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Old 21st May 2020, 03:08 AM   #521
abaddon
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Altered Initial condition 1)
The grid consists of a chess board modified by adding a black square to the right of each original black square moving the others to the right. Or any other non-chess-board pattern.

Onto this grid you place a simple ant. This ant follows some very simple rules.

1. Move one square forward.
2. If the square it lands on is black, change it to white and turn to the left.
3. If the square it lands on is white, change it to black and turn to the right.
4. Repeat forever.

What pattern of black and white squares will the ant make, in your opinion?

Altered Initial condition 2)
The grid consists of a regular chess board pattern.

Onto this grid you place a simple ant. This ant follows some very simple rules.

1. Move one square forward.
2. If the square it lands on is black, change it to white and turn to the left.
3. If the square it lands on is white, change it to black and turn to the right.
3a. Every tenth move must be a forward move using the next digit in the number Pi (or "e") for the number of forward steps.
4. Repeat forever.

What pattern of black and white squares will the ant make, in your opinion?

Apparently the exact same pattern?
What pattern would that be? Do you know?
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Old 21st May 2020, 08:00 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What pattern would that be? Do you know?

Are you serious that the second example will ever make a pattern?

I was being seriously facetious.

Randomness has been introduced fairly frequently into that example.

Are you asking for a description of the pattern or a name? I do not know what sort of answer you want. And why would that "pattern" demonstrate emergence?
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Old 21st May 2020, 08:58 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Are you serious that the second example will ever make a pattern?

I was being seriously facetious.

Randomness has been introduced fairly frequently into that example.

Are you asking for a description of the pattern or a name? I do not know what sort of answer you want. And why would that "pattern" demonstrate emergence?
I thought the initial conditions referred to the state of the board, ie whether all black, all white or a mixture, that is irrelevant as far as has been found.
What you did was changed the rules the ant follows, by adding 3a.

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Old 21st May 2020, 10:35 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I remember the sequencing and how it enabled the origin to be determined, but I can find no mention of a lack of resemblance to later strains. Link?

The wiki article says

which suggests the opposite.


It seems that the Spanish Flu was a very virulent H1N1 due to certain gene combinations. Those combinations became extinct for some reason. The Spanish Flu seems to have had “precursors” that were around for decades. It also seems that it mutated 3 times and a;; those mutations died off. It is possible that herd immunity to the basic virus may have caused the virulent strain to become completely extinct.

Just how different does the virus have to be to be considered a variant that did not somehow die out completely? How long is a piece of string?

A 2018/2019 site with really good info.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-res...918-virus.html

…For decades, the 1918 virus was lost to history, a relic of a time when the understanding of infectious pathogens and the tools to study them were still in their infancy.

…Phylogenetic analysis, which is used to group influenza viruses in accordance with their evolutionary development and diversity, placed the 1918 virus’ HA within and around the root of the mammalian clade. This means that it likely was an ancestor or closely related to the earliest influenza viruses known to infect mammals.

…Dr. Tumpey’s work to reconstruct the complete 1918 virus began in the summer of 2005. To reduce risk to colleagues and the public, he was required to work on the virus alone and only after hours when fellow colleagues had exited the laboratories for the day and gone home.

…On the day the 1918 virus appeared in his cell-culture, Dr. Tumpey knew history had been made, and in fact, a historic virus had been brought back from extinction. He sent a playful, Neil Armstrong-inspired email later that day to colleagues and collaborators, which simply said “That’s one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.” Everyone then knew what had been accomplished. Dr. Tumpey had become the first man to reconstruct the complete 1918 virus. Tumpey and colleagues wrote “the constellation of all eight genes together make an exceptionally virulent virus.”14 No other human influenza viruses tested were as exceptionally virulent. In that way, the 1918 virus was special – a uniquely deadly product of nature, evolution and the intermingling of people and animals.

…When pre-pandemic vaccines are made, they are stored in the Strategic National Stockpile, along with facemasks, antiviral drugs and other materials that can be used in case of a pandemic. All of these resources, tools, technologies, programs and activities are excellent tools for pandemic planning, and pandemic planning itself has improved significantly since 1918. In the United States, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) maintains a national Pandemic Influenza Plan, and this plan was updated in 2017.

…If a severe pandemic, such as occurred in 1918 happened today, it would still likely overwhelm health care infrastructure, both in the United States and across the world. Hospitals and doctors’ offices would struggle to meet demand from the number of patients requiring care. Such an event would require significant increases in the manufacture, distribution and supply of medications, products and life-saving medical equipment, such as mechanical ventilators. Businesses and schools would struggle to function, and even basic services like trash pickup and waste removal could be impacted.The best defense against the flu continues to be a flu vaccine, but even today, flu vaccines face a number of challenges. One challenge is that flu vaccines are often moderately effective, even when well matched to circulating viruses.

