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Old 21st February 2020, 12:29 PM   #1
Pterodactyl
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Detailed Account of Fatal Grizzly Attack

Absolutely brutal.

This story is a bit dated, but recent and harrowing enough of an account that I think many here would find it interesting.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...01f75343d.html

A LOT went wrong here, including a good guy with a gun who didn't know how to use it. Florida man. etc.



Quote:
Hunter conflicts with grizzly bears in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, and the Teton Wilderness specifically, are routine — there are dozens of encounters annually, including many caused by carcasses. But according to bear conflict expert Steve Primm, the Uptain fatality marks the first time an attacking grizzly in North America has been doused with bear spray but killed a person anyway.
Quote:
but the “chief injuries” incurred in the fight for his life were to upper thighs on both legs, which had been deeply torn and ripped and endured “massive blood loss.” A “crushing wound” impacted the hunting guide’s forehead, exposing bone and cartilage, and his scalp had been peeled off from his forehead to his neck, though his skull in the exposed area was intact.
Discuss!
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:37 PM   #2
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dems da breaks
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Old 21st February 2020, 12:42 PM   #3
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Hugh Glass says hi...….

He was the Mountain Man who was badly mauled by a Grizzly in the 1820's, left for dead, and managed to make an incredible trek across what is now Montana and Wyoming..then a wilderness..to safety.
The recent film "The Revenent" is a heavily fictionized version of Hugh Glass's story.
Though a lot of it historical nonsense, the actual attack and fight with the Grizzly is very accurate.
The 1970 Richard Harris film "Man In The Wilderness" is another fictionlzed version of GLass (though they give him another name). In many ways, it's more accurate then
The Revenent.
And the attack described takes place in roughly the same Area where Glass was attacked. It's still some pretty wild country.
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Last edited by dudalb; 21st February 2020 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 02:11 PM   #4
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Have to admit I had never actually heard of bear spray.

Probably because we have no bears.

Wiki'ing it, I wouldn't want some nutter using it in a crowd.

Sounds very effective normally for its actual use though.
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Old 21st February 2020, 02:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
though his skull in the exposed area was intact.
So not all bad!
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:26 PM   #6
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Bear "incidents" are not as rare as most people like to think. Most people in the interior of the province in Canada that I live in - British Columbia - use the shoot, shovel, and shut up philosophy. In other words - the two times in my life that I have had to use a firearm to stop an attacking bear were not reported to anyone. It is not worth the associated problems. Usually, only the cases where injuries or death occur are reported to the authorities. Large amounts of anecdotal evidence makes me believe that this is true in other parts of Canada as well.

If people can get their hands on any of the late Gary Shelton's books they will find them not only a very good read - but very enlightening as well.

https://www.amazon.ca/encounter-surv...Z134H6V8CGT9VV
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:32 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Bear "incidents" are not as rare as most people like to think. Most people in the interior of the province in Canada that I live in - British Columbia - use the shoot, shovel, and shut up philosophy. In other words - the two times in my life that I have had to use a firearm to stop an attacking bear were not reported to anyone. It is not worth the associated problems. Usually, only the cases where injuries or death occur are reported to the authorities. Large amounts of anecdotal evidence makes me believe that this is true in other parts of Canada as well.

If people can get their hands on any of the late Gary Shelton's books they will find them not only a very good read - but very enlightening as well.

https://www.amazon.ca/encounter-surv...Z134H6V8CGT9VV
Which kind of bear?
The Grizzly, to your average black and brown bears, is like the Hulk compared to an average human.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:34 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which kind of bear?
The Grizzly, to your average black and brown bears, is like the Hulk compared to an average human.
The grizzly is a brown bear.
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Old 21st February 2020, 03:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The grizzly is a brown bear.
Well technically, the grizzly is a subspecies brown bear, so yes, a grizzly is a brown, but a brown is not necessarily a grizzly.

