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#81 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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I have to bring up that over hundreds of years the English (and often their proxies the Scots) have done awful things in Ireland. Intentional starvation, stripping of property, denial of education, outright violence, etc. Do I need to document this?
Do the English of today deserve to be dismissed as violent and untrustworthy because of this moral burden of the past in the same way many English view the IRA in its various manifestations? Why not? Many Irish feel this way. Perhaps both sides need to recognize this and find a way to work in practice around their emotions, even their justified emotions, to make their world and that of their children a better place. |
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#82 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,490
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Here's the way I see it:
Rebelling against the government is not terrorism. Using force to resist government intrusion, and fighting for independence from the government, is not terrorism. A person who does this is probably going to be labeled a terrorist by the government they're opposing, but that is a propaganda definition. It serves the government's purposes, not the purpose of clear communication. Terrorism is when you want to oppose the government, but you don't want to rebel openly. You don't have a military goal that reasonably justifies the killing you embark on. You make no distinction between military targets and civilian targets. Or if you do, you target civilians because they're softer and easier that soldiers. Your objectives are not military success and thence the freedom you're fighting for. Rather, your objectives are political messaging through violence and death. "Freedom" isn't even a part of it. That's terrorism. One man's terrorist is not another man's freedom fighter. It may suit the government to portray rebels as terrorists. It does not suit us to do the same. |
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#83 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,140
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#84 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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#85 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,010
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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#86 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,010
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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#87 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,853
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#88 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,853
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Let’s see. To give an example, if someone like Eoin O’Duffy was still a member of Fine Gael, then they would be beyond the pale (pun not intended). And if he is still reverted by the current Fine Gael, then **** them too! Someone whose organization fought for the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was himself an anti-Semite and fascist is someone that any reputable organization has to explicitly condemn and distance themselves from.
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#89 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,853
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#90 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,911
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That is not what I have argued.
My actual argument is that there was wrong and violence on both sides. Should we condemn the British politicians who, whilst others carried out acts of violence such as soldiers, the police and Unionist terrorists (with allegations of collusion and enablement), tried to and got a peace? The obvious answer is no. Those who sought peace should be praised. The same should apply to Nationalist side. No throwing stones in glass houses and pot/kettle/black come to mind when I hear people trying to condemn the other side as they completely ignore what another side has also done. That Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley made peace and worked together, is a superb example of how those who had been literally at each others throats and who had been involved in violent conflict, should be enabled to move on. What they did atoned for their role in the Troubles and to try and destabilise that success is wrong. Sinn Fein is now a legitimate, elected, democratic party full of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the Troubles. |
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#91 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,911
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I think that the difference between you and me is that I acknowledge there were members of the UK armed forces, UK political parties and police in NI who also bloodied their hands in the Troubles.
By the late 1960s, sectarian repression of the Catholic minority by the Protestant majority, in jobs, housing, schooling and many other areas of life, had marginalised the Catholics. Attacks on Catholics had become so bad, the UK had to send in the Army to allegedly help the RUC, but since the RUC had been part of the sectarian repression, that just made the situation for the Catholic population even worse. Then you criticise them for fighting back! I think that when a minority is persecuted, it is hard to condemn them for fighting back. |
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#92 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,010
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Yes it is because you actually still stick with that horrendous argument later on in your post.
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They should have both rotted in prison for their actions. They did nothing but put a pause to the hatred they caused and propagated and gained wealth and prestige from. That is exactly like two aged drug dealers making peace and receiving applause and gratitude for their stopping being subhuman criminals who caused death and suffering while they retire to luxury all the while laughing at the people they victimized. The difference between you and me is that I stopped the childish idea that two wrongs make a right a long time ago. Furthermore, I do condemn any individuals who used excessive force while trying to enforce the laws of the land. I will not condemn entire governments or government organizations like police forces or military because a few rotten people crossed a very important line. I am absolutely certain that the government organizations whose members crossed the line do not revere and publicly celebrate the criminal actions of their villainous members and leaders like the terrorist Sinn Féin members do of their subhuman scum.
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![]() Sooo...the people that were killed in terrorist attacks were all personally responsible for the trouble the Catholics were having? ![]() People who mix their politics with their most firmly held and fundamental hatreds and prejudices wind up being terrorists - or apologists for terrorists. In doing so - they lose their humanity. It is as simple as that. |
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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#93 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,911
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Strawman. You cannot cope with my actual argument, so you invent one and claim I have made it.
All of those involved in the violence, whether directly or by enabling, were in the wrong.
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All I have done is point out both sides were capable of being as bad as each other when it came to the use or enabling the use of violence and neither side has the moral high ground. But now, on both sides, there are those who had nothing to do with the Troubles and who are working for a political, democratic, non violent future and they should be supported.
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#94 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,768
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann |
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#95 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,410
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#96 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#97 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,853
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__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#98 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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Even if true, the problem is Sinn Fine still has a 'We want the North to join the South, even if a majority of people in the North don't want to" attitude which is not going to be constructive. That has always been the crux of the problem. The Majority of the North..whether for good or bad reasons really does not matter...does not want to become part of the Republic. I don't see that changing anytime soon. And a lot of people in the South don't want the mess a problems of trying to forcing the North to Join. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#99 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#100 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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#101 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
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A lot worse than a bunch of jerks. In fact, as I understand it, not all that easily distinguishable from the types of terrorists you, and I, despise.
I am not justifying bombings targeting civilians. Just noting again that to establish peace and a future both sides have to negotiate with elements guilty of dreadful things in the past. |
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#102 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,010
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Nonsense. You have no argument other than "They did it too!"
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Again - the government and the police and military organisations are not marching in the streets and celebrating the vicious murderers and rapists and their terrorist acts.
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Besides - the OP and my points are about the subhuman terrorists and their horrid supporters that make up the Sinn Fein Party. If you want to discuss the villainous acts of others - like Rob Roy MacGregor ![]()
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The obvious solution would be to start another political party that absolutely and completely calls out the atrocities that Sinn Fein committed and spits on their symbolism and bans their songs. You want to do good? Start by making no doubt of your abhorrence of terrorism and violence. Easy!
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__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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#103 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#105 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#106 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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I understand what you are saying. However, it is not just a case of a bunch of murderous thugs setting off bombs and killing and maiming innocent victims.
Once you know the history it takes on a different complexion. People are willing to die for their country and they will employ any means to do so rather than being taken over by another country. You see it as an act of wanton criminality, they see it as an act of war. |
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#107 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#108 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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All decent minded people agree with you.
However, imagine if your country was invaded and you became subjected to the laws of this new power. Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say you wouldn't be moved to try to overthrow them and regain your country back? |
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! |
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#109 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,350
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#110 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,911
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We agree the IRA were terrorists and their actions were despicable and unjustified.
You then refuse to acknowledge why they did what they did and how others actions influenced their actions. Just because I do and I acknowledge the role of the UK government and Unionists in NI, in helping to cause the violence does not mean I support it. It is unreasonable, unrealistic and rather ignorant of you, to expect people to just cow down to being repressed and not fight back when subject to violence. Scotland has had little to no violence when it comes to Nationalist campaigns for independence. That is because no group in Scotland has suffered like Catholics did in 1960s NI. If Catholics in 1960s NI had equal access to jobs, housing, schooling and were well represented in the RUC and a say in local government, the Troubles would not have happened. |
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#111 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,490
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The way I see it, there are three principles governing the morality of causing civilian deaths (collateral damage) in warfare.
Military distinction: It is incumbent on belligerents to distinguish their combatants from their noncombatants. This is accomplished with measures like uniforms, visible symbols, segregated facilities, etc. Soldiers that hide among civilians (e.g., terrorists) are committing a war crime. Militaries that base their operations among civilians likewise. Civilian deaths that arise from fighting such people are their fault, not the fault of the people fighting them. That said, there are two other principles to consider. Military necessity: There must be some concrete, achievable military goal, for the attack. You're capturing a bridge, establishing a beachhead, decapitating their high command, destroying their supply depots, etc. Something that diminishes their capacity to wage war. Proportionality: The violence of the attack must be proportional to the military value if it succeeds. Getting rid of a squad of commandos holed up in an apartment block is a military goal. Nuking the entire city to do so is out of proportion to the military value of getting rid of those commandos. Bringing down the apartment block on their heads may not be, though. There are nuances, and while the above principles are sound guidelines, they must be applied on a case by case basis. Your question, "Including Chruchhill and FDR?" is too vague. We'd have to examine specific cases in context. Some of the violence perpetrated by rebels in Northern Ireland was military. Some of it was terrorism. |
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#112 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,121
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See there is a moral difference, killing local minorities and running a terror campaign to keep them in their place is totally different than bombing civilians in far away cities. You can bomb the local minorities all you want and it is not at all the terrorism of the same kind. It is the bombing of distant majorities that is more morally repugnant.
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#113 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,121
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Ah now it is the time for the half hearted equivocation about total war or some such changing morals and making the targeting of civilians to disrupt industry acceptable because of some vague reason.
Yet for some reason a minor power can never be involved in a total war for its existence with a major power, that is only something major powers can be in with each other for moral reasons. |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#114 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
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#115 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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A lot of truth in that, but you are still dodging the issue;A majority of the people in Ulster almost certainly do not want to be part of the Republic.
I don't like the whole Orange mentality very much, but I also don't want to coerce them into being part of the Republic if they don't want to. A black and white, good guys mentality is what got Ireland into this mess to begin with. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#116 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#117 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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AMused that the left is always accusing the right of seeing things in black and white and wanting simple solutions...which is true...but they are often guilty of the same things.
BTW if Sinn Finn is sincere about giving up violence, why don't they just disband The IRA or have a total break with the IRA? It's life a Mafia family saying they are going 100 percent legit,but still keeping a small army of hitmen. you can't blame people for being skeptical. I also wonder if the bretheren of the Left are just as forgiving and understanding of the Orange Paramilities. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#118 |
Lackey
Administrator
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Location: South East, UK
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#119 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,082
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Don't know the parties well enough to know if it would work, but a look over their Wiki entries suggests that the best result would be a Semi-Conservative Fianna Fáil/Fine Gael/SDLP coalition. I am guessing though that this would mean putting some egos in check to manage it.
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#120 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 5,198
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The Fianna Fáil/Fine Gael split was explained to me elsewhere.
They are essentially the same party, policy-wise, but split based on who their grandfathers aligned with a century ago. If they went into coalition it would beg the question of why they stay separrate. Consequently a coalition between them is unlikely. |
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