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Old 24th June 2020, 10:33 AM   #361
TellyKNeasuss
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
(nods)No one gripes about the fire department or poison control or even the DMV being racist...so if those agencies can be fair and unbiased in their dealings with the public, I'm sure LE can be too.
Police officers and fire fighters tend to have different types of personalities, so it is rare that there is a confrontation between fire fighters and civilians.

There isn't much griping about fire departments being racist in the level of service they provide, but in many places there is griping about the racial composition of fire departments.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:07 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's not whether they work for the government, or more accurately the state. It's whether people in that profession only work for the state.

The practical reason people don't need a license to be a police officer is because there should already be public bodies that investigate alleged misconduct and can subject police to disciplinary sanctions upto and including dismissals and prohibiting them from ever working as a police officer.
.....
As I noted above, most states do impose a form of licensing for police officers. The mechanism for tougher enforcement already exists. What's lacking is sufficient will.
https://www.aclum.org/en/licensing-police-officers
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:44 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss;13136360[HILITE
]Police officers and fire fighters tend to have different types of personalities[/hilite], so it is rare that there is a confrontation between fire fighters and civilians.
Got a cite for that claim?
The jobs are fundamentally different and the causes of the interactions between the police and public in comparison to firefighters and public are so completely different any comparison between the two is incredibly spurious



Quote:
There isn't much griping about fire departments being racist in the level of service they provide, but in many places there is griping about the racial composition of fire departments.
Again - the jobs are so radically different any comparison is absurd.
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Old 26th June 2020, 07:47 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Police officers and fire fighters tend to have different types of personalities, so it is rare that there is a confrontation between fire fighters and civilians.

There isn't much griping about fire departments being racist in the level of service they provide, but in many places there is griping about the racial composition of fire departments.
I don't know which FD you're talking about, but the firefighters I've had the pleasure of interacting with are some of the most racist, criminally inclined people I've ever met.
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Old 26th June 2020, 09:02 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I don't know which FD you're talking about, but the firefighters I've had the pleasure of interacting with are some of the most racist, criminally inclined people I've ever met.
You left out alcoholic.
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Old 26th June 2020, 11:51 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
We may also have differing ideas of what constitutes "abuse".
Given your apologism for police misconduct in the other thread I'd hope so.
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Old 26th June 2020, 11:54 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A little surprised that no-one's posted this yet:

The Stats on Police Killings

By Steven Novella. The issue is also discussed extensively on the latest episode of The Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast.
Fairly horrifying. Thanks for that.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:57 AM   #368
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An interesting assessment of what police actually do.
Quote:
But police mostly spend their time on noncriminal matters, including patrol, paperwork, noise complaints, traffic infractions and people in distress. An observational study in Criminal Justice Review shows that patrol officers, who make up most of police forces, spend about one-third of their time on random patrol, one-fifth responding to non-crime calls and about 17 percent responding to crime-related calls — the vast majority of which are misdemeanors. About 13 percent of their workday is devoted to administrative tasks and 9 percent to personal activities (such as eating). The remaining 7 percent of the time, officers are dealing with the public, providing assistance or information, problem solving and attending community meetings. A 2019 Vera Institute of Justice report found that fewer than 5 percent of arrests are related to serious violent crimes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...25a_story.html
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:24 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
An interesting assessment of what police actually do.
Quote:
But police mostly spend their time on noncriminal matters, including patrol, paperwork, noise complaints, traffic infractions and people in distress. An observational study in Criminal Justice Review shows that patrol officers, who make up most of police forces, spend about one-third of their time on random patrol, one-fifth responding to non-crime calls and about 17 percent responding to crime-related calls — the vast majority of which are misdemeanors. About 13 percent of their workday is devoted to administrative tasks and 9 percent to personal activities (such as eating). The remaining 7 percent of the time, officers are dealing with the public, providing assistance or information, problem solving and attending community meetings. A 2019 Vera Institute of Justice report found that fewer than 5 percent of arrests are related to serious violent crimes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...25a_story.html
So they don't spend most of their time chasing down innocent minorities and killing them like the current narrative is claiming?
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:54 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
So they don't spend most of their time chasing down innocent minorities and killing them like the current narrative is claiming?
It means they don't spend most of their time risking their lives to save helpless citizens from bloodthirsty marauders, which is the narrative they promote. It means that a lot of what cops do could be done competently and safely by unarmed civilians who are less prepared -- if not inclined -- to kill people.
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:06 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It means they don't spend most of their time risking their lives to save helpless citizens from bloodthirsty marauders, which is the narrative they promote. It means that a lot of what cops do could be done competently and safely by unarmed civilians who are less prepared -- if not inclined -- to kill people.
If you read my posts you would see that I strongly disagree with the myth that policing is a dangerous job.
I also disagree with the idea that all police are racists and that all police agencies practice systemic racism.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:09 PM   #372
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In my long career (approaching 50 years) I pretty much concur that most police officers spend most of their time on rather mundane activities. Just “routine patrol” absorbs much of an officer’s time.
Most “calls for service” are either simple theft or vandalism reports, or someone wanting to complain about some sort of activity in their neighborhood. Speeding cars, barking dogs, other annoyances.
Now and again we get reports of some sort of “crime in progress” that demands an emergency response.... But most of our emergency response is for traffic accidents.

If you work communications, as I did for some years, by far the largest volume of calls are either requests for information... “Isn’t it against the law to....” or someone just wanting an ear to bend, and the police are handy.

That some of these tasks could be better handled by non-police personnel... But again, who’s available 24/7/365?
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:20 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
.....
But again, who’s available 24/7/365?
The short answer is "Anybody who is paid to be." Firefighters, EMTs and hospital staff are obvious examples. If police provided backup to staff social workers responding to domestic violence or disturbed person calls, maybe they would be less likely to escalate into confrontations. The bottom line for a cop is "Do what I say or else;" a social worker might be able to say "How can we solve this problem together?"

How would you assess the death/murder of Elijah McCain as an example of police performance?
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/0...l-prosecution/

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Old 29th June 2020, 04:25 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
....
I also disagree with the idea that all police are racists and that all police agencies practice systemic racism.
Nobody thinks all cops are racists. But it's indisputable that the criminal justice system treats black people more harshly than whites, and that good cops protect or at least tolerate the bad ones. In Minneapolis, there were three cops who could have pulled Chauvin off Floyd, but instead they helped him commit murder.
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Old 29th June 2020, 10:02 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Nobody thinks all cops are racists. But it's indisputable that the criminal justice system treats black people more harshly than whites, and that good cops protect or at least tolerate the bad ones. In Minneapolis, there were three cops who could have pulled Chauvin off Floyd, but instead they helped him commit murder.
I think all people are racist, so...
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:10 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I think all people are racist, so...
This should be accepted knowledge. Unfortunately where it goes off the rails is that your level of racism is, undoubtedly, worse than mine.

Mine is the "good" racism. The racism that never spills over into my everyday life. The racism that will allow me to happily stand up for a minority in trouble... but would rather they weren't part of my immediate family. But hey! If they were... I'd suck it up and get on with it (but they'd never know that I'd rather they weren't around).

You see me in public, interacting with all creeds and colours, you'd never know. You see my posts and shares on social media, you'd never know. You might get a clue with what I don't post or share, but you'd never know because...I'm a quiet racist, and a quiet racist is a "good" racist.

(in 3,2....1)
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:16 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Police officers and fire fighters tend to have different types of personalities, so it is rare that there is a confrontation between fire fighters and civilians.

There isn't much griping about fire departments being racist in the level of service they provide, but in many places there is griping about the racial composition of fire departments.
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Got a cite for that claim?
The jobs are fundamentally different and the causes of the interactions between the police and public in comparison to firefighters and public are so completely different any comparison between the two is incredibly spurious





Again - the jobs are so radically different any comparison is absurd.
Having known, and working directly with, both firefighters and police officers over a good number of years, I can tell you from experience, there is one trait I found conspicuously missing in the personalities of firefighters that, unfortunately, is all too present within the ranks of the police.
That would be the semi-sociopathic, powertrip jackass* that finds themselves attracted to the law enforcement profession. Find a way to weed these jerks out of policing and the line between Cops and Firefighters will begin to blur significantly.



*It's worth noting, this trait is 100% colorblind.
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Old 30th June 2020, 03:46 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Having known, and working directly with, both firefighters and police officers over a good number of years, I can tell you from experience, there is one trait I found conspicuously missing in the personalities of firefighters that, unfortunately, is all too present within the ranks of the police.
That would be the semi-sociopathic, powertrip jackass* that finds themselves attracted to the law enforcement profession. Find a way to weed these jerks out of policing and the line between Cops and Firefighters will begin to blur significantly.



*It's worth noting, this trait is 100% colorblind.

I would suggest that you did not work with enough cops to make such a broad and prejudicial statement encompassing millions of police officers around the world.
A lot of people hate all cops because of personal prejudices that have nothing to do with the behaviour of cops in general.
Most of the people that I worked with hated cops because their girlfriends usually dumped them for good looking and obviously more viral cops.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:18 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
No one gripes about the fire department or poison control or even the DMV being racist...so if those agencies can be fair and unbiased in their dealings with the public, I'm sure LE can be too.
Almost everybody's experience of the fire department is of them coming to get somebody out of trouble, and at worst they are unlikely to make the situation worse than if they hadn't turned up. The nature of police work is different, a lot of their interactions are going to make somebody's day worse and if they screw up they can easily make the situation worse.

Most people don't like getting told they've done something wrong even if it's true and some will rationalize it as being unfairly targeted. Even if the police and the fire department was entirely populated by saints who couldn't see race, the police would still get accused of racism far more than the fire department.

The easiest way to begin to narrow the gap would be to give the fire department a role inspecting peoples homes and fining them if they had too many devices plugged in to an electrical outlet, or had left firedoors left open.

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Old 30th June 2020, 07:45 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
...Most of the people that I worked with hated cops because their girlfriends usually dumped them for good looking and obviously more viral cops.
A definite warning to NOT **** da police.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:47 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Most of the people that I worked with hated cops because their girlfriends usually dumped them for good looking and obviously more viral cops.
Ones having contacted COVID-19?


At least you didn't write "vile"!
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:51 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Ones having contacted COVID-19?
At least you didn't write "vile"!
So do you have an address or a phone number to contact COVID-19?

Muphry's law.WP
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:00 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Having known, and working directly with, both firefighters and police officers over a good number of years, I can tell you from experience, there is one trait I found conspicuously missing in the personalities of firefighters that, unfortunately, is all too present within the ranks of the police.
That would be the semi-sociopathic, powertrip jackass* that finds themselves attracted to the law enforcement profession. Find a way to weed these jerks out of policing and the line between Cops and Firefighters will begin to blur significantly.



*It's worth noting, this trait is 100% colorblind.
I can tell you from experience, that trait is thriving among firefighters in NY.
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Old 1st July 2020, 07:12 AM   #384
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I'll tell you to do with the police. Support them. Defunding the police forces would be a social disaster. The only people with issues concerning the police is that they judge the entire profession by the acts of a few bad apples.

What would take the place of the police? No police or law enforcement means anarchy which is what a lot of left-wingers seem to want.
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:29 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I'll tell you to do with the police. Support them. Defunding the police forces would be a social disaster. The only people with issues concerning the police is that they judge the entire profession by the acts of a few bad apples.

What would take the place of the police? No police or law enforcement means anarchy which is what a lot of left-wingers seem to want.

Defunding the police doesn't mean eliminating them. It means restructuring them to better serve the public, and establishing alternative services that would make a call to 911 the last choice rather than the only choice.
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:36 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The only people with issues concerning the police is that they judge the entire profession by the acts of a few bad apples.
It seems to me that the issue is that the entire profession closes ranks to defend the actions of those few bad apples every time. This sends out the strong message that it's quite proper to judge the entire profession by the actions of a few bad apples, because it actively supports those actions.

Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
What would take the place of the police?
A better run police service, like many other countries have. The choice is not simply between either a brutal army of occupation with carte blanche to commit murder, or complete anarchy.

Dave
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:39 AM   #387
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Speaking of racist cops:
Quote:
In 2006, the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew America’s police forces had a white-supremacist problem. But the internal report the agency compiled that year was so heavily redacted that almost no one knows what it contained.

Now, amid national protests over police brutality against Black Americans and new scrutiny of racist cops, lawmakers are pushing for the report’s full release.

A nearly blank version of the October 2006 report, titled “White Supremacist Infiltration of Law Enforcement,” has circled the internet for years, after it was released in a Freedom of Information request. The few unredacted lines are worrying: In addition to warning of historic attempts by groups like the Ku Klux Klan to gain employment with police, it refers to white-supremacist leaders’ “recent rhetoric” calling on followers to infiltrate police forces.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside...premacist-cops
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:43 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Defunding the police doesn't mean eliminating them. It means restructuring them to better serve the public, and establishing alternative services that would make a call to 911 the last choice rather than the only choice.

A lot of people seem to not understand this.
Police are far too frequently first on the scene at incidents where their presence is not required.

Quibble - I think the calls should go through 911 but the dispatchers should be trained to send the appropriate service instead of defaulting to the po,ice
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:59 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Defunding the police doesn't mean eliminating them.
That's true. It means eliminating or significantly reducing funds earmarked for LE.

Quote:
It means restructuring them to better serve the public, and establishing alternative services that would make a call to 911 the last choice rather than the only choice.
Not necessarily. Some defunders, for example, are abolitionists.
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Old 1st July 2020, 10:26 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
So do you have an address or a phone number to contact COVID-19?

Muphry's law.WP
Hah!

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Old 1st July 2020, 12:12 PM   #391
bruto
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I'm reminded of the suggstion of William James that we need "the moral equivalent of war," (by which we mean not morally equivalent but equivalent while moral). It would not surprise me at all to find that firefighters and police share many characteristics, not all of them savory and comfortable, such as the desire to be the avenger of evil, the hero, the warrior, and whatnot. And also, I suspect (at least from my acquaintance with some volunteer firefighters over the years) a pleasure in playing with big exotic and expensive machinery and equipment.

But firefighters have the advantage that their enemy is truly everyone's enemy, and the tools they use to fight it are not the tools meant to kill people. They get to make noise, break some rules, seek glory, march in parades, break stuff and be praised, but they can do it all without shooting anyone. If you want to be a macho hero in a uniform, you could do a lot worse than putting out fires and saving children from burning buildings and showing off your big shiny pumper.

Even if the ranks are drawn from the same flawed pool, and even if much the same personal ends are served, the end result is likely to be very different.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:35 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
So do you have an address or a phone number to contact COVID-19?

Muphry's law.WP
you can dial any number, so long as it's from a public phone in a bar in Texas.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:42 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I'll tell you to do with the police. Support them. Defunding the police forces would be a social disaster. The only people with issues concerning the police is that they judge the entire profession by the acts of a few bad apples.

What would take the place of the police? No police or law enforcement means anarchy which is what a lot of left-wingers seem to want.
That is not what defunding the police is about. It means the police are no longer the main recipient of funding, including civil seizure and the go to service to deal with all sorts of issues, from homeless people to mental health issues.

For example, instead of making the police responsible for dealing with homeless people on the street, which really just means driving them out of sight, social services get funded to engage with said people to find them homes and help them solve the issues which caused them to be homeless.

Or, if someone is experiencing a mental health crisis, such as an autistic person who is having a violent melt down, instead of the police being called, a mental health team with experience and better knowledge of what is happening, can attend.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:57 PM   #394
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Why American cops are so brutal

Quote:
There’s a widespread sense that the police in America are running amok. On the one hand, news about police murders is so routine that it is widely acknowledged as systematic. On the other hand, everyone, including protestors, is quick to deny that this brutality is a requirement of police work; it is said that the police are misusing their badges, taking the law into their own hands, or violating their public responsibilities.

This contradiction is dealt with by treating each new incident of police violence as an abberation; individual policemen or whole departments or even the entire American way of policing is said to be out of line with the official ideal of policing. But doesn’t the rogue nature of so many police tell us something about what the police stand for in American society? How does a cop do the work of a cop without being a cop?
(...)
Liberal critics concede that a capitalist society may not provide the best conditions for people to obey the law, but there is a general agreement that crime is a matter of personal character. Whether you follow the rules or disobey them shows what you are made of. The law is not taken as an indication of the brutality of this society, but as a reflection of the people who live in it; it is assumed that by nature they are brutal and in need of restraint. The message is always that American society is basically good and good people need to be protected against the savages who for some mysterious reason are always running amok in it.

This turns everything upside down. This view doesn’t pay any attention to what is being protected or secured. And yet everybody also knows that the police are more brutal in Baltimore than in Chevy Chase or in South Central than in Beverly Hills. The police know they can’t show the same attitude in the two places. They know who they are protecting and who they are watching out for. This is a social order that has to be secured by force; if the social system really did come from nature, the law and the police to enforce it wouldn’t be necessary. No matter how much America may promulgate the myth that it is a society of self-made individuals, it reminds everybody that it is a class society that can only be maintained with violence – and lots of it.
Why are American cops so brutal? (Ruthless Criticism, June 2020)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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