Other older sites:
1918 Influenza: the Mother of All Pandemics https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3291398/

The Story of Influenza - The Threat of Pandemic Influenza - NCBI Bo... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22148/
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Old 21st May 2020, 10:37 AM   #525
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What’s going on in this thread?
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Old 21st May 2020, 10:45 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I thought the initial conditions referred to the state of the board, ie whether all black, all white or a mixture, that is irrelevant as far as has been found.
What you did was changed the rules the ant follows, by adding 3a.

All of this discussion relates to the emergence of intelligence, if I remember correctly. I went back to the Prime Cause.

The Prime Cause would decide what board to use - namely the amount of matter and antimatter would be used and how it would be packed or arranged. It would also decide what the rules would be - namely the Laws of Physics. And it would decide on the physical constants - an incredibly small change in one or more would apparently result in a chaotic universe.

Irrelevant to what? For some reason I feel I am debating while blind folded. There are oblique references that I find confusing.
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Old 21st May 2020, 10:55 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
What’s going on in this thread?

I say that in 2009 God spoke to me and told me that humankind could not control over-population so he would do it with a severe pandemic. He confirmed the message was not just my imagination by having me learn of the Swine Flu pandemic the very next day and sending infected students to two places I was passing through in the next 4 days in New Zealand.

A week later I realized that Swine Flu was not the big one but just confirmation for me. I had to use the intervening years to learn about plagues and pandemics and get information relating to the what and why of the big one. Which has arrived pretty much according to plan, although I had to wait and watch. I also say that cell phone radiation is a factor in making the virus so much worse.

You can choose to think there might be some merit in what I say, or you can scoff. If God did talk to me, then this pandemic will result in massive societal change and a serious downward trend in population. One can prepare emotionally and contribute positively to the changes - or one can bemoan the fate of the world.

I know a number of religious people who feel that change is needed, but it will only occur with massive disaster to force the change.



ETA: And of course we are arguing about whether God exists.
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Old 21st May 2020, 11:09 AM   #528
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This might be the way to express it. It died out. We do not know why. However, it did mutate to less virulent strains.


https://mbio.asm.org/content/3/5/e00201-12

...The milestone achievement of reconstructing an “extinct” pandemic virus raised a number of questions that had not been asked before. The most fundamental of these was whether it was necessary or wise to recreate by molecular means a naturally extinct virus that represented one of the deadliest infectious agents in human history.

...Although the pandemic influenza viruses of 1957, 1968, and 2009 are all descended, via different pathways, from the 1918 virus, only the 2009 pandemic virus expresses an antigenically similar hemagglutinin (HA) (11).
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Old 21st May 2020, 11:17 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
All of this discussion relates to the emergence of intelligence, if I remember correctly. I went back to the Prime Cause.

The Prime Cause would decide what board to use - namely the amount of matter and antimatter would be used and how it would be packed or arranged. It would also decide what the rules would be - namely the Laws of Physics. And it would decide on the physical constants - an incredibly small change in one or more would apparently result in a chaotic universe.

Irrelevant to what? For some reason I feel I am debating while blind folded. There are oblique references that I find confusing.
Ah sorry for being confusing, my reply was strictly related to what was being considered initial conditions regarding the Langton's ant topic.
The starting position of the board is the initial conditions, which seem to be irrelevant when asking about the end patterns.
You changed the rules of the ant by adding 3a, which isn't the same as changing the initial conditions, so I was just posting to point that out.

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Old 21st May 2020, 02:09 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The Court of Appeal ruling was accurate but kind to the Judge (Laurenson). This judge retired two weeks after his ruling. Although considered an outstanding judge, his demeanor was that of a person entering dementia. How do you give costs to a lawyer who has stated he is an observer and not a participant?

A year after this case the New Zealand Legal Aid was taken to task for corruption on an extensive scale. The opposing lawyer (Cunningham) was funded by legal aid. His brother worked in Legal Aid. He was told by the Appeal Court to sit down and that they did not want to hear from him.

You can look up what the law reports said. This judgement was not in any of them.


