Merged 2019-nCoV / Corona virus

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99 new cases on Diamond Princess. Why isn't Japan simply putting everyone in hospital ? They will end up there like this anyway.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...hina-wuhan-hubei-cases-death-toll-latest-news

There's a very important piece of the puzzle contained in that news, referring to cases on the ship:


This gives some certainty to the idea that most cases are very mild or asymptomatic. It also gives a fair bit of certainty to airborne transmission and ease of infection.

That will mean that in the next week or so we'll see the more severe cases springing up all over the place to match the spread that's already happening.
 
Is there a chance that this thing had already hit hawaii pretty wide about 1.5 months ago, maybe a little earlier?

We still as far as I know dont have test kits here. Ours were delivered to another state and then mishandled when they were resent and were not functional. The first few that reach here will most likely be stolen so it may be a while before we're up to date in that regard.

The reason I ask is right after xmass, we had a lot lot lot lot of cancellations and something we rarely see from the schools in notes telling kids to stay home if they were at all sick. Nobody was really talking about the corona virus, it was a bad cold type of thing which went away after a week or so leaving a persistent dry cough that lasts for weeks. They thought it was pertussis at first but didn't seem to be.

I wonder if there's a way to see health records, but I know personally, people who never never go to the doctor who were going since xmass
 
Is there a chance that this thing had already hit hawaii pretty wide about 1.5 months ago, maybe a little earlier?

Almost certainly not. We'd have seen more cases worldwide far earlier if it had made it to Hawaii that fast.

Nobody was really talking about the corona virus, it was a bad cold type of thing which went away after a week or so leaving a persistent dry cough that lasts for weeks. They thought it was pertussis at first but didn't seem to be.

Sounds like a typical winter virus rather than Covid-19, which goes the other way - starts with a dry cough that can later turn into pneumonia.
 
I would say because for the conformable class the lives of the people who do their work are rarely of concern and never in the forefront of their minds. Not one of the reports I read until recently mentioned any crew, it was all about passengers being put out.

One article I read this morning said cruise ships are a risk because of their conditions and didn't make a single reference to the problems with the crew.
 
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There's a very important piece of the puzzle contained in that news, referring to cases on the ship:



This gives some certainty to the idea that most cases are very mild or asymptomatic. It also gives a fair bit of certainty to airborne transmission and ease of infection.

That will mean that in the next week or so we'll see the more severe cases springing up all over the place to match the spread that's already happening.

That's not evidence of airborne until they rule out ongoing transmission among and from the crew. Unless there's a pattern of cases in rooms with connected ventilation. It's frustrating not having important details. I would have thought local experts were on it, but not after hearing the crew complaints.


A couple of things are possible. Could be all the culturing is finding cases earlier than symptoms appear. And/or more asymptomatic and mild cases are going unnoticed and spreading the virus.

And we can't rule out false positives. There seems to be a number of problems with testing.
 
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Is there a chance that this thing had already hit hawaii pretty wide about 1.5 months ago, maybe a little earlier?

We still as far as I know dont have test kits here. Ours were delivered to another state and then mishandled when they were resent and were not functional. The first few that reach here will most likely be stolen so it may be a while before we're up to date in that regard.

The reason I ask is right after xmass, we had a lot lot lot lot of cancellations and something we rarely see from the schools in notes telling kids to stay home if they were at all sick. Nobody was really talking about the corona virus, it was a bad cold type of thing which went away after a week or so leaving a persistent dry cough that lasts for weeks. They thought it was pertussis at first but didn't seem to be.

I wonder if there's a way to see health records, but I know personally, people who never never go to the doctor who were going since xmass
Much more likely that was influenza or something else.

If it was CoVID-19 it probably would have presented with an outbreak of pneumonia and an unusual increase in ED visits.
 
That's not evidence of airborne until they rule out ongoing transmission among and from the crew. Unless there's a pattern of cases in rooms with connected ventilation. It's frustrating not having important details. I would have thought local experts were on it, but not after hearing the crew complaints.