Both are bigger than black bears


Fun fact: Black bears are not always black - they are observed in a range of colours - black, blond, blue-grey, brown, cinnamon, and white)
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:07 PM   #10
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Why would the guide remove his weapon at the exact time he would be most likely to need it?
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Why would the guide remove his weapon at the exact time he would be most likely to need it?
Fatigue, inattentiveness, laziness, complacency, maybe some combination of those. Who knows?

I found myself being frustrated at the Florida hunter for failing to bail the guide out, but on reflection, the guide's job is to see his sports through the hunt, and should be prepared for circumstances such as these.
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Old 21st February 2020, 04:24 PM   #12
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The bear that killed the guide was a 250 pound female which is pretty small.
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Old 21st February 2020, 05:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The bear that killed the guide was a 250 pound female which is pretty small.
large enough, I'd think.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which kind of bear?
The Grizzly, to your average black and brown bears, is like the Hulk compared to an average human.
The two bears I had serious problems with were black bears.
One situation involved an accidental meeting on a windy day near where a creek came out of a culvert. The bear could not hear my bear bells and could not smell me. We met when he came up out of the creek/foliage and onto the trail less than 20 feet away. I do feel bad about this situation because I have had a large number of bear encounters (mostly black - but some grizzly) and - given the chance - the bear usually moves off. Unfortunately, I was well within his comfort space or "fight or flight" space and he charged.

The second situation was a true predatory stalk/attack by a black bear. I was aware of the bear following me for more than a km. He would get within about 50 ft and my shouts or thrown rocks would make him move back or stop for a while. After about an hour of this game of cat and mouse - he made his move when I was crossing through a large blowdown area of bug-killed pine. Obviously to him - the advantage was now his as I was having to climb up and over the criss-crossed logs.

Edit: The first bear was weighed on our cattle scale and found to be 428 lbs. The second bear was about 300 lbs. Both were males.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 21st February 2020 at 06:11 PM. Reason: see note
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
The Grizzly, to your average black and brown bears, is like the Hulk compared to an average human.
This. A grizzly is huge, and it's hard to really appreciate just how big one is 'til you see it for yourself. Suddenly it's apparent they really can just peel open a car like a tin can.

A polar bear is even bigger. I've only seen a stuffed version, and I honestly didn't believe it was real at first.

Altogether the wrong size for a predatory creature.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:19 PM   #16
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Obligatory mention of Timothy Treadwell for balance in thread that already contains brown bear death and Hugh Glass.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well technically, the grizzly is a subspecies brown bear, so yes, a grizzly is a brown, but a brown is not necessarily a grizzly.

Both are bigger than black bears


Fun fact: Black bears are not always black - they are observed in a range of colours - black, blond, blue-grey, brown, cinnamon, and white)
In the US "brown bear" almost always means a specific breed of bear that happens to be brown, not all bears that have brown fur.
And the Brown bears breed is MUCH smaller then the Griz.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:23 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
Obligatory mention of Timothy Treadwell for balance in thread that already contains brown bear death and Hugh Glass.
And one more obligatory reference

"Can you skin Griz, pilgrim?".
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Absolutely brutal.
Very brutal indeed.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
A LOT went wrong here, including a good guy with a gun who didn't know how to use it. Florida man. etc.
Why the "good guy with a gun" trope?

The article says the 10mm pistol belonged to the guide who was killed, not the hunter who used the crossbow. In my opinion a 10mm pistol is poor defense against a brown bear. A 44 magnum would probably be okay but never as good as a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs or a 338 caliber rifle.

I suppose the guide was carrying the 4-5 pound pistol as he was not intending to hunt the day they were retrieving the elk?

The only bears I've encountered were black bears, in MN, and never while armed. We both departed in opposite directions

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 21st February 2020 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:27 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Very brutal indeed.


Why the "good guy with a gun" trope?

The article says the 10mm pistol belonged to the guide who was killed, not the hunter who used the crossbow. In my opinion a 10mm pistol is poor defense against a brown bear. A 44 magnum would probably be okay but never as good as a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs or a 338 caliber rifle.

