The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread

Lplus said:

I wonder what they would say if you asked them.

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Tomboy said:

That, again, seems to be more an indication of quality of life, though, or, more specifically, lack of good quality of life because of limitations from declining health and other factors. Do you think he would have felt the same were he in good health?

My mom is 74 and my dad is 85. Both still live independently, do their own in store shopping (when not prevented by doing so by a pandemic) participate in various hobbies and activities, and exercise multiple times a week. Dad regularly goes for 5 mile bike rides and several mile walks, and mom likes to switch it up between youtube workouts in home, outdoor group exercise classes with other members of their 55+ community, and multi-mile walks on nearby trails.

If I'm honest, despite both of them having various health issues, they're probably in better shape and are more active than I am at 44 years old. Their existing health issues mean that neither is likely to survive Covid 19, but that's different from saying that their quality of life is so poor that death would be a desired outcome.

Dad's starting to slip cognitively a bit, but he still works part time remotely from home. Mom is sharp as a tack and has been enjoying various zoom classes in lieu of her usual in person church and community group classes.

There's no doubt in my mind that both value their lives and wish to continue living as long as their current quality of life can be maintained. There's also no doubt in my mind that were their quality of life to drastically decline to the point that they're not able to do the things they enjoy now, they'd be in a very different state of mind.

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zooterkin said:

Not sure why I would specifically ask that, but since the lockdown started, I’ve been talking to my mum every three days, and she is in very good spirits. Looking forward to the day when she can see her great-grandchildren again, taking part in zoom meetings with church members, baking, gardening, researching the family tree.

All I was pointing out was that age alone is not enough to determine whether someone has a decent quality of life. Not everyone over 70 is in God’s waiting room.

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I’m sorry to hear about your father, but you refer to ‘his condition’, so it sounds as though there was something more than just age involved.

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These are my observations (of hospitalized patients):

1) Everybody is so swollen their skin has blisters and is so tight it looks like it’s about to burst, from head to heel. And skin so dry peeling and flaky that to slather Vaseline on every shift is almost necessary — all over.

2) Everybody’s skin is weeping clear fluid and has sores and the skin just slides off with slightest turn or rub, all over the body.

3) Everybody’s blood is thick as slush. Can’t figure out what’s making it clot like that, but it’s dark and thick.

4) Everybody’s kidneys are failing. Urine dark or red, which could contribute to the swelling, but we don’t know yet.

5) Everybody has an abnormal heart rhythm. Not sure of the cause. But even without underlying heart problems, it’s not beating normally.

6) Seems counterproductive, but the ones that are not breathing on the ventilator have to lay flat on their stomachs to breathe better. And even some on the ventilator are on their stomachs. And the slightest turn for some is what leads to their almost immediate death. Bathing, cleaning and turning to prevent skin breakdown causes most to code blue, so a decision has to be made on which is most important.

7) Everyone has a Foley catheter and a rectal tube — incontinent of bowel and bladder.

8) Everybody on tube feeding. Everybody.

Never before in my entire career have I seen a disease process attack in this way.

— 20-year veteran nurse in NYC via Dr. Dee Knight

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Darat said:

I'm going to strongly disagree with you. Many of those older people that have died would have in a better society and culture already have been allowed to die or euthanised long before the virus hit them, mainly the ones with various forms of cognitive degenerative diseases. To be blunt their life is not as important to save as say a 45 year old for example. And whilst our society may try to fool itself that we don't have such a view that is exposed to be the lie it is by the value we place on the care for those people.

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JeanTate said:

Less than a month later (oh how time flies)

Per the same source, states with >1k recorded covid-19 deaths (green=change in rank):

1: 28,743 New York NY
2: 10,985 New Jersey NJ

03: 6,148 Massachusetts MA
04: 5,129 Michigan MI
05: 4,985 Pennsylvania PA
06: 4,607 Illinois IL
07: 3,604 California CA
08: 3,583 Connecticut CT
09: 2,629 Louisiana LA
10: 2,207 Maryland MA
11: 2,190 Florida FL
12: 1,940 Indiana IN (new)
13: 1,837 Ohio OH (new)
14: 1,783 Georgia GA
15: 1,461 Texas TX (new)
16: 1,310 Colorado CO (new)
17: 1,137 Virginia VA (double new)
18: 1,044 Washington WA (new)

19: 851 Minnesota MN (new)
20: 764 Arizona AZ (new)
21: 759 North Carolina NC (new)
22: 672 Missouri MO (new)
23: 595 Mississippi MS (new)
25: 579 Rhode Island RI (new)
26: 533 Alabama AL (new)

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At the next update, which among the [19,26] will jump into the >1k group?

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Will NY and NJ have any company, in 2020 (>10k)?

How many states will eventually, in 2020, record >1k Covid-19 deaths?

<snip>

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The Atheist said:

<snip>

I said way back in the first few pages that the pragmatic approach would be to let the virus run for that very reason. The people it's killing are the ones that take up the majority of health budgets, so chopping them out would be the economically soundest approach.