IN THE COURT OF APPEAL OF NEW ZEALAND
CA228/05
CA229/05
BETWEEN SANDRA JEANETTE HOTHAM
Appellant
AND ANNE CHERYL WEIR
Respondent
Hearing: 21 November 2006
Court: Chambers, Robertson and Ellen France JJ
Counsel: Appellant in Person
B M Cunningham for Respondent
Judgment: 4 December 2006 at 3 pm
JUDGMENT OF THE COURT
CA228/05
A Leave to appeal is granted.
B The appeal is allowed.
C The High Court award of costs made on 9 August 2005 in favour of the
respondent is set aside.
D There will be no order as to costs in respect of the High Court or this
court.
CA229/05
E The appeal is dismissed.
IN THE COURT OF APPEAL OF NEW ZEALAND
CA228/05
CA229/05
BETWEEN SANDRA JEANETTE HOTHAM
Appellant
AND ANNE CHERYL WEIR
Respondent
Hearing: 21 November 2006
Court: Chambers, Robertson and Ellen France JJ
Counsel: Appellant in Person
B M Cunningham for Respondent
Judgment: 4 December 2006 at 3 pm
JUDGMENT OF THE COURT
CA228/05
A Leave to appeal is granted.
B The appeal is allowed.
C The High Court award of costs made on 9 August 2005 in favour of the
respondent is set aside.
D There will be no order as to costs in respect of the High Court or this
court.
CA229/05
E The appeal is dismissed.

...[23] Mr McCartney’s appearance was something of a surprise, as he had indicated in his pre-hearing memorandum that he would not be appearing at the hearing. He apparently advised the judge that he would not be taking part in the hearing, but said that he would remain as an observer. In these circumstances, the judge’s reference to Mr McCartney’s client’s “[opposing] the present application” is a little perplexing.
...[28] There was no possible justification for a costs order in favour of Mr McCartney’s clients. His clients had not filed a notice of opposition. Nor did Mr McCartney seek to take part in the proceeding before Laurenson J. A week later, in the Family Court, Judge Fleming recorded Mr McCartney’s clients’ stance as follows, at [3]:
If [Mr Gay’s s 49] application is made then both the estate represented by Ms Duffy QC and the other interested [parties] represented by Mr McCartney take the view that it would be appropriate that all the proceedings, including the substantive family protection proceedings, be transferred to the High Court.
[29] We are not, however, concerned with that particular costs order, since, as we have already stated, Mr McCartney’s clients have indicated that they do not intend to enforce it.
...[30] It seems equally clear that Mrs Weir should not get a costs order, given the stance she adopted in her notice of opposition, as set out at [6] above. It appears that at the hearing, Mr Gay’s stance wavered and became akin to opposition, although the passage from His Honour’s judgment we have quoted above at [24] would indicate that Mr Gay was still seeking “to have the matter transferred to [the High] Court”, albeit for a quite different reason from that which was motivating Mrs Hotham.
Later in the month, he advised the Family Court of his “unequivocal instructions” to apply to the High Court under s 49, which led to the transfer of the proceeding to that court, the very course Mrs Hotham and Mrs Weir had sought from the start, for their differing reasons.
[31] In these circumstances, Mrs Weir should not have been regarded as “the winner”. Mrs Hotham did not (immediately) get what she wanted, but nor did Mrs Weir. Had Laurenson J granted Mrs Hotham’s application, it would have been very unfair if Mrs Weir and Mr McCartney’s clients had been required to pay costs to Mrs Hotham, given their non-opposition to what was proposed. The converse must also apply.

That’s clearly not the right case, as it hasn’t been reported. The one you referred to was one that you claimed had been reported with “a one-line report saying that "In an unusual case, the discretion of a judge on costs was overturned””, and which they “had no choice but to report it as it was Court of Appeal ruling.” You further claimed that you had read the report in the New Zealand Law Reports.

Any chance of the citation?
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Old 21st May 2020, 10:58 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That’s clearly not the right case, as it hasn’t been reported. The one you referred to was one that you claimed had been reported with “a one-line report saying that "In an unusual case, the discretion of a judge on costs was overturned””, and which they “had no choice but to report it as it was Court of Appeal ruling.” You further claimed that you had read the report in the New Zealand Law Reports.

Any chance of the citation?
I stand corrected on where I read the one-line citation. But read it I did. My amazement at a one-line citation was unforgettable. NOW, the cases are mostly online.

It was a Court of Appeal case so look at the listing.

http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZCA/2006/332.html

However, this was not the case I looked at in the Law Library. The NZLR are not the only listing of case law. Obviously I only found the reference in a series of case law where they summarized the cases.

Thanks for pushing me to investigate further. If I went to the Law Library now, I am fairly sure I would be able to find the book I found the one-liner.

ETA. Just thinking. It may be the Law Reports. One needs a paid subscription to Lexis to access them. IIRC they come out once a year and review various topics. I found the reference under "Costs". Maybe the Wits University Law Library has them. I would have to subscribe to the Alumni to get access. Too difficult. Since you are so determined, why do you not pay a lawyer in NZ to look it up for you, and report back.

ETA2 http://www.lexisnexis.co.nz/en-nz/pr...w-reports.page
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Old 21st May 2020, 11:41 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Ah sorry for being confusing, my reply was strictly related to what was being considered initial conditions regarding the Langton's ant topic.
The starting position of the board is the initial conditions, which seem to be irrelevant when asking about the end patterns.
You changed the rules of the ant by adding 3a, which isn't the same as changing the initial conditions, so I was just posting to point that out.