I suppose the guide was carrying the 4-5 pound pistol as he was not intending to hunt the day they were retrieving the elk?

Ranb

I wonder where my .50 Caliber Hawken would fit in?
If I miss and have to reload against a Griz I am in BIG trouble.
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Last edited by dudalb; 21st February 2020 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
This. A grizzly is huge, and it's hard to really appreciate just how big one is 'til you see it for yourself. Suddenly it's apparent they really can just peel open a car like a tin can.

A polar bear is even bigger. I've only seen a stuffed version, and I honestly didn't believe it was real at first.

Altogether the wrong size for a predatory creature.
The Size of the Grizzly is one of the things that "The Revenent " got right.'
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And one more obligatory reference

"Can you skin Griz, pilgrim?".
"Skin that one, pilgrim, and I'll get you another!"

Haven't seen that movie in forever.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wonder where my .50 Caliber Hawken would fit in?
If I miss and have to reload against a Griz I am in BIG trouble.
Overkill.

But can you carry it 'round the woods with you day after day and still wield it effectively if you're suddenly threatened?
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In the US "brown bear" almost always means a specific breed of bear that happens to be brown, not all bears that have brown fur.
And the Brown bears breed is MUCH smaller then the Griz.
I think your local terminology might be confusing the issue. The following post by smartcooky is accurate:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well technically, the grizzly is a subspecies brown bear, so yes, a grizzly is a brown, but a brown is not necessarily a grizzly.

Both are bigger than black bears


Fun fact: Black bears are not always black - they are observed in a range of colours - black, blond, blue-grey, brown, cinnamon, and white)
edited to add: Bear size is far more a consequence of location and availability of food rather than species. Coastal bears of both species are far larger than their interior counterparts.
Brown bears (grizzly) in the interior of BC are often smaller than coastal black bears and nothing is larger than the Kodiak Brown Bear.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 21st February 2020 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wonder where my .50 Caliber Hawken would fit in?
If I miss and have to reload against a Griz I am in BIG trouble.
Well, a 350 grain Maxi-ball and 100 grains of ffg should give you about 1500 fps and 1800 ft-lbs. By comparison a standard .308 Win will give you about 2500 ft-lbs. The wider 50 cal bullet is much more effective at lower velocities though.

I'd feel safer with a .54 caliber black powder rifle. If I ever hunt dangerous game with a muzzle loaded rifle, I'm going to bring a back-up revolver or a better armed friend.
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Old 21st February 2020, 06:48 PM   #26
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In the US, the grizzly generally refers to the inland brown bear population while the coastal populations are simply called brown bear. Sometimes all North American brown bears are referred to as grizzlies. The coastal populations average larger than the inland ones with the population of Kodiak Island being the largest, rivaling polar bears.
I see someone already beat me to this.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Well, a 350 grain Maxi-ball and 100 grains of ffg should give you about 1500 fps and 1800 ft-lbs. By comparison a standard .308 Win will give you about 2500 ft-lbs. The wider 50 cal bullet is much more effective at lower velocities though.

I'd feel safer with a .54 caliber black powder rifle. If I ever hunt dangerous game with a muzzle loaded rifle, I'm going to bring a back-up revolver or a better armed friend.
Not quibbling with your numbers as they are bang on, but a short barrelled 12 ga. shotgun loaded with slugs is by far the best self defence firearm in bear country, IMHO.
I used one in my own self defence situations as described above and in the dispatching of well over 20 "problem" bears as a police officer. Devastating knockdown power at distances within 15 yds.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
.... but a short barrelled 12 ga. shotgun loaded with slugs is by far the best self defence firearm in bear country, IMHO. ....
I agree. I mentioned my preference for a 12 gauge in post #19 above. I've never used a slug on a mammal, but I believe the claims I've heard about them being efective.

How short was the barrel on your 12 gauge? Actual SBS or 18".
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Very brutal indeed.


