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Old 15th February 2020, 10:44 AM   #1081
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why is attempting to explore the concept of a deity from a scientific POV so different? Why must we never question whether random forces really exist?
Again I’m not sure why you think a hard no on the existence of gods, means you can’t explore god concepts from a scientific POV. ‘Gods never heal documented amputees’ is one bit of data we have on, well, all possible ideas of gods, for example.

To bring the metaphor home, it’s also fun to postulate on how, scientifically, dragons could evolve, fly, have breath weapons, etc.

As for wondering about random forces, sure, go ahead! It’ll remind me of all the rays the Soviets tried to discover after all the excitement over x-rays and radio (iirc). It’s fun and occasionally might end up pointing in an interesting direction.

Last edited by Lithrael; 15th February 2020 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:22 AM   #1082
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Denial of what, exactly?
Denial of the existence of his undetectable non-interacting god. Just like me.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:58 AM   #1083
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why is attempting to explore the concept of a deity from a scientific POV so different?
"Let's discuss the magic God that exists outside of reality in a scientific way" is the Theist version of a Trumper whining that nobody will have a "Civil Debate" with them about whether or not we should deny people basic rights.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:00 PM   #1084
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Denial of the existence of his undetectable non-interacting god. Just like me.
The magic undetectable non-interacting God that we have to discuss "scientifically." at that.

Also Psion you refuse to discuss the invisible dragon in my garage scientifically either. I wonder why that is. And no I'm not letting that go until you get the point, which seems to be never.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:32 PM   #1085
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Would you ask me what I truly believe if we were discussing magnetic monopoles?

Why is attempting to explore the concept of a deity from a scientific POV so different? Why must we never question whether random forces really exist? Why is the idea that matter/energy or the laws of physics are eternal such a sacrosanct concept?
Absolutely I would. Why wouldn't I?

If you were to posit the existence of magnetic monopoles, I would expect a clear definition of what a magnetic monopole is. (Your belief/claim) Then I would then hope that you could imagine some kind of experiment that would/could prove/disprove their existence.

If you think there was/is a being that created the universe, I would expect exactly the same approach. A clear definition of the being and then hopefully some methodology that while not necessarily proving the deity's existence, but which could disprove its existence.

If science is to be used to explore this question, that at a minimum is required. Otherwise, it is not really science.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:36 PM   #1086
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"I demand we discuss God scientifically!"

"Errr... okay. Where's your evidence for God?"

"I already told you he's magic and lives outside the universe!"
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:01 PM   #1087
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I demand we discuss God scientifically!"

"Errr... okay. Where's your evidence for God?"

"I already told you he's magic and lives outside the universe!"
The ones I love are the explanations that God is spaceless and timeless. He exists outside of space and time. These are nonsensical definitions. So is before time began. Or outside the universe.

These are in fact, not definitions. Telling me what it isn't, is not the same as telling me what it is.
Psion suggests a scientific approach to proving a god yet refuses to clarify what exactly is a god. How do we begin to prove/disprove something if we don't know what it is?
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Last edited by acbytesla; 15th February 2020 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:07 PM   #1088
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why is the idea that matter/energy or the laws of physics are eternal such a sacrosanct concept?
Why are you asking atheists this? The idea is only sacrosanct to god believers that want/need their god to be the only eternal thing. You do realise that an eternal universe would make creator gods redundant?
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:12 PM   #1089
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*Reads the script* Oh by the way we're getting to "Science is just another religion" argument. Should get here within the next 2 or 3 nested arguments.

Again I wish they would just skip straight ahead to full on solipsism and be done with it instead of the coy, passive, step by step lower the bar with every new excuse.
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Old 15th February 2020, 02:30 PM   #1090
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why is attempting to explore the concept of a deity from a scientific POV so different? Why must we never question whether random forces really exist? Why is the idea that matter/energy or the laws of physics are eternal such a sacrosanct concept?
It's not that they're sacrosanct, it's that there is absolutely no methodology to show that anything doesn't apply to these. I cannot say that a god is impossible, but neither can anyone show it is possible. This is why for all practical purposes I can say that leprechauns, fairies, Big foot, invisible dragons and gods do not exist.

It is far more likelihood that I'm going to win the Powerball lottery then that any of these things existing. It may not be a good chance, but the possibility is demonstrably provable.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:27 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What a load of rubbish you post.

The vast majority of Abrahamic God believers believe that God created the universe and that God is invisible.
Exodus 33:20
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:38 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Exodus 33:20
I'm pretty sure there are contradictory verses in the bible. But thanks for the citation. I promise you though, the vast majority of Christians are unaware of this verse.
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:11 PM   #1093
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Exodus 33:20
Genesis 32:22-32 for that matter.
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Old 15th February 2020, 08:31 PM   #1094
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All gods are invisible because no gods actually exist.