Yeah, Japan appears to have handled this with all the aplomb China showed at the start, and they at least had the excuse of it being new.

I hope all the people who criticised China give Japan the same treatment.

A couple of things are possible. Could be all the culturing is finding cases earlier than symptoms appear. And/or more asymptomatic and mild cases are going unnoticed and spreading the virus.

And we can't rule out false positives. There seems to be a number of problems with testing.

Yes to all the above, although I doubt the false positives are sufficient to account for the increasing numbers on the ship. One or two, sure - 300, not likely.
____________________________

Applying maths with a little more information now, I get the following:

60% of the population catch it (4.5bn), of which 70% are asymptomatic or very mild. That leaves 1.35 billion people who will know they've caught something, and going by data to date, 10-15% of those cases will be severe enough to require hospital treatment.*

That's between 130 and 200 million people, and 5% of them will die - 6-10 million. All of that is going to put strain on every sector of society, particularly the health sector, which will come close to breaking point, and will break in many places. Intensive care will be overwhelmed everywhere the virus gets to.

One of the antivirals being tested working is the best hope we have for avoiding that level of harm.

*The cruise ship percentage is a lot higher, but I'm presuming a much higher median age than ordinary populations, and older people are definitely the front line for trouble.
 
Yeah, Japan appears to have handled this with all the aplomb China showed at the start, and they at least had the excuse of it being new.

I hope all the people who criticised China give Japan the same treatment.

.

In terms of competency, Japan’s official handling of this situation deserves some criticism, and I have already done so such as with the failure to quarantine or test all those returning on charter flights from Wuhan, with some of the expatriated passengers adamantly refusing to be tested and returning home with the request that they stay home for two weeks.

But some of the criticism of China is different from the criticism that Japan should have, and the reason is obvious. The concerns are that China actively suppressed information that could have been useful, and that they continue to suppress information, arresting those who have been critical of the government and journalists covering the spread of the virus. The law enforcement has also been at the other end of the scale with draconian police tactics against those not wearing face masks outside of the home. And it goes without saying (or should do) that in that kind of environment, everything that China chooses to say about the situation should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
I'm not understanding the cruise ship thing.

Wasn't it a given that FOR SURE 100% of those onboard would be exposed? No way around it?

Why were they stuck in that incubator? Wasn't that THE perfect case to run a test of how they could contain things, early on where they could control the variables? There was nowhere to stick them but leave them on the ship sharing all the same air in a small confined space?

Has anyone from that ship died yet?

If not why not?

Have 5% of them died? If not, why not?
 
I'm not understanding the cruise ship thing.

Wasn't it a given that FOR SURE 100% of those onboard would be exposed? No way around it?

Why were they stuck in that incubator? Wasn't that THE perfect case to run a test of how they could contain things, early on where they could control the variables? There was nowhere to stick them but leave them on the ship sharing all the same air in a small confined space?

Has anyone from that ship died yet?

If not why not?

Have 5% of them died? If not, why not?

Well I guess the issue is it's not Japanese ship. It's not Japanese problem. The helped people who had problems. And that's it.
Nobody from the ship died yet, and for what little we know, it usually takes 2-3 weeks to die after developing symptoms. So it's too early to tell.
Also very few people outside Chine died. I think it's mainly because outside China they get much better care, simply because there is lot less cases outside China.
 
I'm not understanding the cruise ship thing.

Wasn't it a given that FOR SURE 100% of those onboard would be exposed? No way around it?
It's not clear who had been exposed. But they were quarantined because one couldn't tell who was and who wasn't.

In the meantime ongoing exposures have occurred, still not clear how but the most likely source are crew members.

Has anyone from that ship died yet?
Not that I can find reported.

Have 5% of them died? If not, why not?
Because that is not the case fatality rate. People keep playing with the numbers as if they are determining useful information. It's unreliable, even official numbers are only showing fatality rates among the sickest and hospitalized patients.
 
