Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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BobTheCoward said:
Then let me me clarify.

Having sex with a social transitioned woman is not like having sex with a male. Some it will, some it won't.

As a matter of reality, having sex with a woman is not like how you would have sex with all women.
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Just for clarity, give me a couple of examples of how I could tell if the person I am having sex with is a socially transitioned woman or not.
 
Elagabalus said:
You never googled futanari, did you?*

*Put your browser in private mode. NSFW etc.
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Haha! The Japanese certainly have a few strange fetishes.

Excellent advice on the NSFW. Or almost anywhere else.
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Meanwhile, a good take on transwomen in strength sports as Laurel Hubbard is on the verge of qualifying for the Olympics. https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opini...nclude-trans-weight-lifter-in-womens-category

Utterly absurd. It certainly makes me hope for them to be called off.

I think Japan has had a cancellation in the past...
 
Detransitioning stories

Thought about starting a new thread to discuss this, but I'll just put it here.

Came across this rather long story via the BBC about two young women in a relationship. Both went through a period of identifying as trans men, and taking hormones, etc. It didn't really 'work' for either of them though.

Ellie and Nele: From she to he - and back to she again

Nele could see only two options - transition or suicide. She sought help from a transgender support organisation. They sent her to a therapist.

"When I arrived, I was like, 'Yeah, I think I might be trans.' And he directly used male pronouns for me. He said it was so clear I'm transgender - that he's never been as sure with anyone else."

Within three months, Nele was prescribed testosterone.

Ellie too became determined to access male hormones - in her case when she was just 16.

"I watched some YouTube videos of trans guys who take testosterone, and they go from this shy lesbian to a handsome guy who is super-popular. I liked thinking of myself having that possibility - it felt like I should have a male body."

But being so young, she needed parental approval for any medical intervention. The first doctor she visited with her parents said Ellie should wait - she thought that was transphobic and found another medic who was positive about her desire to transition.

"He told my parents that all the effects were reversible - which is the biggest lie. I had done my research, and I knew that this doctor could not be trusted. But I was just so happy that he said that, because then my parents were OK with it."
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There's also this case in the UK:
NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition
She was referred to the Tavistock GIDS clinic at the age of 16. She said after three one-hour-long appointments she was prescribed puberty blockers, which delay the development of signs of puberty, like periods or facial hair.

She felt there wasn't enough investigation or therapy before she reached that stage.

"I should have been challenged on the proposals or the claims that I was making for myself," she said. "And I think that would have made a big difference as well. If I was just challenged on the things I was saying."

A year after starting the puberty-blockers she said she was prescribed the male hormone testosterone, which developed male characteristics like facial hair and a deep voice. Three years ago, she had an operation to remove her breasts.

"Initially I felt very relieved and happy about things, but I think as the years go on you start to feel less and less enthusiastic or even happy about things.

"You can continue and dig yourself deeper into this hole or you can choose to come out of it and have the weight lifted off your shoulders."
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BobTheCoward said:
What were you talking about?
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The act of sex.

Look, if you lose track of a conversation, that's fine. Nobody has an obligation to continue a discussion they are no longer interested in. But if that's the case, then drop it completely. If you want to continue it, then you do have an obligation to actually know what that conversation is about.
 
Ziggurat said:
The act of sex.

Look, if you lose track of a conversation, that's fine. Nobody has an obligation to continue a discussion they are no longer interested in. But if that's the case, then drop it completely. If you want to continue it, then you do have an obligation to actually know what that conversation is about.
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Oh yeah. I have sex with a person. I don't know what you are doing where you have sex with a penis or a vagina.
 
I made a good point about orientation and bigotry not being the same thing, and I'd stand by it, but I've decided that it's all been said and no one cares and I don't want to get on the wrong side of anyone in this thread since emotions are running high. Therefore, nevermind. Deleted.
 
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isissxn said:
I made a good point about orientation and bigotry not being the same thing
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They are the same thing, when radical activists need it to be. Just like gender switches between being inherent and being a social constructs, depending on the political objective of the moment. None of it has to make sense.

Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
 
isissxn said:
I made a good point about orientation and bigotry not being the same thing, and I'd stand by it, but I've decided that it's all been said and no one cares and I don't want to get on the wrong side of anyone in this thread since emotions are running high. Therefore, nevermind. Deleted.
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Anyone who doesn't get that point isn't just wrong, they're zealots.
 
