he did was grab everything off of his bed. Then he grabbed some canned foods. He didn't have anything outside from what I've read. Everything he lived on came from the house. I can tell you that I would certainly be dead from the fire because I have a serious love for my dogs. I would have burned up trying to carry him out, but I have tiny dogs. Not a medium sized one like this guy had, so I get it. Even if it wasn't meant to be permanent or was a work in progress seems a little irrelevant. He recently bought it from someone, and knew winter was coming. A good outdoorsman would make having a solid, usable structure that would last through one of the harshest winters, or have a backup method available away from his abode, a distinct and immediate priority. A tent, shelter, supplies, etc. You always have a backup. In North Dakota you would get laughed out of a room if you admitted to not having a full backup supply kit in your car should anything happen, and we aren't in the middle of nowhere. In all of my cars we have jumper cables, sweat pants\shirts, blankets, and dry consumables in the winter. It's just SOP. Originally Posted by Thermal eta: cans of food in a tarp shelter is surely 'limited resources', no? I'm not saying he was living off the land entirely. But 'limited' is surely fair. It's probably semantic, I wouldn't call 2 years worth of food limited though. If his place hadn't burned down I would say that he was extremely well stocked as far as food goes.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 14th January 2020 at 09:29 AM.

14th January 2020, 02:57 PM	#68
Thermal Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: God's own NJ USA Posts: 9,384	Originally Posted by plague311 Maybe, but that's something that can be said about every human that walks the Earth. It doesn't really do anything to support him being a well rounded survivalist. Just a regular guy. Well, a regular guy has the benefits of living in civilization. Utilities, other people and all. For him, a trip to move his bowels could be a bit more dangerous than for you or I. Quote: It could have been. I didn't get the impression he spread things out around his camp since he had to run in and all he did was grab everything off of his bed. Then he grabbed some canned foods. He didn't have anything outside from what I've read. Everything he lived on came from the house. I can tell you that I would certainly be dead from the fire because I have a serious love for my dogs. I would have burned up trying to carry him out, but I have tiny dogs. Not a medium sized one like this guy had, so I get it. If you look at the pics, he had a camp going, not just the quonset thing. Even storage for that much food took some space. He also thought his dog was already out, but agreed, that was damned horrible. Quote: Even if it wasn't meant to be permanent or was a work in progress seems a little irrelevant. He recently bought it from someone, and knew winter was coming. A good outdoorsman would make having a solid, usable structure that would last through one of the harshest winters, or have a backup method available away from his abode, a distinct and immediate priority. A tent, shelter, supplies, etc. You always have a backup. In North Dakota you would get laughed out of a room if you admitted to not having a full backup supply kit in your car should anything happen, and we aren't in the middle of nowhere. In all of my cars we have jumper cables, sweat pants\shirts, blankets, and dry consumables in the winter. It's just SOP. It's probably semantic, I wouldn't call 2 years worth of food limited though. If his place hadn't burned down I would say that he was extremely well stocked as far as food goes. I'm wondering a little about the timeline. He said he started the fire with some cardboard, but woke in the middle of the night to it just beginning to blaze. The cardboard should have burned up in seconds. Why did the thing not burn till hours later? Eta: by limited resources, I meant more than just food. I mean all the stuff we don't even think about that keeps us alive.
	__________________ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie -Miyamoto Musashi Last edited by Thermal; 14th January 2020 at 02:59 PM.

14th January 2020, 03:14 PM	#69
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,541	Originally Posted by Thermal Well, a regular guy has the benefits of living in civilization. Utilities, other people and all. For him, a trip to move his bowels could be a bit more dangerous than for you or I. To me, they're just different dangers. Murderers, cars running you over, car accidents, home invasions, etc. None of which are fears of his at all. Originally Posted by Thermal If you look at the pics, he had a camp going, not just the quonset thing. Even storage for that much food took some space. He also thought his dog was already out, but agreed, that was damned horrible. The food was all stored inside though. He said he grabbed the food he could from inside and that's what he lived on. If I remember right he mentioned saving the burned plastic food until last. Originally Posted by Thermal I'm wondering a little about the timeline. He said he started the fire with some cardboard, but woke in the middle of the night to it just beginning to blaze. The cardboard should have burned up in seconds. Why did the thing not burn till hours later? Without seeing the previous home it all seems random to me. I don't really understand what caught on fire. Plastic\tarp isn't really all that flammable enough to start from a small spark I don't think, and he said he thinks it started from a tarp. If he started the fire, stripped to his long johns, climbed into bed, and then woke up to the roof already beyond his ability to put out, then I truly believe something else had to fuel this fire. I just haven't mentioned it because I have absolutely nothing to back it up. I don't know how it takes that long (at the very least 15-20) to start a tarp on fire and have it burn through a quonset. I've heard of trailer homes burning down in less time. Originally Posted by Thermal Eta: by limited resources, I meant more than just food. I mean all the stuff we don't even think about that keeps us alive. Ah. I don't have much to add there.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 14th January 2020 at 03:15 PM.