Okay. But with an infinite sized chess board, how many choices of starting position does one have? Black or white. And in one move or two one may get to the alternative starting position, so there is actually no choice of starting position.

The choice of board pattern is an initial condition. It is likely with a simple set of rules that a type of pattern may emerge with different board patterns. And that the pattern is the same for any position start on the board if the first sequences can get it to the square that starts off the pattern.

A pattern "emerges". Why is this significant? One is following an algorithm.

Even if one got a box of air with random molecules, the random motion may just form patterns for a brief instant. One would need an infinite amount of time, but the degrees of freedom are huge.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 02:54 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I say that in 2009 God spoke to me and told me that humankind could not control over-population so he would do it with a severe pandemic. He confirmed the message was not just my imagination by having me learn of the Swine Flu pandemic the very next day and sending infected students to two places I was passing through in the next 4 days in New Zealand.

A week later I realized that Swine Flu was not the big one but just confirmation for me. I had to use the intervening years to learn about plagues and pandemics and get information relating to the what and why of the big one. Which has arrived pretty much according to plan, although I had to wait and watch. I also say that cell phone radiation is a factor in making the virus so much worse.

You can choose to think there might be some merit in what I say, or you can scoff. If God did talk to me, then this pandemic will result in massive societal change and a serious downward trend in population. One can prepare emotionally and contribute positively to the changes - or one can bemoan the fate of the world.

I know a number of religious people who feel that change is needed, but it will only occur with massive disaster to force the change.



ETA: And of course we are arguing about whether God exists.
2009?

With this massive delay, it's almost like "god" acts like a human (or like a human invented him).

Also, at this rate, humans will simply produce new humans while practically rendering the efforts of "god" meaningless.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 04:25 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
What’s going on in this thread?
It's wandering like a doped up ant but never coming close to the topic.

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Old 22nd May 2020, 04:33 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
2009?

With this massive delay, it's almost like "god" acts like a human...

Or maybe a committee.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 05:47 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Or maybe a committee.

The picture of a committee of "gods" having a heated debate on how to decimate those humans is really funny.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 08:04 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
2009?

With this massive delay, it's almost like "god" acts like a human (or like a human invented him).

Also, at this rate, humans will simply produce new humans while practically rendering the efforts of "god" meaningless.

I am a fast learner. But Gods lessons take time. I had to experience an event, think about it, and then various books and other articles would coincidentally come along which had relevant enlightening information. Then it was on to the next event. There could be weeks or months between events. The last and most critical lesson was that cell tower emfs cause long term subtle damage - and that it would not be noticed until very late.

Your imaginary (Marvel comics?) Gods apparently do not operate like real Gods. Hence your straw Gods are easy to discredit. You guys elevate the straw-man fallacy to a new level - the straw-God fallacy.

One lesson I have learned is that God is patient. He has been around for a very very long time. You focus on proof (a precise timing) rather than the thrust of the message - which is this one is going to be very bad. How long before hope turns to despair? I estimate (my personal guess) is that it will be five years or less.

Yesterday I was in really good health. Mentally and physically. Clearly there is hope for me. I got my blood pressure down using a bunch of natural techniques. Happily, it includes a small glass of red wine at the start and end of the day.

But this morning I went to the factory - and forgot my emf protection. This afternoon I had a mild headache (one I recognize as a "tower headache"). It is not just a headache. It also made me feel tired and drained. However, I am getting a grip on what is making me ill and also how to beat it. The stay-at-home lock-down did me some good. I learned how different a virus headache is as well.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 08:08 AM   #538
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Old 22nd May 2020, 08:23 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Okay. But with an infinite sized chess board, how many choices of starting position does one have? Black or white. And in one move or two one may get to the alternative starting position, so there is actually no choice of starting position.

The choice of board pattern is an initial condition. It is likely with a simple set of rules that a type of pattern may emerge with different board patterns. And that the pattern is the same for any position start on the board if the first sequences can get it to the square that starts off the pattern.

A pattern "emerges". Why is this significant? One is following an algorithm.

Even if one got a box of air with random molecules, the random motion may just form patterns for a brief instant. One would need an infinite amount of time, but the degrees of freedom are huge.
The choice of board pattern is an initial condition and as has been stated previously, it's irrelevant what that initial condition is regarding the pattern that emerges.

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Old 22nd May 2020, 09:14 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am a fast learner. But Gods lessons take time. I had to experience an event, think about it, and then various books and other articles would coincidentally come along which had relevant enlightening information. Then it was on to the next event. There could be weeks or months between events. The last and most critical lesson was that cell tower emfs cause long term subtle damage - and that it would not be noticed until very late.