Why the "good guy with a gun" trope?

The article says the 10mm pistol belonged to the guide who was killed, not the hunter who used the crossbow. In my opinion a 10mm pistol is poor defense against a brown bear. A 44 magnum would probably be okay but never as good as a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs or a 338 caliber rifle.

I suppose the guide was carrying the 4-5 pound pistol as he was not intending to hunt the day they were retrieving the elk?

The only bears I've encountered were black bears, in MN, and never while armed. We both departed in opposite directions

Ranb

My good friend's son killed a grizzly bear with his .40 cal pistol while it was standing on top of him chewing on his left arm and hand. Matt was doing his job as a Conservation Officer in BC tracking a problem Grizzly which is why he was able to go to a sidearm after he dropped his rifle when the bear nailed him. Canadian hunters are not allowed to carry sidearms while hunting. If Matt was not a peace officer and allowed to carry a sidearm - things would have probably gone a lot worse.
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"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by rockinkt; 21st February 2020 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:15 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
If I ever hunt dangerous game with a muzzle loaded rifle, I'm going to bring a back-up revolver or a better armed friend.
Nope, just bring a slower friend.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:16 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
My good friend's son killed a grizzly bear with his .40 cal pistol while it was standing on top of him chewing on his left arm and hand. ....
Was the 40 cal pistol intended as backup for bears or was it just the usual issue handgun?
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Nope, just bring a slower friend.
I have a fused ankle; and no slower friends.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:24 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I have a fused ankle; and no slower friends.
Well then, unless you have the drop, you're ******.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I agree. I mentioned my preference for a 12 gauge in post #19 above. I've never used a slug on a mammal, but I believe the claims I've heard about them being efective.

How short was the barrel on your 12 gauge? Actual SBS or 18".
Sorry, I missed your post.

My personal bear country firearm is a Win. 1300 with a folding stock, 18 1/2" bbl. and extended magazine.
The standard RCMP issue shotgun was a Rem. 870 also with a 18 1/2" bbl but limited to 3 rd magazine. It was normally loaded with 2 3/4" SSG (.27" dia pellets) but those of us with experience in bear country always carried our own supply of slugs.
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Was the 40 cal pistol intended as backup for bears or was it just the usual issue handgun?

Conservation Officers (Game Wardens) in British Columbia are peace officers with full police powers. Sidearms are carried as part of standard equipment.
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:49 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Well then, unless you have the drop, you're ******.
I prefer to think of it as "I can't retreat so I must fight".

ETA; See my avatar? That is me shooting a FWB 300S precision air rifle. The off-hand, sitting, kneeling and prone positions have at least one thing in common. Stay still!

Last edited by Ranb; 21st February 2020 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 07:56 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I prefer to think of it as "I can't retreat so I must fight".
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 21st February 2020, 09:38 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Absolutely brutal.

This story is a bit dated, but recent and harrowing enough of an account that I think many here would find it interesting.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...01f75343d.html

A LOT went wrong here, including a good guy with a gun who didn't know how to use it. Florida man. etc.

Discuss!

I note this from the story:
Quote:
]“Evidence suggests that when Uptain deployed the bear spray, it stopped the aggression, giving him time to escape,” Game and Fish investigators detailed in a just-released report. “However, this appears to be after the fatal injuries were inflicted.”
So the bear spray didn't fail, it was just used too late.

I also note this:
Quote:
Chubon’s bear spray was left in his pack because it had “become cumbersome carrying it on the horse,” he told investigators.
Kind of pointless to carry a weapon you can't reach. But it sounds like the bear spray didn't fail.
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Old 21st February 2020, 09:42 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
.....
Wiki'ing it, I wouldn't want some nutter using it in a crowd.

Sounds very effective normally for its actual use though.
In the U.S. the nutters use AR15s. Bear spray would be far preferable.
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Old 21st February 2020, 10:35 PM   #40
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I've met Mark. I had no idea he was dead and had died in such a horrible way.
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