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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 13th January 2020, 07:06 PM   #361
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post


Clearly, you and bb are either trolling or you've bought into that utterly nonsensical right-wing selected caricature. Either way, this is so far beyond inane that it's not even worth the time it would take to rip it to shreds.
agreed on all points
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:11 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't know. I do think we are better off running a moderate. A lot of people despise Trump but at the same time might be too afraid of what they think is the Doc Brown of Socialism or Warren's messaging. I'm tilting toward Klobuchar/Biden/Bloomberg
FDR was no moderate, and he won four elections.

Tell me again how Centrists (in actuality Left-wing Republicans) are best for the party...
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:16 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but if that applies to everyone else as well, why would it be relevant?
There's a Bob echo in here.
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:18 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There's a Bob echo in here.
You know, all you needed to do was say, for instance, that Booker was worse than the others in that respect, in your opinion, and that would've done it. But instead you turn it immediately personal. You can't even tolerate a minor challenge to one of your claims.

So maybe he wasn't worse than the others in that respect.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:19 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
FDR was no moderate, and he won four elections.

Tell me again how Centrists (in actuality Left-wing Republicans) are best for the party...
My view is that every election is unique, and every candidate is unique. Even the same candidate is different when they're an incumbent rather than a challenger.

Certain patterns can be observed, but they don't lead to reliable conclusions based on past performance. There's nothing FDR can really tell us about the viability of a non-"moderate" candidate today.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:21 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I mean, FDR had an openly socialist VP in the goddamned 1940s.
And the corporatists within the party made it a point to get rid of him when it became clear that FDR's VP in the '44 campaign would finish out Roosevelt's last term.

THe level of shennanigans they got up to to keep Wallace from being the VP nom were beyond outrageous. This in my opiniion marked the start of the neoliberal era in the party that culminated in BJ Clinton selling out to the Republican agenda during his presidency.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:25 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That's the thing, though---It's not even evidence. You do know that Obama was elected, don't you?

Twice, in fact.

So you found someone who said he wouldn't vote for Obama. Big Deal. I can find people who say they would never vote for Trump; he won, too. In fact, given any candidate I'm confident you can find people who would never vote for that candidate. It's not unusual and shouldn't convince you that a given candidate would be hard pressed to win an election.
For the record about that bolded part, anecdotal evidence is used all the time. You simply collect it systematically and use ruling out variables. Giving an anecdote along with other evidence is incredibly common in medical science.

That said, WTF? You ignored the whole post except that one anecdote.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The problem with ignoring the socialism label is it triggers a whole slew of voters to run in terror.

My brother who isn't particularly political told me years ago that "Obama is a socialist" and nothing I could say would make him change that view.

And neither Warren nor Sanders have countered the threat the cost of Medicare for all is being cited as. They can be as right as rain but if the messaging fails then no one will know it.

The (right-wing) Hill 2018: Poll: Majority of Americans say they would not vote for a 'socialist'

Quote:
In a new Hill.TV/HarrisX American Barometer poll released Tuesday, an overwhelming majority of respondents, 76 percent, said they would not vote for a “socialist” political candidate, while only 24 percent of those polled said they would vote for a socialist candidate.
From StartPage Search, take your pick:

Quote:
New poll: Capitalism is more popular than socialism - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...han-socialism/
Jun 25, 2019 ... New poll: Capitalism is more popular than socialism. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) speaks at the Poor People's Moral Action Congress ...

Four in 10 Americans prefer socialism to capitalism, poll finds | US ...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ism-poll-axios
Jun 10, 2019 ... Axios poll says 55% of women aged 18-54 prefer socialism but ... Donald Trump has frequently railed against socialism as he gears up to bid...

Four in 10 Americans Embrace Some Form of Socialism - Gallup News
https://news.gallup.com/poll/257639/...socialism.aspx
May 20, 2019 ... Those results contrast with a 1942 Roper/Fortune survey that found 40% describing socialism as a bad thing, 25% a good thing and 34% not ...

