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9th July 2020, 09:17 AM | #1361 |
Illuminator
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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9th July 2020, 09:20 AM | #1362 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
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No, it is not obvious. That's why we asked.
The test protocol originally discussed was a simple blind test: 1. You are your wife are in separate rooms 2. She tosses a coin and either switches the wifi on or leaves it off, and records which in a sealed, numbered, envelope 3. You decide, based on your symptoms over the next (however long you wish) whether the wifi is on or off 4. You record which you think it is in a sealed, numbered, envelope Repeat, say, ten times over however many days you need. Open envelopes and see if you guessed correctly more often than would be expected by chance. Now tell me at what point in that test protocol anyone takes a measurement, and what difference it makes to the result.
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9th July 2020, 09:21 AM | #1363 |
Penultimate Amazing
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9th July 2020, 09:22 AM | #1364 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
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You mean the one you use almost to the exclusion of all other forms of argument?
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9th July 2020, 09:24 AM | #1365 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
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An argument from authority is not a fallacy if the authority is backed by expertise in the field in question. What is a fallacy is to set yourself up, through a narcissism that thinks personal experience is a match for that expertise, as an authority that is equal. You're also arguing from authority, you just appeal to yourself as one.
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9th July 2020, 10:10 AM | #1366 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
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This is true, but I want to recast it in more accurate terminology. Argument from authority is a fallacy when the authority of the proponent -- regardless of its legitimacy -- is substituted for logical soundness or factual accuracy in an argument that requires them. That is, if the question is properly a matter of correct logical inference or observation of fact, the eminence of the proponent doesn't compensate for failures of inference or observation that would otherwise undo the argument.
For example, if a doctor tells you that because coffee keeps you awake, avoiding coffee will make you fall asleep, that's a fallacious argument from authority. The way it's phrased -- if you pay close attention to it -- it's an improper conversion of the conditional in one way of logical thinking, or an excluded-middle fallacy in categorical logic. The absence of coffee does not preclude the operation of other keep-awake effects. Sleep is not a foregone conclusion. In contrast, applying expert judgment to questions where specialized understanding is needed is not a fallacy. That still requires correct observation and inference, but it is likely to incorporate facts and relationships among facts that are known only by experts, and likely to be counterintuitive and misunderstood or misinterpreted by others. If our doctor instead tells you that avoiding coffee will help you sleep easier, because of caffeine's stimulating effect on the human body, that's not a fallacy. It's expert judgment. A similar conclusion is drawn as in the former example, but here the basis of the conclusion is different and rightly requires someone with knowledge of human biochemistry. It may be that two experts will still disagree in judgment if presented with identical facts. But they can be expected to articulate the reasons for disagreement that alludes to the specialized knowledge they possess. But if an expert and a non-expert disagree, and the non-expert merely complains because he is not being taken seriously, the critically defensible position to take in that situation is clear. |
9th July 2020, 10:47 AM | #1367 |
Spectral Challenger
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Berlin
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Details, please.
I've done my research, and LO! I've found out how the majority of these more recent meters are made up. Clever little IC available from a couple of manufacturers. Actually, there are a few variants on offer, but the 8 GHz points to one or two specific ones. I know exactly how the ICs work now. I could give you a detailed breakdown, and show you the pitfalls, but I suspect you'll not even read my posts, so I'll just watch you waste your money trying to come up with another obfuscation. Of course, you don't actually need a meter at all to do the test we proposed like 7 weeks ago. Spectrum analyser output? Too many laughing dogs. |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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9th July 2020, 11:13 AM | #1368 |
Spectral Challenger
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Berlin
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BS. Firstly, Germany goes with the EU recommendation, which is aligned with the ICNIRP. It's specified on this page.
Secondly, the reason Germany has such a low mortality rate is because it has responsible citizens, a very comprehensive healthcare system and a huge ICU capacity. What is becoming really clear to me is that you cite sources that support your argument (few and far between that they are) without even reading them. A couple of cases in point from your Google doc link: Regarding Martin Pall, the author of the email: Professor Kenneth Foster, a bioengineer at the University of Pennsylvania has criticised Pall's ideas as using selective evidence that ignores research that finds no link between mobile phone technology and human health. Here is a nice litte article which debunks another of the points made, that birds were killed off due to 5G, besides other things. Your musings about 5G and the COVID link are just that, musings. It's getting tiresome. |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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9th July 2020, 11:25 AM | #1369 |
Spectral Challenger
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Location: Berlin
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You are clearly not an authority on EM radiation, and yes, that IS an argument from authority - mine. Feel free to rant about how I am not an expert , I'll just laugh in decibels up to and including the dreaded 3rd harmonic. You have not once proven that you know what you are talking about when it comes to even the basics of RF, let alone the test and measurement aspect. You brag about a long list of achievements, but specifiy none, and only mention that you have done stuff that other people thought impossible. Are you channeling Trump? |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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9th July 2020, 11:26 AM | #1370 |
Penultimate Amazing
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ISTR that you reside in Berlin?
I do not, but my sister has lived in Munich for decades, thus I have been a frequent visitor. On one occasion, I did happen to be afflicted and laid low by an illness. The way the German health care system cranked into action was astonishing. My feet never touched the floor. This is yet another example of PS having no clue what he is talking about. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th July 2020, 11:39 AM | #1371 |
Schrödinger's cat
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Do I really need to explain to you yet again why these sort of uncontrolled observations prove absolutely nothing? Why they are only sufficient to form an hypothesis, which then needs to be tested in a controlled, systematic way?
