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Old 25th March 2020, 06:05 AM   #41
Hercules56
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Any company bailed out by the US government should give up 25% of their stocks to the US govt.

They can buy them back later if they like.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:09 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Any company bailed out by the US government should give up 25% of their stocks to the US govt.

They can buy them back later if they like.
It might be more fair for the company to give up stock equal to the value of the bailout money they receive. 25% of General Motors is very different from 25% of MonkeyTech Innovative Butt Lasers.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:14 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Economic worth is not guided by moral worthiness. While it's satisfying to play judge and decree which operations and industries are or are not worthy of existing, and which companies are morally evil or morally good, it's not actually helpful in determining what collective action should be pursued in a crisis. Decisions like that need to be made coldbloodedly along purely functional lines. If taking Action A yields better results than taking Action B then we should do A, even if A is bailing out Gwyneth Paltrow's angel communication quartz butt plug distribution and B is employing the unemployed to build shelters for needy children. It's fun to complain about stuff but don't confuse that with actually assessing what should be done.
Right but the basic question of the thread - Why is public money going to be handed over to prop up an enterprise that, like many others, actively avoids paying into the public purse - is an interesting one. This whole situation will bring more ways in which the system is rigged into stark focus.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It might be more fair for the company to give up stock equal to the value of the bailout money they receive. 25% of General Motors is very different from 25% of MonkeyTech Innovative Butt Lasers.
Yeah but the latter makes cooler products.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:17 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Economic worth is not guided by moral worthiness. While it's satisfying to play judge and decree which operations and industries are or are not worthy of existing, and which companies are morally evil or morally good, it's not actually helpful in determining what collective action should be pursued in a crisis. Decisions like that need to be made coldbloodedly along purely functional lines. If taking Action A yields better results than taking Action B then we should do A, even if A is bailing out Gwyneth Paltrow's angel communication quartz butt plug distribution and B is employing the unemployed to build shelters for needy children. It's fun to complain about stuff but don't confuse that with actually assessing what should be done.
I agree completely, but I'm scratching my head about how "Action Bailout", ends up with better results for society than "Action Bankruptcy".


(It would help me, because I own Carnival stock, but for the rest of you folks I don't see much of a benefit.)
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree completely, but I'm scratching my head about how "Action Bailout", ends up with better results for society than "Action Bankruptcy".


(It would help me, because I own Carnival stock, but for the rest of you folks I don't see much of a benefit.)
I don't know. To make that determination I'd want to know where these companies are spending money. Few companies just take in money, they also spend it. Surely they must pay to dock places, and buy supplies, and fuel, and of course employ people. If Gwyneth Paltrow's organic ear candle factory buys three hundred million dollars worth of wax every year then shutting it down would definitely affect a lot of other people, even if the product is stupid to the point of being openly deranged. It would appear crazy, superficially, to even bring up the notion of bailing that one out but the underlying math might make it the right course of action. That's why I'm saying we can't make this sort of judgment based on moral worthiness of the superficial layer.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't know. To make that determination I'd want to know where these companies are spending money. Few companies just take in money, they also spend it. Surely they must pay to dock places, and buy supplies, and fuel, and of course employ people. If Gwyneth Paltrow's organic ear candle factory buys three hundred million dollars worth of wax every year then shutting it down would definitely affect a lot of other people, even if the product is stupid to the point of being openly deranged. It would appear crazy, superficially, to even bring up the notion of bailing that one out but the underlying math might make it the right course of action. That's why I'm saying we can't make this sort of judgment based on moral worthiness of the superficial layer.
Yes. Agreed.


And obviously I'm not some government economist who is able to do all this analysis, but based on the expertise of some random guy on the internet, I say that if it looks like they are falling into bankruptcy, then that wouldn't hurt the country, because all it means is that they sell their boats, and there's some musical chairs that go on with the job market, and as soon as the coronavirus gets down to a manageable level, people are taking cruises again, but different people are getting the profits.

Disclosure: I own Carnival stock, at least for the moment. I have a stop order in place, so if the price dips, then I won't own Carnival anymore. The stock price really went up yesterday. I have to believe that part of that was hope of a bailout.

In truth, I think cruise line stocks right now might be a good investment. If they manage to avoid bankruptcy, one way or another, they are incredibly cheap now. If life returns to normal, they'll be back to profitability. I just decided it was too risky for me right now.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:52 AM   #48
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- Being a corporation doesn't give you carte blanche to do anything you want because "It's for the good of the shareholders!"
- If you're too big to fail, you're too big to exist.
- When Bankruptcy just not become good enough?
- The cruise industry doesn't build their ships in America or flag their ships in America so... why would America bail them out?
- The cruise industry is not a vital service.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:56 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The world could do with far fewer of these behemoths clogging up and desecrating the major tourist destinations the world over and creating climate catastrophes wherever they go. Just ask the Venetians for a start.

Bail the employees out, sure, if they are American. But assist the cruise line firms only if they change flag to the USA, and go to smaller, more environment-friendly, less intrusive ships that are limited to anchoring well offshore the world over.
Especially the environmental desecration. These gross noro-behemoths have no redeeming features.