14th January 2020, 03:36 PM	#70
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 24,683	Originally Posted by Roboramma Lady Luck didn't send the helicopter. People who he had been maintaining contact with and who knew of his situation and did. That's exactly what we're supposed to do when going into the wilderness, make sure that someone knows where you're going and after what length of time of no contact they should contact someone to go looking for you. The fact that he was rescued was due precisely to the precaution that he took, not luck. But I'm not willing to call it a precaution he took either. In his post-rescue interviews he used language that very clearly conveyed that he had hoped his relatives would set "something" in motion to try and found out what happened to him after communication ended; not that he confidently assumed they would, or that they were instructed to do so after a certain amount of time. In fact, I would use exactly these circumstances to contradict you: if he had been responsible, he would have positively set an arrangement that after exactly this much time incommunicado they should contact so-and-so. And certainly in less time than three weeks! But clearly no such arrangement existed, forcing him to "hope". According to the release, he didn't even figure on them calling rescue authorities as such - he supposed they would have contacted his air supply outfit. He is lucky that they only waited 3 weeks. If they waited much longer, he might have run out of food, and if that happened he would be dead.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 Last edited by Checkmite; 14th January 2020 at 03:45 PM.

15th January 2020, 09:28 AM	#71
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 7,541	Originally Posted by Checkmite But I'm not willing to call it a precaution he took either. In his post-rescue interviews he used language that very clearly conveyed that he had hoped his relatives would set "something" in motion to try and found out what happened to him after communication ended; not that he confidently assumed they would, or that they were instructed to do so after a certain amount of time. In fact, I would use exactly these circumstances to contradict you: if he had been responsible, he would have positively set an arrangement that after exactly this much time incommunicado they should contact so-and-so. And certainly in less time than three weeks! But clearly no such arrangement existed, forcing him to "hope". According to the release, he didn't even figure on them calling rescue authorities as such - he supposed they would have contacted his air supply outfit. He is lucky that they only waited 3 weeks. If they waited much longer, he might have run out of food, and if that happened he would be dead. Just to add to that. He said that the meal before his last night was the worst he had because it was down to the burnt foods. He also said he started thinking about what he would do after 35 because he thought someone lived within 5 miles of him. There was absolutely nothing certain about anything he said.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

15th January 2020, 01:42 PM	#72
Myriad Hyperthetical Pither Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 15,818	Originally Posted by Thermal I'm wondering a little about the timeline. He said he started the fire with some cardboard, but woke in the middle of the night to it just beginning to blaze. The cardboard should have burned up in seconds. Why did the thing not burn till hours later? Smoldering. I have a personal anecdote that might help illustrate. Around 2002, after a flood put our furnace out of commission, while waiting for repairs, my wife and I moved our mattress downstairs to the first floor, so we could sleep near our wood stove. The wood stove was more than adequate to heat the first floor on cold autumn nights. One night, after carefully emptying the old cold ashes from the night before, bagging them, and putting them out of the way in a plastic wastebasket, we lit the stove and went to sleep for the night. I trust everyone immediately recognizes the foolish and potentially fatal mistake we made. Hours later, in the middle of the night, I woke up. Because it wasn't my regular bed in regular surroundings, instead of just rolling over and going back to sleep, I opened my eyes and looked around. Across the room, I saw a faint orange glow. An ember from the "cold" ashes had smoldered through the trash bag and through the side of the wastebasket. It was the edges of the quarter-size hole in the side of the wastebasket that were glowing. Easily put out with a few ounces of water, but minutes or hours later, who knows? It might have gone out by itself. It might have continued to smolder until, when we got up in the morning, there was nothing there except a pile of old ashes mixed with residual melted plastic and a scorch mark on the wood floor. Or it might have flamed up and killed us in our sleep.
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

15th January 2020, 02:05 PM	#73
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 19,630	Originally Posted by Tolls That's a Nissen hut. The difference between them is the Quonset has a frame that the sidings are attached to. Damn. Don't tell theprestige, I hate being wrong. Quote: Looking around it looks to me like non-corrugated huts are still considered Quonset huts, at least people are selling them as such. I think the original Quonset's were corrugated iron, and that may well have been the original design spec, but I expect the naming has morphed to include other materials. Fine, I'll put my narrow definition up on the shelf with my assertion that "irregardless" is not a word. I can move on, really. I rarely sip scotch while perusing that shelf in the evening. Rarely.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

15th January 2020, 03:09 PM	#74
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 24,683	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith Damn. Don't tell theprestige, I hate being wrong. Fine, I'll put my narrow definition up on the shelf with my assertion that "irregardless" is not a word. I can move on, really. I rarely sip scotch while perusing that shelf in the evening. Rarely. Okay then, next debate: was the roof of this guy's hut flammable, or was it inflammable?
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

15th January 2020, 04:00 PM	#75
CORed Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 9,190	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I misread "fool" as "food". He might as well have been. There seems to be something about that state that attracts dingbats, and reality TV producers to film them. Given the number of bears in Alaska, he's pretty lucky he didn't become food for one of them.