Your imaginary (Marvel comics?) Gods apparently do not operate like real Gods. Hence your straw Gods are easy to discredit. You guys elevate the straw-man fallacy to a new level - the straw-God fallacy.

One lesson I have learned is that God is patient. He has been around for a very very long time. You focus on proof (a precise timing) rather than the thrust of the message - which is this one is going to be very bad. How long before hope turns to despair? I estimate (my personal guess) is that it will be five years or less.

Yesterday I was in really good health. Mentally and physically. Clearly there is hope for me. I got my blood pressure down using a bunch of natural techniques. Happily, it includes a small glass of red wine at the start and end of the day.

But this morning I went to the factory - and forgot my emf protection. This afternoon I had a mild headache (one I recognize as a "tower headache"). It is not just a headache. It also made me feel tired and drained. However, I am getting a grip on what is making me ill and also how to beat it. The stay-at-home lock-down did me some good. I learned how different a virus headache is as well.
And not one word on the fact that since 2009, humans have been constantly outgrowing the sinister efforts of the "Godly committee of reducing human numbers in most ineffective ways".
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Old 22nd May 2020, 09:45 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I stand corrected on where I read the one-line citation. But read it I did. My amazement at a one-line citation was unforgettable. NOW, the cases are mostly online.

It was a Court of Appeal case so look at the listing.

http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZCA/2006/332.html

However, this was not the case I looked at in the Law Library. The NZLR are not the only listing of case law. Obviously I only found the reference in a series of case law where they summarized the cases.

Thanks for pushing me to investigate further. If I went to the Law Library now, I am fairly sure I would be able to find the book I found the one-liner.

ETA. Just thinking. It may be the Law Reports. One needs a paid subscription to Lexis to access them. IIRC they come out once a year and review various topics. I found the reference under "Costs". Maybe the Wits University Law Library has them. I would have to subscribe to the Alumni to get access. Too difficult. Since you are so determined, why do you not pay a lawyer in NZ to look it up for you, and report back.

No, the Law Reports is a UK series, see for example this list of law reports at the University of Auckland. New Zealand cases only got reported there if they got as far as the Privy Council. And I’m not about to ask anyone to look for a report of a case if I don’t even have the case name. Especially if it’s something that’s needed to support your claim.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:41 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
The choice of board pattern is an initial condition and as has been stated previously, it's irrelevant what that initial condition is regarding the pattern that emerges.

Before reading your post I did more research on Langtons Ant. I thought the ant was constrained to a chess board. A blank grid or a grid with random black squares also works. All that happens is the number of steps to hit the right sequence of 104 steps.

I realize I was in too much of a hurry to think about the problem and was too dismissive. It does not change my stance on emergence or Langtons ant.

Here was an interesting site that was a good explanation. What was of interest was that one could inject random squares at various points. The same "highway" pattern will eventually "emerge".

http://datagenetics.com/blog/september22015/index.html

Here was another one
https://www.daviddarling.info/encycl...gtons_ant.html

My stance is that the rules have a "built-in" repetitive pattern that once it is triggered, it could continue to repeat ad infinitum. The initial "chaos" sets up a variety of random layouts for the ant. When the ant happens to hit the correct sequence to put it into the repeating pattern then it locks in.


http://web.science.mq.edu.au/~mattr/...nt_2/spec.html
If the ant is put on a finite grid it moves between periods of chaos and periods of order until the whole screen is (seemingly) random.


There are some things to notice. The rules must allow that the ant keeps going through the area it has "filled" with pseudo-random blocks. Otherwise, if it had a bias to a preferred direction or expanded without much revisiting, it likely would not get into a repetitive pattern unless the initial grid had enough just the right random sequence to cause the beginning of the repetitive cycle.

Going further I got this
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1807.08789.pdf
Dynamics of Langton’s ant allowed to periodically go straight.


This is kind of similar to my Initial Conditions 2) but it is inherently repetitive.

That is why I chose a random number to break the repetitiveness.

I must say that I do not see any "magic" in this.

I have never doubted that the Universe has been set up with a set of initial conditions (a blank slate of no space or time with an "ant" comprising a finite set of strange particles) and a set of "rules" (the Laws of Physics) that will tend to produce intelligent life.

It may be that even this is such a "long shot" that the Infinite Intelligence may decide to add some tweaks now and then to get the system to move towards more and more order.

It may even be that the Infinite Intelligence had to "seed" the Earth with a living cell that could reproduce itself, and ensure that it did not get wiped out.

I do think that the "path" we are on is being manipulated by the Infinite Intelligence using God. Hence the message I got. Otherwise we might just get chaos and die-out completely.


The bottom line is that you have actually made my hypothesis stronger.