The industry needs to be actively destroyed. Not rescued.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:58 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wonder what the criteria are for choosing who to bailout. The popular example is the american auto industry. In that case, seemed likely that after the doors closed at GM, foreign auto makers would fill the market void and the US workforce would suffer from the loss. The bailout was justified to prevent irreversible harm to a large employer of Americans because the industry would go overseas and never come back.

Is the same true for the cruise industry? The cruise industry is inherently non-localized. They take advantage of this by headquartering in tax havens as convenient.

So yeah, let them eat the loss. Either they go bankrupt and change owners, or go bankrupt, stiff their investors, and restructure. The boats will still have value and someone will surely buy them up and resume business, as you say. The boats will always need workers, and they are still going to visit all the popular tourist spots. I don't see why they, or the new owners, won't bounce back once people feel safe to travel on holiday again.

Seems like the people most in danger of getting the short straw are the owners/investors, and that seems fine to me.
As an aside in re: the domestic automaker bailouts, remember that GM and others aren’t actually “makers” unto themselves. They engineer, design, develop, and yes, create some of the physical content for each unit, but a very large portion of what they do is perform final assembly of components that are made by and transported from dozens upon dozens of suppliers (and their corresponding suppliers/employees).

Uncle Sam didn’t just help save Chevrolet (as is the popular understanding), he threw a lifeline to an enormous number of small businesses and their employees.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:03 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you have to be pragmatic, how many USA folk are reliant on them for their income?
Very few Americans work on the boats. U.S. travel agents earn income from all the vacations they book, of which cruises would only be a part. Cruuises are hardly an essential industry.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:09 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
As an aside in re: the domestic automaker bailouts, remember that GM and others arenít actually ďmakersĒ unto themselves. They engineer, design, develop, and yes, create some of the physical content for each unit, but a very large portion of what they do is perform final assembly of components that are made by and transported from dozens upon dozens of suppliers (and their corresponding suppliers/employees).

Uncle Sam didnít just help save Chevrolet (as is the popular understanding), he threw a lifeline to an enormous number of small businesses and their employees.
Moreover, if the car companies had stopped producing, it would have been impossible for a group of new investors to seize those assets and just pick up where they left off. Cars aren't like that. And, keep in mind, the goal wasn't to protect them from bankruptcy. Two out of the big three went bankrupt anyway. It was to prevent them from running out of cash, so that they could continue operations, and avoid the ripple effect that their demise would have caused.

I just don't see that with the cruise industry. Their main asset is a big boat that could be handed over to another investor and could be fitted out for sail in a few weeks after the brands change, and the personnel department hires all of the staff laid off from the previous owners. Meanwhile, there's no point to keeping them operating right now, because they aren't operating anyway. (There are some legacy cruises going on right now, but at this point it's mostly getting people home who were stuck out at sea.)
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:30 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm sure somebody somewhere has collected data that would correlate vacation choices with voting preferences, but I wouldn't bet on the results. Cruises are inexplicably popular.
Itís not really inexplicable. By combining lodgings and transport, cruises are an interesting way to take a vacation and visit multiple places with a minimum amount of ďtravelĒ. You donít get on a train or plane between locales, you just go back to your hotel room and go to sleep. Wake up, you are somewhere else. Put a few classy restaurants and some amusements on the ship and you can fill all the in between times with new experiences. Fun.

But yeah, they're a luxury. Not completely opposed to bailing them out, but if I was making a list of things for the Government to bail out in order of importance, they would be pretty far down it. Using foreign ship registries and claiming overseas ownership to avoid US taxes lowers them even further. Like somewhere in Dressage Schools and Modern Art Museum territoryÖ
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:38 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Don't do a bailout - do a takeover.
Given that the ships are flagged in other nations, wouldn't that be high seas piracy?




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Old 25th March 2020, 07:55 AM   #55
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I suppose we won't be bailing out Cancun and Cozumel either. Please don't tell me we are sending money to Puerto Rico instead. Some foreigners just get preferential treatment, I suppose.
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:02 PM   #56
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As I mentioned in the Trump thread, the cruise industry avoids US taxes, ignores US employee protection law, and goes in big for gaudy and tasteless decoration.

They are Trump's role models.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:22 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders. Doing any less is negligent. No company is going to pay more tax than is legal. Talk to Congress if you want that changed. Don't demonize companies for doing their job.

btw, I thought they all had flags from Liberia. They used to. At least they are diversifying!
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:37 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Itís an interesting non-response to questions about your post about companies bribing Congress. Name them.
Easty to do: ALL of them. Campaign contributions by corporations and rich elites are bribes. They're buying access and influence to keep the contribution gravy train rolling.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:40 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Given that the ships are flagged in other nations, wouldn't that be high seas piracy?
Not if the vessel is seized in port.
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Old 25th March 2020, 05:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So there is some sort of morality index which determines which companies to bail out?

Okay, someone explain how that works and who decides?