It's not clear who had been exposed. But they were quarantined because one couldn't tell who was and who wasn't.

In the meantime ongoing exposures have occurred, still not clear how but the most likely source are crew members.

I dont get it. A tin can where everyone shares the same air, is there a question whether they would all get exposed or not? And I'm using the word "exposed" specifically here.
 
I dont get it. A tin can where everyone shares the same air, is there a question whether they would all get exposed or not? And I'm using the word "exposed" specifically here.

Until we know how the virus is being transmitted it can't be known who has or has not been exposed.

Then if it is airborne, at what concentration is it spread? The people within 10 feet of the source person? The cabins closest to the crew quarters? The air circulation on level 2 but not level 1?

There are lots of reasons everyone onboard hasn't had equal opportunity exposures.
 
At this point, it wouldn’t surprise me if almost everyone on that cruise ship ends up testing positive.
At the best of times cruise ships are floating petri dishes.

For fear of spreading norovirus, one of the first things you are told to do when coming on board is,

"Do not shake hands. With anybody."
 
The cruise ship in Japan really mystifies me! Didn’t the private and government people in charge bring in trained epidemiologists as consultants? How could they have done the attempted quarantine so badly? There are some universal basics that appear to have been ignored.
 
More than 80% of patients have mild disease and will recover, 14% have severe disease including pneumonia and shortness of breath, 5% have critical disease including respiratory failure, septic shock and multi-organ failure, and 2% of cases are fatal,. The risk of death increases the older you are.

Coronavirus live updates: China deaths rise by 98 amid Cambodia ship concerns – latest news

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...t-news?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
 
I think they're overstating the serious cases by a factor of 10. A 2% death rate would mean at least 90 million dead and I don't see the numbers showing that in any way.


The cruise liners don't support that, although the age distribution may be skewed to having less elderly people and more younger people.
 
Fukushima staff could use raincoats as coronavirus threatens gear production

TOKYO (AFP) - Workers at Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear plant may need to wear plastic raincoats as the coronavirus outbreak threatens production of protective suits in China, the operator warned on Tuesday (Feb 18).

Staff cleaning up the plant wear special plastic overcoats to prevent radioactive dust settling on clothes or the body and the TEPCO operator gets through 6,000 per day.

But a TEPCO spokesman told AFP "we could have difficulties getting certain specific items from our usual suppliers" because of the COVID-19 outbreak.
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/e...oats-as-coronavirus-threatens-gear-production

They use 6,000 per day?

:jaw-dropp
 
The cruise liners don't support that, although the age distribution may be skewed to having less elderly people and more younger people.

Nope, it's still the opposite for cruisers, which have a median passenger age of 46 against the world median of 30.

The cruise passengers are being identified as infected very early in the piece, so the numbers there aren't reliable yet anyway.
 
Our media is trying to use 'anti chinese racism" from the corona virus to explain why our downtown has been trashed and encamped by record numbers of homeless for the last five years. So you guys just need to know that hawaii has had this corona virus for five years and we all knew about it, so all of us chinese hate the chinese

or something.

They forgot they had much the same pictures and video last year before all of this https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/...mages-new-chinatown-website-aim-spark-change/
 
Our media is trying to use 'anti chinese racism" from the corona virus to explain why our downtown has been trashed and encamped by record numbers of homeless for the last five years. So you guys just need to know that hawaii has had this corona virus for five years and we all knew about it, so all of us chinese hate the chinese

or something.

I have no idea about Hawaii, but there isn't any doubt Covid-19 has been used as an excuse for racist actions right across the world.

Even in NZ, with zero cases, we've had a Chinese doctor abused on a bus and told to "go home", and Real Kiwi parents targeting Asian parents telling them keep their "filthy" bodies out of our schools.
 