Thank you for teaching me another lesson. I find it ironical that God might have used you.

Today, a radio announcer had a religious debate. He is an atheist and likes to trounce people with his debating skills. Today he argued the question "If God is good why does he allow bad things to happen." One caller answered that we were given free will. The radio host argued that a good God could limit our choices to prevent really bad things. He also said that if God was on the side of the callers they would have an unbeatable argument. How am I doing?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:46 AM   #543
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The 'free will' answer to the "why do bad things happen" question does not, of course, account for the bad things which are not a consequence of free will, i.e. the majority of them. Earthquakes, tsunamis, cancer, freak accidents, pandemics ...
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:46 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
No, the Law Reports is a UK series, see for example this list of law reports at the University of Auckland. New Zealand cases only got reported there if they got as far as the Privy Council. And I’m not about to ask anyone to look for a report of a case if I don’t even have the case name. Especially if it’s something that’s needed to support your claim.

Sigh. You win. I am beaten into submission. Your request is too difficult for me to keep going, and I see it as pointless and not achieving anything.

BTW - No, the Law Reports is a UK series... I meant NZLR - since we are talking about NZ I thought I could leave off the NZ.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:48 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The 'free will' answer to the "why do bad things happen" question does not, of course, account for the bad things which are not a consequence of free will, i.e. the majority of them. Earthquakes, tsunamis, cancer, freak accidents, pandemics ...

Not to mention an asteroid that created the Moon, and another that got rid of the dinosaurs to allow mammals to emerge.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 12:04 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Sigh. You win. I am beaten into submission. Your request is too difficult for me to keep going, and I see it as pointless and not achieving anything.

BTW - No, the Law Reports is a UK series... I meant NZLR - since we are talking about NZ I thought I could leave off the NZ.

Again, the NZLRs don’t fit, they publish monthly, and fully report the cases they cover. And in the very post I was replying to, and quoted, you implied that it wasn’t in the NZLRs:
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic
However, this was not the case I looked at in the Law Library. The NZLR are not the only listing of case law. Obviously I only found the reference in a series of case law where they summarized the cases.

But even a summarised report would give the reasons for the decision, otherwise it wouldn’t be worth printing.

But I agree, finding a reference to a report of a case when you don’t know the series it was published in or the names of the parties is probably too difficult.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 12:24 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Before reading your post I did more research on Langtons Ant. I thought the ant was constrained to a chess board. A blank grid or a grid with random black squares also works. All that happens is the number of steps to hit the right sequence of 104 steps.

I realize I was in too much of a hurry to think about the problem and was too dismissive. It does not change my stance on emergence or Langtons ant.

Here was an interesting site that was a good explanation. What was of interest was that one could inject random squares at various points. The same "highway" pattern will eventually "emerge".

http://datagenetics.com/blog/september22015/index.html

Here was another one
https://www.daviddarling.info/encycl...gtons_ant.html

My stance is that the rules have a "built-in" repetitive pattern that once it is triggered, it could continue to repeat ad infinitum. The initial "chaos" sets up a variety of random layouts for the ant. When the ant happens to hit the correct sequence to put it into the repeating pattern then it locks in.


http://web.science.mq.edu.au/~mattr/...nt_2/spec.html
If the ant is put on a finite grid it moves between periods of chaos and periods of order until the whole screen is (seemingly) random.


There are some things to notice. The rules must allow that the ant keeps going through the area it has "filled" with pseudo-random blocks. Otherwise, if it had a bias to a preferred direction or expanded without much revisiting, it likely would not get into a repetitive pattern unless the initial grid had enough just the right random sequence to cause the beginning of the repetitive cycle.

Going further I got this
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1807.08789.pdf
Dynamics of Langton’s ant allowed to periodically go straight.


This is kind of similar to my Initial Conditions 2) but it is inherently repetitive.

That is why I chose a random number to break the repetitiveness.

I must say that I do not see any "magic" in this.

I have never doubted that the Universe has been set up with a set of initial conditions (a blank slate of no space or time with an "ant" comprising a finite set of strange particles) and a set of "rules" (the Laws of Physics) that will tend to produce intelligent life.

It may be that even this is such a "long shot" that the Infinite Intelligence may decide to add some tweaks now and then to get the system to move towards more and more order.

It may even be that the Infinite Intelligence had to "seed" the Earth with a living cell that could reproduce itself, and ensure that it did not get wiped out.

I do think that the "path" we are on is being manipulated by the Infinite Intelligence using God. Hence the message I got. Otherwise we might just get chaos and die-out completely.


The bottom line is that you have actually made my hypothesis stronger.

Thank you for teaching me another lesson. I find it ironical that God might have used you.