Cross out cruise lines because of the claim that they pay no taxes and donít employ US citizens? Firstly support the claim they pay no taxes or employ people in the US. No donít bother, gut feel is good enough.
Clearly you didn't bother to follow the link in the OP and read it. It's right there in the article that they don't pay taxes.
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Old 25th March 2020, 05:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Itís an interesting non-response to questions about your post about companies bribing Congress. Name them.
Nobody needs to respond to whataboutism. This thread is about the cruise industry.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:16 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
This thread is about the cruise industry.
Gay bars? Oh, never mind. I see what you mean.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:55 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I suppose we won't be bailing out Cancun and Cozumel either. Please don't tell me we are sending money to Puerto Rico instead. Some foreigners just get preferential treatment, I suppose.
Puerto Ricans are Americans.
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:18 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
They are based in places like Bermuda for the weather.
They pay US taxes
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:50 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They pay US taxes

Multiple sources say that they are not U.S. corporations, they are not based in the U.S., and they generally do not pay U.S. income taxes. Cite your source.
Quote:
One of the little known facts about the cruise industry is that it pays virtually no U.S. taxes.

The cruise lines take advantage of an obscure provision in the U.S. tax code which permits shipping companies to evade taxes by incorporating overseas and flying the flags of foreign countries. Thatís why Carnival is incorporated in Panama, Royal Caribbean is incorporated in Liberia, and Princess Cruises is incorporated in Bermuda.
https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2011/0...little-secret/

Quote:
While the U.S. Coast Guard patrols the seas for Carnival's ships - and, in the case of the Triumph, towed them back to safety - Carnival ducks out on most U.S. taxes.

Carnival (the Cruise Lines, not the Corporation) is headquartered in Doral, Florida. It is, however, legally incorporated elsewhere, in Panama. That allows the company, under the current Tax Code, to legally avoid paying most U.S. taxes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#460838bc5575
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:55 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
They chose to strategically incorporate in tax havens to avoid paying taxes on their profits in the US. Therefore, the US taxpayer should not be bailing out these non-taxpayers.
Excellent spot.

They register in tax and insurance havens to game the system and can go ask the countries they're registered in for help, and shouldn't receive a cent of US taxpayer money.
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Old 26th March 2020, 01:00 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They pay US taxes
Yeah, they are there for the weather.
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Old 26th March 2020, 01:23 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They pay US taxes
They may pay a few taxes in the form of docking fees to the port authority when they dock in a US port to take on passengers or pay sales taxes on supplies they take on board there, but since they aren't incorporated in the US, they don't pay corporate taxes on their profits and whatnot. I am not impressed.
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Old 26th March 2020, 04:36 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
They may pay a few taxes in the form of docking fees to the port authority when they dock in a US port to take on passengers or pay sales taxes on supplies they take on board there, but since they aren't incorporated in the US, they don't pay corporate taxes on their profits and whatnot. I am not impressed.
It seems that the US government could also "game the system" by charging a different dock fee rate for an enormous foreign-flag ship carrying passengers (a cruise ship). Maybe a dock fee of $10 million for 24 hours at the dock. Something like that.
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Old 26th March 2020, 05:08 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So there is some sort of morality index which determines which companies to bail out?

Okay, someone explain how that works and who decides?

Cross out cruise lines because of the claim that they pay no taxes and donít employ US citizens? Firstly support the claim they pay no taxes or employ people in the US. No donít bother, gut feel is good enough.

And there you stop.

All companies needing to be bailed out in this situation need to go cap-in-hand to their government.

The cruise liners need to go to their government. Not the US. They have no more to do with the US than they do France or Germany or Australia. The US government owes them nothing.
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Old 26th March 2020, 05:10 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Will Americans who have not filed a tax return for a few years due to being unemployed by choice, or working under-the-table, be eligible to collect their $1200?

If not, why should a corp that has not paid for several years be any different?

They have paid. Whatever it is they owe the government they are registered with.

They haven't 'not filed', they just choose to file not in the USA.
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Old 26th March 2020, 05:57 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Multiple sources say that they are not U.S. corporations, they are not based in the U.S., and they generally do not pay U.S. income taxes. Cite your source.

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2011/0...little-secret/


https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#460838bc5575
I'm glad we agree they pay taxes.
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:00 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm glad we agree they pay taxes.
Whatís a tax haven, Bob?
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:45 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Whatís a tax haven, Bob?
Tax Haven doesn't get them out of all taxes.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:30 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Tax Haven doesn't get them out of all taxes.
Sure. And throwing a nickel in a salvation army pot at christmas time makes me a philanthropist.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:31 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Sure. And throwing a nickel in a salvation army pot at christmas time makes me a philanthropist.
It does mean you donated to charity. These companies do pay taxes.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:36 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Tax Haven doesn't get them out of all taxes.
How much taxes do tax havens get them out of, Bob?
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:37 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
How much taxes do tax havens get them out of, Bob?
Dont know don't care
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:37 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It does mean you donated to charity. These companies do pay taxes.
Are you missing the point the poster is making, Bob?
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:38 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Dont know don't care
Isnít it key to the discussion topic, Bob?
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