U.S. Support for More Government Inches Up, but Not for Socialism
https://news.gallup.com/poll/268295/...socialism.aspx
Nov 18, 2019 ... While Americans continue to evaluate socialism negatively, they have become ... Gallup conducted an in-depth survey of U.S. attitudes toward ... people's lives and "1" indicates they favor government providing only the most ...

How Republicans, Democrats view socialism and capitalism | Pew ...
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...sm-capitalism/
Jun 25, 2019 ... Republicans express intensely negative views of “socialism” and very ... capitalism (65%) than socialism (42%), according to a new survey by Pew ... Mirroring the age divide among the public overall, younger people in both ...
The attitude is changing, but not enough. It risks people holding their noses and voting for Trump.
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th January 2020 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:28 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You know, all you needed to do was say, for instance, that Booker was worse than the others in that respect, in your opinion, and that would've done it. But instead you turn it immediately personal. You can't even tolerate a minor challenge to one of your claims.

So maybe he wasn't worse than the others in that respect.
Hold on here, Booker being worse or not worse was not what I said. I said what I meant, "Umm, because Booker just dropped out and I was posting my reaction to why his campaign failed to take off."

Not sure what's hard to understand there.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:35 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The idea is for the plebs to give up travel, not important bigshots like AOC and Joe Biden. They can jet around all they want; once they are elected they can stop the rise of the seas just by telling the media not to write about it.
Oh, dear, now acbytesla has another stupid post to consider.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:38 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's nothing FDR can really tell us about the viability of a non-"moderate" candidate today.
I dunno, if FDR returned from the afterlife to dish on the current candidates I think we should give him a listen. I'm not saying we should take what he says as gospel, I'm just saying it'd be worth listening to.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:44 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
if FDR returned from the afterlife to dish on the current candidates I think we should give him a listen.
I don't. Seriously, imagine for a moment that you could come back from the afterlife. You know what happens after death. You know how to communicate with the living. Is politics what you'd "dish on"? If it is, your judgment is worthless.
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Old 13th January 2020, 07:59 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't. Seriously, imagine for a moment that you could come back from the afterlife. You know what happens after death. You know how to communicate with the living. Is politics what you'd "dish on"? If it is, your judgment is worthless.
FDR was a politician. There's no reason to suppose he'd lose interest in his own field that was such a large part of his life just because he'd died. Do you think Shakespeare wouldn't be interested in talking about theater, or Lister about medicine, or Walt Disney about cryogenics?
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:16 PM   #373
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FDR would tell Bernie he's being too soft on his opponents and the establishment.
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:25 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
FDR was no moderate, and he won four elections.

Tell me again how Centrists (in actuality Left-wing Republicans) are best for the party...
Different time, different person. Go back and look at the 1932 Presidential election. Hoover had no chance winning reelection after the Bonus Army incident. He was hardly welcome in public. He very often had things thrown at him. And it's kind of hard to believe, but Roosevelt originally ran on belt tightening.

You simply can't compare one election to the next without taking into consideration one hell of a lot of variables. I'm convinced the right candidate can win almost regardless of the policies they espouse. And I dont care how great your solutions might be if you stink at selling it. And the times matter.

I really don't think elections are won or lost on policy positions. I think they are won based on the persuasive capabilities of the candidate more than anything.

Trump is a policy and principle moron. He barely knows anything about anything. Hillary was the greatest political wonk I've ever seen. She knows issues and government probably better than anyone running for POTUS in the last 100 years or more. This should have been a landslide victory for her. That it was not was because Hillary couldn't sell.
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Old 13th January 2020, 08:31 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
For the record about that bolded part, anecdotal evidence is used all the time. You simply collect it systematically and use ruling out variables. Giving an anecdote along with other evidence is incredibly common in medical science.

Evidence of what? That some people refuse to vote for socialists? I accept that as obvious, the evidence is literally self evident.

On the other hand: Evidence that socialists are unelectable? Then it's a bad choice, as I claimed: Obama won. Twice. And therefore it is not evidence of unelectability.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:05 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Evidence of what? That some people refuse to vote for socialists? I accept that as obvious, the evidence is literally self evident.

On the other hand: Evidence that socialists are unelectable? Then it's a bad choice, as I claimed: Obama won. Twice. And therefore it is not evidence of unelectability.
My brother didn't vote for him.

