Moderated Money/inequalities - Part 3 / Poll - willing to work for free?

Are you willing to work for free if the goods and services are free?

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 31.5%

  • No

    Votes: 35 47.9%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 15 20.5%
  • Total voters
    73
Status
Not open for further replies.
Gaetan said:
What is slavery is to work for money because you must work to get money to buy food and pay your rent, you have no choice, but in a system of no money, you work by altruism because good and services are free.
Click to expand...

You should talk to the user Caveman, he also suffers from the delusion that humans are inherently good.:rolleyes:
 
Gaetan said:
What is slavery is to work for money because you must work to get money to buy food and pay your rent, you have no choice, but in a system of no money, you work by altruism because good and services are free.
Click to expand...

I don't want to work to give you things for free. Are you going to make me, or having someone else make me?
 
DragonLady said:
Wow.

You guys really read into this. I said "yes" because I love the job I do, and if I didn't have bills to pay & groceries to buy, I'd continue doing it for free.
Click to expand...

Body of work. This is clearly a companion thread to Gaetan's other money thread, spun off for the poll.

I think you didn't read into this enough. Even without knowing the context of the other thread, didn't you stop to wonder what was meant by "goods and services are free"?

Don't you have any curiosity about how that would work?

ETA: Here's what we're reading into this:
Gaetan said:
Workers, clients, and the community decide what is provide. deciders are elected by peoples of the community, if something is useless it is not a good idea to spend labor and ressources to do it.

The value of goods and services don't have a price since it is free.
Click to expand...

Those of us following the other thread didn't need Gaetan to tell us here, but now you know too. The real question isn't "are you willing to do the job you have and love for free, if your needs are (magically) taken care of anyway?" The real question is,
"Are you willing to do the job your community decides is an appropriate use of labor and resources, for free; and to enjoy a quality of life your community decides is appropriate, regardless of the quality of your work or your own capacity to improve your quality of life through private enterprise?"​
Now that you have the context and the actual question being asked, do you want to change your answer?
 
Last edited:
I can't recall whether I have told this before. What Gaetan seems to be asking is whether or not any of us would be interested in joining a commune. Some might, but this is a far different thing from asking whether we believe a communal system ought to be made universal.

Long long ago I worked for an "intentional community," basically a small version of a commune, in this case serving mentally handicapped adults. No salary, but one's needs provided for. It worked pretty well, but it was not run as a democratic enterprise. The administration was in charge, and was not run communally. The structure was somewhat complicated, and the presence of many persons for whom useful low level work was fulfilling made some aspects of running a community relatively easy.

We occasionally were visited by people from other such setups, exchanging information and the like. At one point we had some people from a community (still in existence, but much changed since then) which had decided to take the fictional utopia in B.F. Skinner's Walden II as a guide, using the book itself as virtual scripture. In this arrangement, everyone was expected to produce a certain amount of labor, the value of which was fixed according to a formula. Each person was expected to earn a certain minimum number of work credits, with worse jobs paying better. Of course any job that was considered at all necessary must be possible to perform in the time frame, so the difference in credits could not be astronomical. But people were free to choose what to do. There was no central administration dictating that the community needed this or that job done and assigning it to anyone.

It did not take long for this system to fall apart, because people realized early that they'd rather do a nice job for twice as long as a lousy one, and if they just didn't feel like doing something, nobody could tell them to do it. So the sheep kept getting out because nobody fixed the fences. Nobody could say "you must help fix the fence." You could up the pay, but if you got your living well enough doing something else, the pay itself was worthless.

One is reminded here a bit of a commentary Slavenka Drakulich made about the problem with Yugoslavia at the end of communism: it was a country where everyone had plenty of money and nothing to spend it on.

The community itself made a living by making hammocks as I recall, and I believe they still do. But I don't think they're Walden II fundamentalists any more.

I like the idea of eliminating poverty and excessive privilege and greed and all that, but people are people, and it's hard to get people to do what they must without some kind of motivation, and people's needs and desires are not uniform.

Of course an intentional community is a special case to begin with, since joining it is voluntary. Economic ideas that work for a self-selected group may not work nearly as well if they're imposed.
 
DragonLady said:
Wow.

You guys really read into this. I said "yes" because I love the job I do, and if I didn't have bills to pay & groceries to buy, I'd continue doing it for free.
Click to expand...

You haven't participated in OP's previous endless threads, then. All on the same topic, all with the same problems, all never addressed by OP.
 