Today, a radio announcer had a religious debate. He is an atheist and likes to trounce people with his debating skills. Today he argued the question "If God is good why does he allow bad things to happen." One caller answered that we were given free will. The radio host argued that a good God could limit our choices to prevent really bad things. He also said that if God was on the side of the callers they would have an unbeatable argument. How am I doing?
Happy to help with your research,

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Altered Initial condition 1)
The grid consists of a chess board modified by adding a black square to the right of each original black square moving the others to the right. Or any other non-chess-board pattern.

Onto this grid you place a simple ant. This ant follows some very simple rules.

1. Move one square forward.
2. If the square it lands on is black, change it to white and turn to the left.
3. If the square it lands on is white, change it to black and turn to the right.
4. Repeat forever.

What pattern of black and white squares will the ant make, in your opinion?

Altered Initial condition 2)
The grid consists of a regular chess board pattern.

Onto this grid you place a simple ant. This ant follows some very simple rules.

1. Move one square forward.
2. If the square it lands on is black, change it to white and turn to the left.
3. If the square it lands on is white, change it to black and turn to the right.
3a. Every tenth move must be a forward move using the next digit in the number Pi (or "e") for the number of forward steps.
4. Repeat forever.

What pattern of black and white squares will the ant make, in your opinion?

Apparently the exact same pattern?
twas this that I was replying to originally, as it seemed you weren't sure what was an initial condition in the question that another poster asked.

But now that's all sorted and you get that changing the ant rules is different from changing the initial conditions, i will post the question that was asked to you before I rudely interrupted.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And now we all know for certain that you do not comprehend emergence.

I specifically asked you what pattern would the ant form. And you equally specifically refused to answer.

So again I ask what pattern will the ant infallibly form. The initial conditions are irrelevant because they have NO effect on the outcome.

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Old 22nd May 2020, 01:01 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Are you serious that the second example will ever make a pattern?

I was being seriously facetious.

Randomness has been introduced fairly frequently into that example.

Are you asking for a description of the pattern or a name? I do not know what sort of answer you want. And why would that "pattern" demonstrate emergence?
You introduced an extra rule that does not exist in Langtons Ant. That is dishonest.

What pattern will Langton's Ant always make regardless of the initial state of the board?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 01:04 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
All of this discussion relates to the emergence of intelligence, if I remember correctly. I went back to the Prime Cause.

The Prime Cause would decide what board to use - namely the amount of matter and antimatter would be used and how it would be packed or arranged. It would also decide what the rules would be - namely the Laws of Physics. And it would decide on the physical constants - an incredibly small change in one or more would apparently result in a chaotic universe.

Irrelevant to what? For some reason I feel I am debating while blind folded. There are oblique references that I find confusing.
So you have no understanding of emergence.

In the Langton's Ant example, WE are the prime cause and WE have set the limited rules applying to the ant.

Trying to change those is dishonest.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 01:10 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Okay. But with an infinite sized chess board, how many choices of starting position does one have? Black or white. And in one move or two one may get to the alternative starting position, so there is actually no choice of starting position.
Irrelevant. And you don't understand why.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The choice of board pattern is an initial condition. It is likely with a simple set of rules that a type of pattern may emerge with different board patterns.
It isn't a "type of pattern" There is only on possible pattern. What is it?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And that the pattern is the same for any position start on the board if the first sequences can get it to the square that starts off the pattern.
And if they are all white or all black?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
A pattern "emerges". Why is this significant? One is following an algorithm.
Where does the algorithm describe the pattern? Or give rules for the pattern? Or even mention a pattern?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Even if one got a box of air with random molecules, the random motion may just form patterns for a brief instant. One would need an infinite amount of time, but the degrees of freedom are huge.
Except once Langton's ant starts creating the pattern, it never stops, ever.

What pattern does it make?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 04:00 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I say that in 2009 God spoke to me and told me that humankind could not control over-population so he would do it with a severe pandemic. He confirmed the message was not just my imagination by having me learn of the Swine Flu pandemic the very next day and sending infected students to two places I was passing through in the next 4 days in New Zealand.
I told you nothing of the sort.

Quote:
*snip*

You can choose to think there might be some merit in what I say, or you can scoff. If God did talk to me, then this pandemic will result in massive societal change and a serious downward trend in population. One can prepare emotionally and contribute positively to the changes - or one can bemoan the fate of the world.
I did not.

Quote:
I know a number of religious people who feel that change is needed, but it will only occur with massive disaster to force the change.



ETA: And of course we are arguing about whether God exists.
Of course I exist.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:16 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You introduced an extra rule that does not exist in Langtons Ant. That is dishonest.

What pattern will Langton's Ant always make regardless of the initial state of the board?

Langton's ant will make a "highway" pattern.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:26 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
(snip)

Except once Langton's ant starts creating the pattern, it never stops, ever.

What pattern does it make?