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It looks like that will happen anyway.

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JeanTate said:

Just over a month later ...


Source this time is the COVID Tracking Project.
<snip>(

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Lplus said:

I don't disagree at all, I never said that all those over 70 would wish to end it all, but simply point out that some who are frail and ill may feel that it offers them an escape from their inevitable further decline.

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zooterkin said:

Not everyone over 70 is in God’s waiting room.

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rjh01 said:

Here is a job for you. Which of these states are ruled by a Republican leader and which are Democratic and which are other? See if this makes a difference. Heard on the news yesterday it did. Maybe you can confirm that.

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Roger Ramjets said:

I can think of much nicer ways to go, and I hope I am given the option. My mother had cancer and was suffering more pain than she should have because she had been warned about becoming addicted to painkillers. The doctor said just take as much as you want - better to go out happy than in pain. She died at 49.

Retirement ages around the World are being pushed up to 70 and beyond because people are living longer. So on the one hand you don't deserve a pension because you are too fit, but on other hand you don't deserve to live because you are too old?

But of course we all know why - money. Why should I (a 'young' person) have to give up some of my hard-earned income to support old people? Why should my bank balance suffer so they don't die of a disease that I will easily get over? I mean, what did old people ever do for me?

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Lplus said:

As my father entered his last years of life he often expressed his disappointment that he had woken up that morning and would have to go through yet another day of struggle on his way to death. As his condition got worse he asked me more than once if I knew of any way he could get out of the inevitable decline into bedridden incontinence that was indeed his final lot. Being asked by your own father for a means to euthanasia does tend to make you wonder just who's life is being discussed.

So yes, I do have reason to think the answer may be different.

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The first case of covid-19 in New Zealand was recorded on 28 February. Like most countries, it initially planned to gradually tighten its control measures as the virus gained momentum. But Baker, a public health expert at the University of Otago who is on the government’s covid-19 advisory panel, believed that this was the wrong approach. “I thought we should do it in the reverse order and throw everything at the pandemic at the start,” he says.

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pipelineaudio said:

I've got a real problem here in Hawaii where politicians, local leaders and people in general think I have betrayed them and they are really unable to hold to the recommended policies anymore.

I did as much as I could since the beginning to really push and link and explain the science behind this and what the sensible policies were and many of the people involved.

After fighting very very very hard to convince their constituents, the local leaders were able to get mask wearing and distancing to become culturally accepted, and often would share videos I linked of health experts.

Now many of those same experts have come out in videos saying "social justice is more important than social distancing" as if that's some dichotomy, and outright encouraging protestors massed up in a ball with no masks and no possibility of distancing.

So now I'm a liar

Now all of the push these leaders have had to try and save the local people is out the window and many will not be reelected.

I want to barf, I feel so betrayed

Before anyone goes stupid tribal (which seems to be the ^&^^^&%# problem thru this whole goddamn thing, worse than the virus), a short glance would tell you the political leanings here, so can't just go full TDS, its just people, who feel betrayed.

PEOPLE, not tribes, not left or right, not politics

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marting said:

Why New Zealand decided to go for full elimination of the coronavirus

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...elimination-of-the-coronavirus/#ixzz6QLN4bsax

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JeanTate said:

A more interesting perspective might be which states seem to have Covid-19 sorta under control (e.g. NY, NJ, CT, MA, MD: blue), and which do not (e.g. NV, OK, FL, SC, AZ, TX: red). OR seems to be an outlier (blue, but high Rt).

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marting said:

Why New Zealand decided to go for full elimination of the coronavirus

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...elimination-of-the-coronavirus/#ixzz6QLN4bsax

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EHocking said:

I don’t see the reason for all this panic in Australia and NZ over a few small outbreaks.

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Radiation, instead, attempts to prevent cytokines from being overproduced in the first place, by targeting lymphocytes.

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The tests could place an unnecessary burden on the NHS, the 14 senior academics say in a letter in the BMJ,

Last month, the government said it had bought 10 million antibody tests and asked NHS trusts and care homes to make them available to staff in England.

The group of scientists say as a positive result is unable to prove immunity, the tests offer "no benefit" to hospitals and care staff.

The results do not change what personal protective equipment staff must wear, for example.

The academics also suggest there is little data on how well the test works for people at highest risk - including people belonging to some ethnic minorities and older patients.

Instead, they call for other carefully designed strategies to help monitor the spread of the virus.

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Steve said:

But I have already described my mother’s life. She is in excellent health and is able to take care of all her own needs. She employs a housekeeper because she can afford to, not because she needs to. My mother is not “struggling” by any definition of the word. She has no “condition” to struggle with. (Well, she is having cataract surgery on Tuesday if you want to count that). Honestly, your question after quoting my description of my mother’s life strikes me as rather odd. Almost as if you didn’t actually read my post before you quoted it. To emphasize, at 86 my mother is leading a great life and wants it to continue as long as possible. Her mother lived to 98 and it was only the last two years or so that were difficult for her.

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