Do I get to choose what work I do? Does anyone check on whether I'm being sufficiently productive? I'm pretty lazy and easily distracted, so good luck getting more out of me than I take when I have no incentive to try harder. Speaking of which, do I get any control over the quantity or quality of the free goods and services I receive in return or does a box of standard groceries just turn up from time to time? Do I get any choice over where I live? Do I get a place of my own or just a bed in a state workers barracks? Will any of my fellow drones mind my constant violin practice as I try to teach myself from scratch? Actually, do I get to own a violin or do all instruments belong to the state?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Do I get to choose what work I do?
Click to expand...
In Gaetan's mad schema? No. You are assigned.

Jack by the hedge said:
Does anyone check on whether I'm being sufficiently productive?
Click to expand...
In Gaetan's mad schema? No.

Jack by the hedge said:
I'm pretty lazy and easily distracted, so good luck getting more out of me than I take when I have no incentive to try harder.
Click to expand...
In Gaetan's mad schema, you could get assigned as a sewer cleaner. Nobody will check up on you. Or even if you are present. You still get everything for free.

Jack by the hedge said:
Speaking of which, do I get any control over the quantity or quality of the free goods and services I receive in return or does a box of standard groceries just turn up from time to time?
Click to expand...
Supermarkets and all other stortes operate as they currently do. You simply take what you want.

Jack by the hedge said:
Do I get any choice over where I live?
Click to expand...
Yup. Pick an empty plot and whatever mansion you can imagine will be built for you for free.

Jack by the hedge said:
Do I get a place of my own or just a bed in a state workers barracks? Will any of my fellow drones mind my constant violin practice as I try to teach myself from scratch? Actually, do I get to own a violin or do all instruments belong to the state?
Click to expand...
Your free mansion will render your questions moot.

Seriously, this mad notion has been wandering on aimlessly for years at this point. The OP thinks we are all American, that we all voted for Trump, that Bernie Sanders has a policy to abolish money and on and on and on. It is a joke at this point.
 
DragonLady said:
You guys really read into this.
Click to expand...

I see you're knew to Gaetan. He thinks money is the work of the devil.

Gaetan said:
What is slavery is to work for money because you must work to get money to buy food and pay your rent,
Click to expand...

That is the opposite of slavery.

but in a system of no money, you work by altruism because good and services are free.
Click to expand...

Time and time again you've been shown wrong because outside of your fantasy world, no one does that.
 
Gaetan said:
I discussed about these issues in the economic forum. People have a job since they can afford a computer and internet, answer the question.
Click to expand...

You've not once discussed it. Dance around the issue a few times. Maybe you should take your own advice and answer the question before asking of others what you refuse to do yourself.
 
Gaetan said:
Are you willing to work for free if the goods and services were free?
Click to expand...

Nope. I enjoy my job very much, but I value my time and my sense of being self sufficient too much to be willing to work for no pay at all. Without being paid, I can't say I'd feel motivated to get up early and go to work; not when I could do things that I enjoy more, like spending time with family. My parents are elderly; time is a priceless and precious commodity. If I could have what I have now without having to work, why would I work?

A barter based economy may have worked once when the world was much smaller and more simple, but that time is long gone. I don't see how the world we live in now could function that way.
 
"If money doesn't exist then everything is free" is a child's understanding of economics.

Money is just a transfer medium for goods and services. You can't make resources and time and raw materials and manpower unlimited by getting rid of money.

If Og has only 4 tiger skins, and it takes the person in the tribe who knows how to do it 8 hours to make a proper tiger skin blanket out of a tiger skin, but you have 5 members of the tribe who need a blanket before tonight getting rid of money isn't going to make another tiger skin or another 24 hours in a day appear which is Gaetans whole idea.
 
Gaetan said:
No because in a world of no money goods and services are free of charge, then work is done by altruism, this is freedom while in a world of money you are a slave, you must work to bring food on the table and pay your rent, then i see since a long time that you prefer to be a slave.
Click to expand...

No, in a world that demands you work for mere sustenance, you are a slave.

I know why you avoid this question:

Hey, "the man" come and paint my house.
The man does come and paint my house.
Awesome, go take whatever you need from Gaetan.

How have I shown any respect to either "the man" or you?

Because you know it shows nothing but disrespect to all parties involved.
 
Tomboy said:
Nope. I enjoy my job very much, but I value my time and my sense of being self sufficient too much to be willing to work for no pay at all. Without being paid, I can't say I'd feel motivated to get up early and go to work; not when I could do things that I enjoy more, like spending time with family. My parents are elderly; time is a priceless and precious commodity. If I could have what I have now without having to work, why would I work?

A barter based economy may have worked once when the world was much smaller and more simple, but that time is long gone. I don't see how the world we live in now could function that way.
Click to expand...

Just look how much people are employed to track money in the states, millions, if you abolish money these people will look for a job giving you more time off.
 