They're quite rightly concerned about the looming spectre of millions of deaths worldwide due to inadequate quarantining. Drastic times call for drastic measures. That's not racism, it's just common sense in extreme conditions.
Wow. If one actually reads the article your description of these incredibly racist and nasty actions as "common sense' reaches the level of strongly disgusting. Please note that I am not describing you as disgusting. I don't know you, and I suspect that you often post just for the "fun" of raising up a debate. I do not like entering into artificial arguments but in this case I had to respond. But I am attacking the post and not the poster.
 
I have no idea about Hawaii, but there isn't any doubt Covid-19 has been used as an excuse for racist actions right across the world.

We're all chinese here. And have articles going back years showing how trashed downtown has gotten, including the one linked there
 
Seattle will now begin testing people for COVID-19 if they come in a clinic with flu-like symptoms and tests for flu are negative.
 
I would say because for the conformable class the lives of the people who do their work are rarely of concern and never in the forefront of their minds. Not one of the reports I read until recently mentioned any crew, it was all about passengers being put out.

The cruise industry has a long tradition of covering up any illness (or misbehavior) among the crew. Norvirus outbreaks on ships are frequent, but somehow never affect the crew.
 
From ProMed today (multiple reports):

https://promedmail.org/promed-post/?id=6999424
COVID-19 seems to have different epidemiological characteristics from SARS-CoV. COVID-19 replicates efficiently in the upper respiratory tract and appears to cause less abrupt onset of symptoms, similar to conventional human coronaviruses that are a major cause of common colds in the winter season (8). Infected individuals produce a large quantity of virus in the upper respiratory tract during a prodrome period, are mobile, and carry on usual activities, contributing to the spread of infection. By contrast, transmission of SARS-CoV did not readily occur during the prodromal period when those infected were mildly ill, and most transmission is thought to have occurred when infected individuals presented with severe illness, thus possibly making it easier to contain the outbreaks SARS-CoV caused, unlike the current outbreaks with COVID-19 (6).

COVID-19 also has affinity for cells in the lower respiratory tract and can replicate there, causing radiological evidence of lower respiratory tract lesions in patients who do not present with clinical pneumonia (8). There seem to be 3 major patterns of the clinical course of infection: mild illness with upper respiratory tract presenting symptoms; non-life-threatening pneumonia; and severe pneumonia with acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) that begins with mild symptoms for 7-8 days and then progresses to rapid deterioration and ARDS requiring advanced life support (WHO EDCARN clinical telephone conference on COVID-19, personal communication with Myoung-don Oh [Seoul National University Hospital] and Yinzhong Shen [Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center]).


And one can post all the tentative fatality rates one wants but:
The actual case fatality ratio of infection with COVID-19 will eventually be based on all clinical illness and at the time of writing information on subclinical infection is not available and awaits the development of serological tests and serosurveys.

A study of a large study of all confirmed cases of COVID-2 reported to the Chinese National Health Information System as of 11 Feb 2020, found among other things:
Conclusions
COVID-19 epidemic has spread very quickly taking only 30 days to expand from Hubei to the rest of Mainland China. With many people returning from a long holiday, China needs to prepare for the possible rebound of the epidemic. ...

A sobering set of analyses in the baseline characteristics of the cases was the age specific case fatality rates (CFR). The overall CFR among the 72 000+ cases analyzed was 2.3 %. In the 0-9 years the CFR was 0 as no deaths were reported out of 416 cases; in the 10-19 years, 20-29 years and 30-39 years age groups the CFR was 0.2%. In the 40-49 years, the CFR was 0.4%, the 50-59 years 1.3 %, 60-69 years 3.6 %, 70-79% 8.0% and the 80 years or older 14.8%.

CFRs by type of co-morbidities: cardiovascular disease 10.5%, diabetes 7.3%, chronic respiratory disease 6.3%, hypertension 6.0%, cancer 5.6%, and none 2.6%


Re the cruise ship in Japan:
That would take the total number of positive cases on the Diamond Princess to 454.
 
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