Ziggurat said:
They are the same thing, when radical activists need it to be. Just like gender switches between being inherent and being a social constructs, depending on the political objective of the moment. None of it has to make sense.
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Interesting point, I'd never thought of it that way and it goes a long way to explaining why I've never been able to get an answer to the question...

If gender is just a social construct, why be trans ?
 
Stout said:
Interesting point, I'd never thought of it that way and it goes a long way to explaining why I've never been able to get an answer to the question...

If gender is just a social construct, why be trans ?
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To be recognized by society the social construct not specified by your biological sex.

Biologically, there's men and women.

Around these two biological states, society has constructed male and female genders. Transsexual doesn't mean being born an man but having whatever gender you want. It means being born a man but being recognized by society as a woman.

(In most cases.)

Transsexuality is literally about reversing the binary social constructs. Take away the social construct, and there's no point in being trans.
 
OK that makes sense, sort of, I guess I'm just way more focused in the sex thing than I am on gender. Just be a girly guy ( or whatever ) wear a skirt ( or whatever ) and get on with it.

It funny though. you're waking down the street and by you, I mean everybody, and you see somebody approaching. The very first thing you notice about them is their sex, male of female. It happens fast and it happens subconsciously. Mate with or fight with. It's like those differences are hardwired into most peoples brains.
 
Stout said:
It funny though. you're waking down the street and by you, I mean everybody, and you see somebody approaching. The very first thing you notice about them is their sex, male of female. It happens fast and it happens subconsciously. Mate with or fight with. It's like those differences are hardwired into most peoples brains.
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Yep, we haven't come all that far out of the swamp.

Another point is, there are a significant number of trans people who, walking down the street, you wouldn't know were trans.

Must annoy the hell out of transphobic people to see an attractive person, be attracted to that person, then realise they've transitioned.
 
The Atheist said:
Yep, we haven't come all that far out of the swamp.

Another point is, there are a significant number of trans people who, walking down the street, you wouldn't know were trans.

Must annoy the hell out of transphobic people to see an attractive person, be attracted to that person, then realise they've transitioned.
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I'm not transphobic, so I wouldn't be annoyed, but I would like to see a transgirl that you couldn't detect as trans. Usually it's obvious: hands, adams apple, jawline, muscles. It's just polite to pretend that they are female.



I don't deny that the people you describe exist, I've seen some convincing images online, just never seen one in person
 
Marcus said:
I'm not transphobic, so I wouldn't be annoyed, but I would like to see a transgirl that you couldn't detect as trans. Usually it's obvious: hands, adams apple, jawline, muscles. It's just polite to pretend that they are female.



I don't deny that the people you describe exist, I've seen some convincing images online, just never seen one in person
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LMFAO. How would you know?
 
tyr_13 said:
LMFAO. How would you know?
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Most things exist on a distribution.

I know there are detectable trans-people because I've seen plenty of them, who were obviously trans.

If there are also undetectable trans-people, there should be a distribution the goes smoothly from one to the other: from very obvious to much less obvious to completely undetectable. I've seen plenty of examples in the somewhat-obvious to very-obvious range. I haven't seen any in the "possibly-trans-but-hard-to-say" range.

This doesn't suggest to me that this side of the distribution doesn't exist at all, only that the distribution is skewed toward the more obviously trans.

It's possible that the curve has two humps, so there are many people in the obviously-trans side of the distribution, many in the undetectably trans side, and very few in between. That's really not what I'd expect a-priori, though, so while it's not impossible, given the examples I've seen, if I had to guess at a distribution it is not that one, rather it's one that's skewed toward the more obvious examples.

My sample size is still relatively small, however, and as such my conclusions could just be based on a poor sample. As I don't know of any better data, it's all I've got to go on at the moment.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Oh yeah. I have sex with a person. I don't know what you are doing where you have sex with a penis or a vagina.
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Not me.

Well, of course, there's a person involved, but that whole pussy thing is pretty important to me in the choice of sex partners. (Not that I have any choice any more, or at least I don't care to exercise that choice. I'm pretty set in my ways and don't anticipate ever having a brand new sex partner ever again.)
 
Meadmaker said:
Not me.