Gaetan said:
Just look how much people are employed to track money in the states, millions, if you abolish money these people will look for a job giving you more time off.
Click to expand...

That's not really how that would work in reality. Plenty of folks have tried to explain that to you in your other thread.
 
Tomboy said:
That's not really how that would work in reality. Plenty of folks have tried to explain that to you in your other thread.
Click to expand...

It works like that, no money more people will have time off because a lot of people just look after it, logical, no? Don't thing at your dogma, be open.
 
You would still have to track that all put efforts into the system and not just pulled from it.
And then deny benefits to all that contributed less than a fair share.

How would one account for that without creation of an elite overseer class?
If on a system of honor the entire would be bankrupt within a month.
 
I’m totally up for it as long as the work is that of a part time cashier and the goods and services are mansions, private planes, gourmet meals, world-class health care, and sexual favors.
 
Option 4: On Planet X, nobody works
checkbox_checked.png
 
I voted yes because I am a strong advocate of volunteer charity work. Not as a career, but as just that, a charity to give back to the community.

However, it's fairly widely known that past about 10% or so, and it doesn't work.

So yes, I'll work for free for a project that is providing needed free goods or services. But I can't do that full time or the whole system collapses.
 
Just about the pol; every pol like this is deeply flawed and the results are totally meaningless. I know this from my sales training and it was an eye opening experience.
People were asked if they would buy a certain appealing product. About 80% answered "yes" without hesitation. Then they were put a "live" situation when they have to actually open their wallet and complete the purchase. Only about 10% did! Market psychology is very complex and people never involved in professional selling have no idea.
 
Gaetan said:
What is slavery is to work for money because you must work to get money to buy food and pay your rent, you have no choice, but in a system of no money, you work by altruism because good and services are free.
Click to expand...
I'm sure that this is not how slavery was defined during the Civil War.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I don't want to work to give you things for free. Are you going to make me, or having someone else make me?
Click to expand...

I think it's a community decision, and you'll work voluntarily or you'll be forced to work voluntarily. You'll work where you're assigned, you will do a good job and also like it, and all economic problems magically disappear.
 
timhau said:
I think it's a community decision, and you'll work voluntarily or you'll be forced to work voluntarily. You'll work where you're assigned, you will do a good job and also like it, and all economic problems magically disappear.
Click to expand...

People work by altruism because goods and services are free of charge.
 
psionl0 said:
I'm sure that this is not how slavery was defined during the Civil War.
Click to expand...

Dogma, native wasn't slave to render free of charge service to the community, let's this system on in countries. Voluntarily work is not slavery, slavery is when the work is not volunteer as in the use of the money system because you have no choice you must work to bring food on the table.
 
Last edited:
RedStapler said:
Who gets to decide what job I (and you) will get?
Click to expand...

You will never get an answer. For a decade now he's been starting the same thread over and over and he gets asked this question every time.

Some of us will just volunteer to toil in endless backbreaking work in the fields, some of us will just volunteer to put in the massive amounts of training it takes to become doctors, some of us will just volunteer to do every job, there will magically be enough of everything for everyone all because of "altruism" because Gaeten thinks Jesus said that "Compensating someone for work" is slavery.
 
applecorped said:
You wouldn't be working for free if you received a good or service

That's bartering
Click to expand...

This is some kind of indirect bartering because you put what you do on market, goods or services, and in return you get what others have done free of charge. The difference with the actual system is that you don't get directly for your service a direct compensation in return. As exemple a guy making pizzas, he puts it on the market, he doesn't get directly pay for it but he gets free stuff to make pizza and free stuff he needs for him and his family others have done, that's his salary he gets indirectly.
 
Gaetan said:
you because it is voluntary work. You don't have to work because goods and services are free of charge, you work by altruism.
Click to expand...

Are you intentionally obtuse or what?

So, how often will you climb down into your local sewers to remove a blockage? How often will you stand on the back of the garbage truck?

What if you had to do it for several months/years because no one else wants to do it despite , lol, altruism?
 
Last edited:
I just thought of the main reason we could never get rid of money. If money didn't exist then we'd have to stuff slices of cheese into strippers' g-strings. And that's just plain unhygienic, damn it.
 
Those who say that we must keep money are stupid or they get rich at our expense, using money is contrary to survival, no tribe can survive if it uses money and it is the same for the planet
 
RedStapler said:
Are you intentionally obtuse or what?

So, how often will you climb down into your local sewers to remove a blockage? How often will you stand on the back of the garbage truck?

What if you had to do it for several months/years because no one else wants to do it despite , lol, altruism?
Click to expand...

You'll be more motivated to work is nobody is pushing your ass like bankers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom