Biden for President?

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Leftus said:
Then why was Bernie so far behind against a corporate democrat? It wasn't even popular enough within his own party to secure the nomination.
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People almost never vote ideologically. This is why "voting against one's own interest" is a common phenomenon. Most people just go in the voting booth and do whatever feels good at that particular moment.
 
thaiboxerken said:
No, you are wrong and I've cited evidence to support the fact that you are wrong.
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You have evidence that most people in the US are far right or far left?

I'd like to see that evidence.

rockysmith76 said:
That is nothing more than a classic "I know you are but what am I" response.
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It was absolutely nothing like that. Do you even know what the phrase means?
 
3point14 said:
Do you think, over the last 40 years, that the US, economically, has shifted right?
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Why limit it to that? In fact, what in your opinion would be evidence of shifting economically to the left?

3point14 said:
You can make all the advances in minority rights and being 'woke' but the bottom line is that it's about the money. And the US has, in termsof taxation and economics, been moving to the right for the last 40 years.
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And that is the evidence that Delvo is wrong, and what the BernieBros are willing to throw away because Sanders lost again.
 
wareyin said:
Why limit it to that? In fact, what in your opinion would be evidence of shifting economically to the left?



And that is the evidence that Delvo is wrong, and what the BernieBros are willing to throw away because Sanders lost again.
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Because that's what modern Democratic politics are. They gut social spending but protect civil rights. They serve the corporations.

Evidence of shifting economically left would be less income disparity, more robust social safety net, higher minimum wage, more union power, etc. You know, all the things that have been getting worse for decades with assistance from Third-Way liberals.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Because that's what modern Democratic politics are. They gut social spending but protect civil rights. They serve the corporations.

Evidence of shifting economically left would be less income disparity, more robust social safety net, higher minimum wage, more union power, etc. You know, all the things that have been getting worse for decades with assistance from Third-Way liberals.
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no
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
For example, when Biden waffles on whether he would veto M4A, he cites costs and middle class taxes. He is a fiscal conservative
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That "fiscal conservative" wants to raise taxes (especially on corporations and the wealthy). That "fiscal conservative" wants the government to spend money to fund free college for 2 years. That "fiscal conservative" wants to spend government money to help provide health care to millions of Americans who are not currently covered. That "fiscal conservative" wants to psend government money to address climate change (through funding research and improved infrastructure).

Yes, his policies do not go as far as the policies of Bernie Sanders. But they are not, in any way "fiscally conservative".

, he is skeptical of government spending.
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Everyone should be.

There are times when government spending is a good idea.... areas where either the private sector cannot address certain issues, or where the government can do things more efficiently. But that does not mean that each and every spending proposal is a "good idea". Government resources are not unlimited (even if they decide to "tax the rich into oblivion"), and there can be harmful side effects to any government program.

No, that doesn't mean that the "republicans are right/government must be cut".... it means thought that not every potential spending plan is a good diea either.

When it comes to healthcare policy, climate change policy, or any other large issue, I fully expect Biden's conservatism to take charge.
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So your argument is "It doesn't matter what his policies are, or what he has said and done in the past, I will automatically assume he is a liar".

Can we apply that same logic to any politician? Can I say "Bernie claims he's not a communist but I fully expect that if Sanders becomes president his communist leanings will take charge"? (Not that I necessarily believe that, but if your argument is "Biden will break his word", then why should we trust St. Sanders either?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Because that's what modern Democratic politics are. They gut social spending but protect civil rights. They serve the corporations.
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Civil rights may not be very important to you, but to many on the left they are very important. This is why I asked why we should limit it to only economic policies. You yourself don't limit your criticisms of the left to economic policies, for instance. You're critical of the Democratic Party on military and foreign policy as well.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Evidence of shifting economically left would be less income disparity, more robust social safety net, higher minimum wage, more union power, etc. You know, all the things that have been getting worse for decades with assistance from Third-Way liberals.
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I see. Despite those on the left actually fighting for every single one of those things, the opinion is that they're either against them or at fault because they haven't made the other party who is currently in power just...magically do what they want?
 
thaiboxerken said:
Nope, nor did I claim it. The fact is that most Americans like most progressive policies, particularly if they are not labeled as such.
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I always figured it was a case of people liking the concept of progressive policies, but finding the details distasteful.

Its one thing to say "do you like X"? Its another to say "Do you like X, if this is what it gives you and this is what it costs".

Take for example health care... Lots of polling suggests people love the idea of "Universal health care". Yet when asked about details, Sanders' BernieCare plan was one of the least popular.
 
Segnosaur said:
I always figured it was a case of people liking the concept of progressive policies, but finding the details distasteful. .
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I think it's the many people are ignorant of how such systems could work. They'd rather pay $1000/month in premiums to a private insurance company than $250/month in taxes. (These numbers are not accurate, just an example) They believe this because they've been conditioned to believe taxes are evil, no matter what the tax is for or what the benefit is.
 
thaiboxerken said:
I think it's the many people are ignorant of how such systems could work. They'd rather pay $1000/month in premiums to a private insurance company than $250/month in taxes. (These numbers are not accurate, just an example) They believe this because they've been conditioned to believe taxes are evil, no matter what the tax is for or what the benefit is.
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I don’t know if it’s that so much. I think it’s the fact that nobody has a detailed enough plan to spell out the kinds of things you are talking about -the premium vs the tax.

Like I said, I’m open, but I’m not going to just jump in a bandwagon for a concept. I need to see details.
 
Well, a little good news polling....

From: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbr...-election-chances-against-trump/#32b171db2b3c
Biden has led in every one-on-one poll against Trump taken in the last month and a half, as Vox notes, with a recent CNN poll showing Biden leading Trump 53% to 42%.
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In an analysis of state-by-state polling conducted in November 2019... found Biden polling ahead of Trump in key battleground states such as Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida and Arizona, and in a dead heat with Trump in Michigan

Granted it is very early in the election cycle (and Hillary did beat Trump in plenty of polls prior to the 2016 election). Hopefully Democratic voters don't become complacent and think "No way can Trump get re-elected. I think I'll stay home".

Unfortunately this will be a very difficult election to predict... Normally a disaster gives the president a bump in popularity, which did happen with Trump but it appears to have been very small and short lived. But the Covid-19 pandemic can really throw things into a loop... voting patterns may change (allowing more voter suppression by Republicans), the economy may take a hit but the pandemic might ease off in the summer which could help Trump.
 
thaiboxerken said:
I always figured it was a case of people liking the concept of progressive policies, but finding the details distasteful.
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I think it's the many people are ignorant of how such systems could work. They'd rather pay $1000/month in premiums to a private insurance company than $250/month in taxes.
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But it depends on what exactly they get with those taxes.

Do I get kick-ass health care for $1000, complete with a foot-rub from a member of the swedish bikini team, while the $250 version involves waiting around for a year for the doctor to fix a broken leg, because resources are spread thin and your case isn't considered a priority?

Some people think that paying more might be worth it, if it gives them something better than the cheaper option might provide.

And keep in mind that not all 'progressive' policies will be cheaper for everyone... Giving "free college" may be of benefit to students, but people who have already graduated (or who never went to college) many not see it as much benefit.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Nope, nor did I claim it. The fact is that most Americans like most progressive policies, particularly if they are not labeled as such.
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Here's the exchange:

thaiboxerken said:
rockysmith76 said:
Then that just makes you wrong. Most folks tend towards the center, not far right or left.
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No, you are wrong and I've cited evidence to support the fact that you are wrong. Nice try though. If you want acceptance, maybe you can go to stormfront or fox news forums.
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I understood that to mean that you were responding to the claim in the post you quoted. You can see the reason for the confusion.
 
Segnosaur said:
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And keep in mind that not all 'progressive' policies will be cheaper for everyone... Giving "free college" may be of benefit to students, but people who have already graduated (or who never went to college) many not see it as much benefit.
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I note once again that tax-supported state colleges and universities were created to make higher education available to everybody. Until the '80s they were cheap enough that most kids could work their way through, and some were tuition-free, like the California system and City College of NY. Having to take out five- and six-figure loans to get a BA is a recent development. An educated population is widely considered a net benefit to the society. Restoring the level of public support that used to be considered routine would go a long way toward solving the problem, and it would hardly be some extremist fantasy. And even if people are already out of school, it would benefit their kids.
 
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Bob001 said:
I note once again that tax-supported state colleges and universities were created to make higher education available to everybody. Until the '80s they were cheap enough that most kids could work their way through, and some were tuition-free, like the California system and City College of NY. Having to take out five- and six-figure loans to get a BA is a recent development. An educated population is widely considered a net benefit to the society. Restoring the level of public support that used to be considered routine would go a long way toward solving the problem, and it would hardly be some extremist fantasy. And even if people are already out of school, it would benefit their kids.
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Public funding for universities hasn't decreased. The cost on education has increased. It far outpaced inflation for decades. That's what needs fixing.
 
Ziggurat said:
Public funding for universities hasn't decreased. The cost on education has increased. It far outpaced inflation for decades. That's what needs fixing.
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It's true enough that costs have outpaced inflation, for multiple reasons. But public funding of higher education has indisputably been reduced, which is one of the reasons that the price for students has increased.
Most Americans believe state spending for public universities and colleges has, in fact, increased or at least held steady over the last 10 years, according to a new survey by American Public Media.

They’re wrong. States have collectively scaled back their annual higher education funding by $9 billion during that time, when adjusted for inflation, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, or CBPP, reports
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https://www.pbs.org/newshour/educat...-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions

Deep state cuts in funding for higher education over the last decade have contributed to rapid, significant tuition increases and pushed more of the costs of college to students, making it harder for them to enroll and graduate. These cuts also have worsened racial and class inequality, since rising tuition can deter low-income students and students of color from college.
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https://www.cbpp.org/research/state...on-funding-cuts-have-pushed-costs-to-students

Etc.
 
applecorped said:
yay biden
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Back to Biden. I have not seen a recent poll, and I'm curious how much of a lead he has compared to Trump?
 
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wasapi said:
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Back to Biden. I have not seen a recent poll, and I'm curious how much of a lead he has compared to Trump?
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Bernie verses Trump would have been a more interesting race.
 
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Delvo said:
You might say a Trump win is letting 2 more Supreme Court members get appointed by the Republicans
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I think this is an issue that the left should not lose sight of. We are on the brink of losing the Supreme Court for a generation, if it isn't already lost. The next president will likely pick Ruth Bader Ginsburg's replacement. If it's Trump, it'll be another justice in the mold of Gorsuch and Kavanaugh. With Biden it could be someone like Sotomayor or Kagan. With 6 conservatives, 5 of them solid, there won't even be a swing vote who might be a 5th vote for the liberal side occasionally. Say goodbye to Roe v. Wade.
 
Puppycow said:
I think this is an issue that the left should not lose sight of. We are on the brink of losing the Supreme Court for a generation, if it isn't already lost. The next president will likely pick Ruth Bader Ginsburg's replacement. If it's Trump, it'll be another justice in the mold of Gorsuch and Kavanaugh. With Biden it could be someone like Sotomayor or Kagan. With 6 conservatives, 5 of them solid, there won't even be a swing vote who might be a 5th vote for the liberal side occasionally. Say goodbye to Roe v. Wade.
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You'll be lucky if it's along those lines - the next one will start their project of overturning Brown v. Board.

(Think I'm kidding? Take a look at how John Roberts Started.)
 
rockysmith76 said:
Bernie verses Trump would have been a more interesting race.
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It is pretty glaring how many conservatives are and were practically begging for this match-up. Trump himself (a man not known for taking the hard way) has been clamoring to run against Sanders for both his elections.
 
wareyin said:
It is pretty glaring how many conservatives are and were practically begging for this match-up. Trump himself (a man not known for taking the hard way) has been clamoring to run against Sanders for both his elections.
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Ahh yes, the wild speculation of our political enemies, Truth from the heavens. These people don't have any special knowledge about how such a match-up would unfold.

Keep in mind the DNC was practically jumping for joy when Trump won the nomination. HRC vs Trump was going to be an easy win, if you recall.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Ahh yes, the wild speculation of our political enemies, Truth from the heavens. These people don't have any special knowledge about how such a match-up would unfold.

Keep in mind the DNC was practically jumping for joy when Trump won the nomination. HRC vs Trump was going to be an easy win, if you recall.
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Yes, the DNC couldn't have predicted Comey's October Surprise, the Russian assistance, etc, yet still Clinton won more votes.

Sanders? He couldn't muster the votes to win in the primaries and polls consistently show him behind or far behind Trump in battleground states. Of course he would be easier to beat.
 
wareyin said:
It is pretty glaring how many conservatives are and were practically begging for this match-up. Trump himself (a man not known for taking the hard way) has been clamoring to run against Sanders for both his elections.
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Ill thank you not to presume my political leanings.
 
wareyin said:
Yes, the DNC couldn't have predicted Comey's October Surprise, the Russian assistance, etc, yet still Clinton won more votes.

Sanders? He couldn't muster the votes to win in the primaries and polls consistently show him behind or far behind Trump in battleground states. Of course he would be easier to beat.
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Hmm, no mention of Clinton's campaign failures again. Only external forces. Curious.

Did the Russians force Hillary not to campaign hard in pivotal battleground states?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Ahh yes, the wild speculation of our political enemies, Truth from the heavens. These people don't have any special knowledge about how such a match-up would unfold.

Keep in mind the DNC was practically jumping for joy when Trump won the nomination. HRC vs Trump was going to be an easy win, if you recall.
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Then a whole bunch of complacent dems stayed home and here we are.
 
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