Let it go Cab. I am not your enemy.

If you have some counter evidence, that the voting public in the US is ready to elect a socialist, does not think socialism is a dirty word, and/or that it's a positive for a candidate and not a negative, let's see it.
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:44 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I had that problem with Beto.

This is why I really like Warren. She has serious ideas on how we should address certain issues. Sometimes I think she is very wrong. But I have to give her credit for thinking about them.
Even moreso, HOW she works to make her plans is one of the best things about her, I think.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I don't get the Warren/Sanders feud.
The better question here is... what feud? Quite literally, at last check, Bernie's pretty much outright forbidden his campaign members from attacking Warren, with penalty attached. I think Warren's done similar, but I haven't looked beyond the pointed instructions not to attack. That doesn't mean that their supporters won't cynically or otherwise go after the other, of course, but it makes it pretty clear that talk of a "feud" is nonsense.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is precisely the reason for the feud. They're fighting for the same pool of supporters.
It may surprise you how very distinctly different and complex their pools of supporters actually are, contrary to the narrative that much of the media is trying to sell. The whole "moderate vs. progressive" narrative is overwhelmingly overblown compared to the facts at hand, either way, last I checked... and honestly, I strongly suspect that that's just yet another one of the many ploys by the corporate media to try to reduce or limit support for the actually left leaning Democrats. A bit like CNN tacking on a video of a completely unrelated Democrat getting busted for corruption into an article about AOC that had nothing to do with any crime, but much louder.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:35 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
My brother didn't vote for him.

Let it go Cab. I am not your enemy.

If you have some counter evidence, that the voting public in the US is ready to elect a socialist, does not think socialism is a dirty word, and/or that it's a positive for a candidate and not a negative, let's see it.

I've already presented evidence that the US is ready to elect a "socialist", given certain definitions of the word (there are so many out there): Many people thought Obama was a socialist and yet he was elected. Twice.
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Old 14th January 2020, 12:20 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
FDR was no moderate, and he won four elections.

Tell me again how Centrists (in actuality Left-wing Republicans) are best for the party...
Yes, a non-moderate was able to win in the early years of the Great Depression. Kind of like how a black man with the middle name of Hussein was able to win in the early years of the Great Recession.
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Old 14th January 2020, 12:47 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I've already presented evidence that the US is ready to elect a "socialist", given certain definitions of the word (there are so many out there): Many people thought Obama was a socialist and yet he was elected. Twice.
Which post, I'll go look.

If you are claiming some people believed Obama was a socialist yet they still elected him, that is not sufficient.

1) Obama wasn't a socialist.
2) The people who believed it were not a majority.
3) It bears no relevance to the election of a candidate who actually does lean heavily socialist.
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 14th January 2020, 01:24 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which post, I'll go look.
The very post you just quoted.

Quote:
If you are claiming some people believed Obama was a socialist yet they still elected him, that is not sufficient.

1) Obama wasn't a socialist.
2) The people who believed it were not a majority.
3) It bears no relevance to the election of a candidate who actually does lean heavily socialist.
Hey, you are the one who brought up the anecdotal evidence of your brother not voting for Obama because he was a socialist. I merely claimed that was bad evidence because Obama actually got elected. Now you seem to be claiming it's bad evidence because he wasn't a socialist to begin with.

Why bring him up if he was not a socialist and he got elected, then? He doesn't really seem relevant on any level--Indeed, you, yourself said so in point 3).
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Old 14th January 2020, 02:30 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't. Seriously, imagine for a moment that you could come back from the afterlife. You know what happens after death. You know how to communicate with the living. Is politics what you'd "dish on"? If it is, your judgment is worthless.
Perhaps he went to hell and only had other politicians to talk to all that time.
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Old 14th January 2020, 03:11 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Hey, you are the one who brought up the anecdotal evidence of your brother not voting for Obama because he was a socialist. I merely claimed that was bad evidence because Obama actually got elected. Now you seem to be claiming it's bad evidence because he wasn't a socialist to begin with.
To poke at this a little, I'm not sure why you think that your responses actually address what she actually said in the first place. Her anecdote about her brother was putting forth an example of a person who refused to vote for Obama because he thought that Obama was a socialist, regardless of whether Obama actually was a socialist or not. She also linked a number of polls dealing with how accepting people are of "socialism," which were of much more value in making the point. Now, as she said, Obama wasn't much of a socialist and most people who actually paid any real attention knew that (at least among the population that might have been willing to vote for him), so your response was a bit wrong-headed, both before and here.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Why bring him up if he was not a socialist and he got elected, then? He doesn't really seem relevant on any level--Indeed, you, yourself said so in point 3).
And why not bring him up as she did? Her anecdote worked just fine as she used it. That you seem to be having difficulty following along with what she's actually said is probably decent reason to step back for a little, reread for comprehension, and recheck your assumptions.
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Old 14th January 2020, 04:54 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
To poke at this a little, I'm not sure why you think that your responses actually address what she actually said in the first place. Her anecdote about her brother was putting forth an example of a person who refused to vote for Obama because he thought that Obama was a socialist, regardless of whether Obama actually was a socialist or not. She also linked a number of polls dealing with how accepting people are of "socialism," which were of much more value in making the point. Now, as she said, Obama wasn't much of a socialist and most people who actually paid any real attention knew that (at least among the population that might have been willing to vote for him), so your response was a bit wrong-headed, both before and here.



And why not bring him up as she did? Her anecdote worked just fine as she used it. That you seem to be having difficulty following along with what she's actually said is probably decent reason to step back for a little, reread for comprehension, and recheck your assumptions.


Of course I am aware that some people refuse to vote for a socialist; my only point is that none of this implies that a socialist can not be elected.
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Old 14th January 2020, 06:06 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Warren met with Sanders in 2018 and told friends afterward that Sanders told her he didn't think a woman could win.



Sanders denies:



Hard to believe that the people talking to CNN are doing so without Warren's approval.
The feud heats up. Who is telling the truth?
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Old 14th January 2020, 06:22 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The feud heats up. Who is telling the truth?
Is this the part where Warren supporters pretend that everyone on the planet wasn't talking about the effects sexism had on HRC's run in 2016 or how sexism might be a general problem for any woman candidate?

The smear that Bernie discouraged a woman from running or thinks Warren shouldn't run because she's a woman is absurd on its face.
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Old 14th January 2020, 06:53 AM   #387
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Well the conversation happened over a year ago, so there has to be a reason warren thought it was worth bringing up now.
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Old 14th January 2020, 08:45 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Hold on here, Booker being worse or not worse was not what I said. I said what I meant, "Umm, because Booker just dropped out and I was posting my reaction to why his campaign failed to take off."

Not sure what's hard to understand there.
I understood your earlier post about Booker having a specific flaw, which is that he didn't have clear solutions to clear problems. Since the flaw is rather generalised in the current Democratic candidate field, I'm not sure then what your original point was. If it's not a flaw unique to him, then why mention it?

It's really a simple question.
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Old 14th January 2020, 09:11 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Well the conversation happened over a year ago, so there has to be a reason warren thought it was worth bringing up now.
Because it leaked. Coincidentally, the day before a debate, right as LEv Parnas' lawyer is negotiating with prosecutors, and the day after news of Russians hacking Burisma broke.
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Old 14th January 2020, 09:40 AM   #390
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Of course I am aware that some people refuse to vote for a socialist; my only point is that none of this implies that a socialist can not be elected.
Given Obama was not a socialist, his being elected does not prove your point. What else you got?
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 14th January 2020, 09:57 AM   #391
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Given Obama was not a socialist
"Socialist? He's not even a liberal." - Bill Maher
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:10 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Well the conversation happened over a year ago, so there has to be a reason warren thought it was worth bringing up now.
I don't see that she did. It looks like the news media (CNN and Politico) brought it up.

bizpacreview (assuming they are a reliable source)

Quote:
Sanders has inched into the lead in the Hawkeye State, just 20 days before the 2020 Iowa Caucuses, and he was broadsided this week with a CNN report alleging that he told Warren during a Dec. 2018 meeting at her apartment in Washington, DC, that a woman could not win against President Donald Trump.