This claim has never ever been proven false.
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:01 PM   #1095
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
All gods are invisible because no gods actually exist.

This claim has never ever been proven false.
And yet we can prove many many things that are invisible to our eyes.

Their gods are not only invisible, they are undetectable. And there in lies the problem.

There is no difference between an undetectable god and god that doesn't exist.
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:16 PM   #1096
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And yet we can prove many many things that are invisible to our eyes.

Their gods are not only invisible, they are undetectable. And there in lies the problem.

There is no difference between an undetectable god and god that doesn't exist.
I meant invisible in the totally undetectable sense.

I use unobservable in the same sense
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:41 PM   #1097
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I meant invisible in the totally undetectable sense.
Fair enough.
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:51 PM   #1098
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Absolutely I would. Why wouldn't I?

If you were to posit the existence of magnetic monopoles, I would expect a clear definition of what a magnetic monopole is. (Your belief/claim) Then I would then hope that you could imagine some kind of experiment that would/could prove/disprove their existence.
That's ludicrous!

I don't have to believe or disbelieve in magnetic monopoles in order to discuss their possible existence and the consequences thereof.
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:55 PM   #1099
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You do realise that an eternal universe would make creator gods redundant?
That's been my point all along.

It turns out that according to current scientific theories, the universe has an origin but we don't know the cause of that origin.
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:34 PM   #1100
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's ludicrous!

I don't have to believe or disbelieve in magnetic monopoles in order to discuss their possible existence and the consequences thereof.
Huh? No, it's not. It's the basis for scientific exploration.

If you say that magnetic monopoles exist or could exist, the necessary beginning would be a clear definition as to what is a magnetic monopole. The same applies to any god you posit.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:11 PM   #1101
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's been my point all along.

It turns out that according to current scientific theories, the universe has an origin but we don't know the cause of that origin.
As I understand current scientific theories (at least those I accept) the universe had an origin as in something from something, not something from nothing.

Also as I understand current scientific theories (at least those I accept) "cause" only means as in the natural process of cause and effect, not as in supernatural intelligent cause.

Is that what you also mean by "origin" and "cause"?
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:16 PM   #1102
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's ludicrous!

I don't have to believe or disbelieve in magnetic monopoles in order to discuss their possible existence and the consequences thereof.
How can you discuss their possible existence unless you believe their existence is possible?

How can you believe their existence is possible without some evidence or reason to do so?

Why do you refuse to discuss the possible existence of garage dragons and the consequences thereof?
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:55 PM   #1103
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
If you say that magnetic monopoles exist or could exist, the necessary beginning would be a clear definition as to what is a magnetic monopole.
Why? I only need to include them in Maxwell's Equations.

I only have to become more specific if I purport to have discovered something that satisfies the modified Maxwell's Equations and even then, I am not required to show that this is the only thing that satisfies the equations.
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Old 16th February 2020, 02:32 AM   #1104
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why? I only need to include them in Maxwell's Equations.



I only have to become more specific if I purport to have discovered something that satisfies the modified Maxwell's Equations and even then, I am not required to show that this is the only thing that satisfies the equations.
I look forward to you showing the equations that show pgod could exist.
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Old 16th February 2020, 02:37 AM   #1105
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I look forward to you showing the equations that show pgod could exist.
I am not interested in your invention.
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Old 16th February 2020, 02:58 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I am not interested in your invention.
I look forward to you showing the equations that the god you have been posting about could exist.
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Old 16th February 2020, 03:17 AM   #1107
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I look forward to you showing the equations that the god you have been posting about could exist.
I am not interested in your imagination.
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Old 16th February 2020, 03:40 AM   #1108
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I am not interested in your imagination.
I am not asking you to. I am asking for why we should consider the god you are posting about is a possibility, I take it you do not have any equations that show it is a possibility? If you don't have equations on what are you basing your claim of "possible " on?
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:21 AM   #1109
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am not asking you to. I am asking for why we should consider the god you are posting about is a possibility, I take it you do not have any equations that show it is a possibility? If you don't have equations on what are you basing your claim of "possible " on?
You have been trying to railroad me into creating a god that nobody believes in for more than 20 pages now.

I am not playing.
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:47 AM   #1110
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You have been trying to railroad me into creating a god that nobody believes in for more than 20 pages now.
Jesus goddamn Christ if you really think that's the point here you are beyond hope and reason.

This is the best Jabbaing since Jabba himself.

1. You absolutely are creating a God that nobody actually functionally believes just to keep arguing the point, a God that doesn't do anything or interact with the world in any way. Your caterwauling about "containers" and "outside" is so much rearranging the words.

2. But even that isn't the point. You haven't yet even begun to try to pretend that you will one day perhaps get around to thinking about considering answering the question of why we're looking for an invisible undetectable God that we will have no way of knowing if or if not they are there even when we do find them.

3. Your argumentative style is childish. You made no solid claims only vague excuses and have spent the last 20 pages saying "I already explained that!" to things you never explained.

4. YOU STILL HAVEN'T EXPLAINED TO ME WHY THERE'S NO DRAGON IN MY GARAGE.
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:55 AM   #1111
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You have been trying to railroad me into creating a god that nobody believes in for more than 20 pages now.



I am not playing.
Yet I am now clearly asking about the god you have been posting about.

Again for the god you have been posting about (note I am not asking for you to further define that god) all I am asking for is the reason you have for why we should consider it a possibility.
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:59 AM   #1112
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Psion: *Whine* "But I'm not talking about that God..."

Literally Everybody Else: "Fine. Give us some reason to believe, or indeed even be looking for any God."

Psion: "No I'd rather keep whining about what argument you think I'm using."
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:06 AM   #1113
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
How can you discuss their possible existence unless you believe their existence is possible?
In a sandbox; hypothetically. That part I don’t find problematic. Pretty unproductive though when it comes to gods. The speculation’s all been done.


Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Why do you refuse to discuss the possible existence of garage dragons and the consequences thereof?
Aye, now there’s the rub.
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Old 16th February 2020, 08:10 AM   #1114
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet I am now clearly asking about the god you have been posting about.
It doesn't matter which god. You are arguing that ALL gods don't exist.
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Old 16th February 2020, 09:11 AM   #1115
abaddon
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It doesn't matter which god. You are arguing that ALL gods don't exist.
None of the thousands of claimed deities has been demonstrated to exist.
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Old 16th February 2020, 09:23 AM   #1116
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why is attempting to explore the concept of a deity from a scientific POV so different?
It shouldn't be. The science is clear. Supernatural things don't exist, by definition. Therefore anything that is defined as supernatural is (from a scientific POV) a fiction. That includes deities. So exploring the concept of a deity from a scientific POV is very simple. Is it a deity? Yes - then it doesn't exist, end of exploration!


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Why must we never question whether random forces really exist? Why is the idea that matter/energy or the laws of physics are eternal such a sacrosanct concept?
Things that appear to be random certainly exist. They will remain 'random' until/unless we find evidence that they are not. Matter/energy may be eternal, but the laws of physics clearly are not since they change as we gain more knowledge and understanding.

The only thing 'sacrosanct' about the laws of physics is the amount of evidence we have to support them. We have evidence that they have existed for billions of years, and will continue to do so for billions more. We have no credible evidence for 'gods' during that period. Before the Big Bang? After the heat death of the Universe? We don't know - yet. But the concept of a god that most religions have is known to be false because it contradicts the evidence.

As for the concept of a god which exists but does not interact with the World and can never be detected - that's just silly. Not because it's inconceivable, but such a notion has no scientific use.
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Old 16th February 2020, 09:42 AM   #1117
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It doesn't matter which god. You are arguing that ALL gods don't exist.
And you're arguing that no dragons live in my garage.

"Prove every possible variation of the thing I refuse to define doesn't exist" is not how reality works.

Yes. Nothing that could be intellectually honestly be called "God" exists, same as nothing that could intellectually honestly be called a dragon lives in my garage. A dozen people have spent as many pages explaining to you why that's a perfectly valid stance to take.

Define your God without using special pleadings, show evidence that his existence is a reasonable hypothesis to argue, show some method we could determine if that hypothesis is true or not, or shut up.
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Old 16th February 2020, 09:57 AM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
So exploring the concept of a deity from a scientific POV is very simple. Is it a deity? Yes - then it doesn't exist, end of exploration!
In spite of the fact that we "know it all", we have very little verifiable information about the universe long ago. We just have a few crude mathematical models competing with each other.

From that POV we can't rule out anything out and that includes deities or other forms of intelligence. If we learn anything more about the origins of the universe then it is likely to be very different to how we perceive it today.


Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
As for the concept of a god which exists but does not interact with the World and can never be detected - that's just silly. Not because it's inconceivable, but such a notion has no scientific use.
Yes, from a scientific POV, we would have to assume that apples aren't going to suddenly fall upwards as there is no scientific way to deal with that. However, this goes to the current motivations and actions of a deity which is definitely not something that science is equipped to deal with.
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Old 16th February 2020, 09:59 AM   #1119
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"We don't know everything, therefore maybe God" is a bad argument, no matter how many times you repeat it and add words to it.

And stop demanding we discuss God "scientifically" out of one side of your mouth and "But God is made of magic so science won't work on him" out of the other.

Your entire argument is that we don't know absolutely everything, therefore there might be a magic God that science can't detect. It's stupid.
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
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Old 16th February 2020, 10:02 AM   #1120
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Oh and also the invisible dragon in my garage is magic and science can't see it either.

Why won't you talk about it? Why Psion? Why are you so mean and strident and think you know everything? Why won't you admit an invisible dragon might live in my garage?
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