Well, of course, there's a person involved, but that whole pussy thing is pretty important to me in the choice of sex partners. (Not that I have any choice any more, or at least I don't care to exercise that choice. I'm pretty set in my ways and don't anticipate ever having a brand new sex partner ever again.)
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Weird that it is such a factor considering how much time you spend attracted to a person while you cant observe it.
 
Stout said:
Interesting point, I'd never thought of it that way and it goes a long way to explaining why I've never been able to get an answer to the question...

If gender is just a social construct, why be trans ?
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If marriage is just a social construct, why get married?



It being a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't have real effects.

Up the thread in post #2486 I linked to a story about two young women who weren't happy with their gender for various reasons. One of them described getting catcalled by men every time she walked down the street in her neighborhood. She didn't like that. I guess she thought that if she was a boy instead, that men would stop catcalling her and pestering her for sex all the time. She was a lesbian, and wasn't interested in sex with men, but nonetheless lots of men seemed to be very interested in sex with her, so she was always having to fend off advances from men she wasn't interested in.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Weird that it is such a factor considering how much time you spend attracted to a person while you cant observe it.
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But i know it's always there.


But the real meaning of my post is somewhat different. The real meaning is that I have zero respect for the smugness of the post to which I was replying.
 
Marcus said:
I'm not transphobic, so I wouldn't be annoyed, but I would like to see a transgirl that you couldn't detect as trans. Usually it's obvious: hands, adams apple, jawline, muscles. It's just polite to pretend that they are female.



I don't deny that the people you describe exist, I've seen some convincing images online, just never seen one in person
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Well that's the thing, isn't it? Maybe you have seen such a person and didn't realize it.

How about Kim Petras? Of course, I'm telling you that she's trans so you know that before you see her, but do you think you could detect it if you didn't know?
 
Marcus said:
I don't deny that the people you describe exist, I've seen some convincing images online, just never seen one in person
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As noted, you might have met some and not known.

I admit the ones you can't tell are in a minority, but they're there.

A lot of it depends when they start hormones.
 
The Atheist said:
As noted, you might have met some and not known.

I admit the ones you can't tell are in a minority, but they're there.

A lot of it depends when they start hormones.
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That's the thing too.

To pass convincingly, so that it isn't obvious that they're trans, may require starting at a young age. According to Wikipedia, Kim Petras started her gender transition quite young:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

In 2006, Petras, then aged 13, appeared on a German television current affairs show in which she discussed her medical gender transition. At age 14, Petras appeared in a documentary and a talk show,[6][7] in a push to get permission for early gender confirmation surgery at age 16, before the minimum age of 18 in Germany. These appearances resulted in international media coverage of her transition, touting her as the "world's youngest transsexual". This assertion is inaccurate, as gender dysphoria is often diagnosed in childhood and (social) transition by younger children is not uncommon. However, Petras may have been one of the youngest people at that time to undergo transgender hormone therapy.[8]

In September 2007, she was a model for a German chain of hair salons.[9] Petras announced in November 2008 that she had completed her gender confirmation surgery at 16 years old.[10] The Daily Telegraph claimed Petras was the youngest person in the world to have had that surgery at the time. About her surgery, Petras stated "I was asked if I feel like a woman now – but the truth is I have always felt like a woman – I just ended up in the wrong body".[11]
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Puppycow said:
If marriage is just a social construct, why get married?
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I'd say that marriage is socially constructed atop biological inclinations towards long-term pair-bonding which proved adaptive and fixed in the gene pool long before anything we'd recognize as human society emerged. But then I'd probably say something similar about gender expression and gender norms.
 
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Puppycow said:
Well that's the thing, isn't it? Maybe you have seen such a person and didn't realize it.

How about Kim Petras? Of course, I'm telling you that she's trans so you know that before you see her, but do you think you could detect it if you didn't know?
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If she didn't speak I'd say it's quite possible I wouldn't know, some women naturally have a masculine looking face structure. Assuming her behavior and movements appeared natural and not exaggerated, this is a dead giveaway. Women have the advantage over transwomen of having a lifetime of practice.
 
It's all about going through male puberty, and Kim Petras probably didn't do that. The vast vast majority of transwomen have been through male puberty and while there may be one or two who "pass", when you meet them face to face there are very few of these.
 
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