The story cited four people as sources: two people Warren spoke with directly soon after the encounter, and two people familiar with the meeting....

Well, Shakir was set for disappointment, as Warren’s campaign responded Monday evening with a statement from the senator to say the report is true and that she does not want to discuss it any further....
It was this story that first came to light:
Quote:
There is also a Politico report from last week that Sanders’ campaign allegedly circulated a script for volunteers to tell people that Warren’s the candidate of the elite and that “she’s bringing no new bases into the Democratic Party.”

Warren responded by telling reporters she felt “disappointed,” and said that “Bernie is sending his volunteers out to trash me.”
Also, there are a slew of stories about Sanders' sexism from the 2016 Primary and the 2018 Senate campaigns.

The news media almost certainly went looking for sexism given the Clinton rivalry. But Sanders made it easy paying female staff less than male staff.

GQ: Women who worked on his 2016 campaign have come forward alleging harassment, sexism, and gender-based pay gaps over the course of the Democratic primaries. The issues were reportedly more systemic than just outright sexual harassment.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

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Because feeding poor people is socialism.
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:16 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I understood your earlier post about Booker having a specific flaw, which is that he didn't have clear solutions to clear problems. Since the flaw is rather generalised in the current Democratic candidate field, I'm not sure then what your original point was. If it's not a flaw unique to him, then why mention it?

It's really a simple question.
Give it up. I'm sorry you don't understand why I said what I said. It's not that hard. Your objection isn't relevant.

Who cares if other people do or don't have plans for their descriptions of problems. Other candidates did not just drop out.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

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Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 14th January 2020 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:18 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Because it leaked. Coincidentally, the day before a debate, right as LEv Parnas' lawyer is negotiating with prosecutors, and the day after news of Russians hacking Burisma broke.
Do you know how it was leaked to Politico? Serious question.

I wonder if Warren was or was not responsible.
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:18 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Given Obama was not a socialist, his being elected does not prove your point. What else you got?
I guess first we need to firmly nail down is it actually being socialist that's the problem or vulnerability to the label sticking.

Because I'm starting to feel that "hopping back and forth every other go around" vibe.

That describes the conversation as a whole, not saying any single participant is doing so. That makes it hard to have a consistent discussion.
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:24 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you know how it was leaked to Politico? Serious question.

I wonder if Warren was or was not responsible.
Donal mentioning Lev Parnas and Russia hacking Burisma suggests that he seriously thinks Trump eavesdropped on the conversation and leaked it now to distract from his own troubles.

Me? I figure it has to have been someone close to Sanders or Warren. Coincidence notwithstanding.
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:35 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Give it up. I'm sorry you don't understand why I said what I said. It's not that hard. Your objection isn't relevant.

Who cares if other people do or don't have plans for their descriptions of problems. Other candidates did not just drop out.
Give what up? I'm trying to understand your point, which had nothing to do with him dropping out, and it wasn't an objection.

You said you didn't support Booker because of the flaw you mentioned. You didn't seem to disagree with me that the other candidates have the same problemn, so I have to ask: do you support any one of them?
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:36 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I guess first we need to firmly nail down is it actually being socialist that's the problem or vulnerability to the label sticking.

Because I'm starting to feel that "hopping back and forth every other go around" vibe.

That describes the conversation as a whole, not saying any single participant is doing so. That makes it hard to have a consistent discussion.
It's relative. You know the GOP is going to sling the charge.

But how susceptible the candidates are to the charge depends on how socialist their policies are.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

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Old 14th January 2020, 10:38 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Give what up? ....
Trying to understand my point. If you don't get it yet, you probably never will. And I have given up trying to explain it to you.
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TRUMP CHEATS What color hat should I order with that logo? Red on black maybe? Or black on pink?

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Old 14th January 2020, 10:40 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trying to understand my point. If you don't get it yet, you probably never will.
Can you ever have a conversation without calling other people idiots?

Quote:
And I have given up trying to explain it to you.
You haven't tried to explain it to me.

How about you answer my last question there? Do you support any of the remaining candidates?
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