It never stops if the board is blank or is a chess board.

It does stop for a short while if there are random black squares in its path. However, it will circle around that spot until it is able to reform.

The rules predispose the ant to form a 104 step repetitive pattern. It can be disturbed but it wants to reform - over and over.

If one put the 104 step on the board to start with, the ant would never do any random (pardon - pseudo-random) moves.

I do not doubt that the algorithm has a predisposed and inherent repetitive pattern built into it, and that the pattern will eventually form.

Emerge in this context is a word to describe to process of "eventually forming". How does that support your argument? I say it supports mine.

You clearly are not reading and understanding my posts.

ETA: I just thought of one initial condition of black squares on the grid that will stop the "highway" forming. Can you? Or anyone else? I may be wrong but let us go down this "highway".
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:31 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I told you nothing of the sort.



I did not.



Of course I exist.

I can recognize a false god. (Must be the helmet. )
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:35 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Happy to help with your research,



twas this that I was replying to originally, as it seemed you weren't sure what was an initial condition in the question that another poster asked.

But now that's all sorted and you get that changing the ant rules is different from changing the initial conditions, i will post the question that was asked to you before I rudely interrupted.

You were not rude. You assisted. Good on you.

I have answered. And gone a bit further down the "highway" of knowledge. Interesting area of study. I may get into writing software to do some of this sort of stuff. I see no point in re-inventing the wheel so I will copy whatever is out there and change it to suit.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:01 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I do not doubt that the algorithm has a predisposed and inherent repetitive pattern built into it, and that the pattern will eventually form.
Where?

Quote:
Emerge in this context is a word to describe to process of "eventually forming". How does that support your argument? I say it supports mine.
The point of this example is that a set of very simple rules, with no purpose built into them, will eventually produce complex behaviour which looks purposeful.

Here's an excellent piece, derived from an interactive exhibit, which takes you by the hand and guides you through it.

https://serendipstudio.org/complexit...ant/index.html
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:07 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I can recognize a false god. (Must be the helmet. )
Your lack of faith is disturbing.

I am your God. The Alpha and the Omega.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:27 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The past week has caused my blood pressure to sky-rocket. The electrosmog causes it. I am now using personal shielding when I go out our home. I have to cut way back on my calorie intake and do some serious walking three times a day.
This will help. The tinfoil not so much.

Your high blood pressure is probably caused by poor diet and lack of exercise. You only think it's 'electrosmog' because you can see the towers and theorized a cause that doesn't actually exist, and confirmation bias did the rest. There is no evidence for 'electrosmog' from cellphone towers causing high blood pressure, and no mechanism for it. But there are well-known diet-related causes, and exercise will make you feel better as well as improving general health.

Don't just talk about it, do it. 5 years ago my doctor told me I had to lose weight to get my blood pressure and cholesterol level down. I cut out fat and sugar, halved the meat and increased the vegetable content of my meals, drink only water and stick to a strict regime of 30~40 minutes exercise per day. I now feel 10 years younger!
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:22 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I say that in 2009 God spoke to me and told me that humankind could not control over-population so he would do it with a severe pandemic. He confirmed the message was not just my imagination by having me learn of the Swine Flu pandemic the very next day and sending infected students to two places I was passing through in the next 4 days in New Zealand.
Why don't you tell us the full truth. It wasn't students, God told you to start the Swine Flu pandemic.

But God didn't start Covid-19. It was man-made, created by Trump to kill brown people and liberals, and give him a 'wartime president' popularity boost. Only problem is, like everything Trump touches it turned to ****.

How do we know this? There's plenty of evidence. As soon as he got into power, Trump gutted the CDC and threw away Obama's pandemic response plans. The US government was funding a lab in Wuhan province in China. Trump put pressure on China by blocking trade until they agreed to release the virus (timelines of the trade agreement and estimated virus release date are a perfect match!). He then deliberately downplayed the spread (calling it a 'hoax') to make sure it got a hold on all the liberal eastern states.

He also refused to lock down the country, and impounded medical supplies destined for states he wanted to infect. To cover it up he constantly made outlandish statements that made it look like the lack of effective action was due to incompetence, but it was just another part of his nefarious scheme.

In case you think this is just a conspiracy theory, consider this: Trump all but confessed to doing it, when he said,

Quote:
I've always known this is a real – this is a pandemic. I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic.
Yes, Trump knew about it before anyone else, because he created it!

And finally, Trump admits that he has been taking hydroxychloroquine for 'weeks' - but actually a lot longer than that. One of the side effects it can cause is orange skin, which Trump has had for years! This is absolute proof that Trump planned the pandemic several years ago.
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Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 23rd May 2020 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:52 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I can recognize a false god. (Must be the helmet. )

Should it be made from tinfoil?
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