Now you explain this: why is it that whenever that is done, whenever such people are tested under properly controlled and blinded conditions, they are unable to tell whether the source of the EMF they believe is causing their symptoms is on or off?
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Doctors have tested many of these people to discover if it is indeed EMF that is causing their symptoms using exactly the blind testing protocol just described, the one you still haven't bothered to do yourself, and found no evidence that it is. What more can they do? In order to help such people they would need to find out the real cause of their symptoms, and that would require the self described "EMS sufferers" to consider other possible causes. Which I imagine most of them, if they are anything like you, refuse to do. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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9th July 2020, 11:40 AM | #1372 |
Spectral Challenger
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Yup, I moved here last year from Cape Town. It's been an experience, mostly very positive. It's perhaps a story for another thread one day. If you're ever in this neck of the woods again, let me know.
I have just managed to get into the healthcare system, and yes, it is comprehensive and efficient. I especially like the clicking of heels when the doctors walk into the wards. (I kid, I kid) |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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9th July 2020, 11:48 AM | #1373 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You can freely add mine and that of not a few others in this thread who actually know what they are talking about.
You can even add some who do not have relevant expertise in the area, but relevant expertise in others. For example, pixel42 has proposed a perfectly valid initial test protocol to scientifically assess if there even is an effect to give reason for further investigation. AFAIK pixel42's expertise is not in RF, but she sure can science the hell out of anything. And what do we get? Tumbleweeds and excuses for not following such a protocol. This tells me that the desired cause must be protected at all cost. The ACTUAL cause is irrelevant. This latest blind alley of investing in a better meter is just such an irrelevancy. Sure, it might allow better measurement of field strength at whatever frequency or even spectral analysis of some rudimentary sort (I am afraid to even ask for a make or model, but I can guess) but it still gets one nowhere next or near causation. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th July 2020, 12:04 PM | #1374 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Would love to, German beer is the best. No Idea under current circumstance when such a thing might happen. One can hope.
My own health service is not a patch on Germany, but we are getting there. For example, my last interaction with EMS here was when I comprehensively shattered an ankle in an unfortunate interaction with a ladder while home decorating. I was unfortunate to do that around the time that the drunks are falling out of pubs so the service was swamped. Triage happened and I went all back of the list. Eight hours I waited. Throughout that time, they kept on calling me with status updates, assessments, instructions and so forth. During that time, I crawled to my front door and made sure it was unlocked. When the ambulance turned up, they knew they could walk right in. Arrive in A&E, skip the queue, straight to X-Ray. From X-ray straight to theatre, have a titanium plate inserts with 9 pins. Follow physio for weeks. Cost to me? Zero. And I had no health insurance at the time. So one wonders exactly what the hell happens in South Africa? And why PS assumes it happens everywhere? |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th July 2020, 12:29 PM | #1375 |
Spectral Challenger
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It's cool, no rush, I'm not about to shuffle off this mortal coil or anything for the next couple of decades at least, which is surprising, given the amount of RF I've been exposed to I'll DM you contact details for future.
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Aside to mods: seeing as this thread is heavily anecdotally biased towards PS, I believe, in my defence, I have the right to rebalance somewhat.
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Private medical schemes in the main are hospital plans, so you are covered for medical emergencies, and pay for day to day stuff. There are varying degrees of cover, depending on what you are prepared to pay. It's a bit complex, and I don't want to go into it in detail here, it would need a completely different thread. I will say this, though, with feeling: I think SA doctors are probably the best trained in the world. |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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9th July 2020, 12:43 PM | #1376 |
Illuminator
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Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
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9th July 2020, 12:51 PM | #1377 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
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And if it fails to correlate with just the on-off setting, then we can examine whether the "on" state requires additional variables. PartSkeptic is trying to commit the classic misdirective error in pseuso-science whereby one assumes that a particular quantity, just because it can be measured as part of the experiment, must be considered in it.
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9th July 2020, 12:57 PM | #1378 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
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Will respond in kind.
Oh the NHS is roughly similar, but they were also funding homeopathy up until fairly recently. The NHS of the UK has some startling oddities. And side note, the ROI is not part of the UK. We fought and died to rid ourselves of those shackles. If PS can shovel anecdotes, so can we. The difference is that we have evidence. Will take your word. Seems to mee that no health system is perfect, but it is possible wiht some effort to be at least good. Comparitives are likely way off topic. Suffice it to say that my country and indeed the NHS in the UK endeavours to provide free health care for all. Sometimes they are great, and sometimes they fail dismally. The point here is that the US system is built to fail. Any system that predicates access to medical care on the basis of ability to pay up is borked. The poor can do...what exactly? Just go die in a corner, below an underpass? What? But that seems to be the american way. Yep. I have zero argument with that. Can you imagine how pant wettingly scary the first ever heart transplant must have been? Barnard was one courageous ....I lack superlatives. His work gave my long dead mother ten more years of life. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th July 2020, 12:58 PM | #1379 |
Spectral Challenger
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"Study" is a far cry from "research". I can study the bible, for example - this limits my knowledge to that tome. However, I can also "research" the bible, and then gain insight into the knowledge that is presented in said tome, and make rational, nay, critical decisions on its contents. You may be the human guinea pig, but I'm one of the experts making you run through the maze. You and I both know the effects, but I understand them, whereas you just feel them. |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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9th July 2020, 01:37 PM | #1380 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2012
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The original claim was a simple 'if wifi, then headache', no mention of any other consideration at the time.
If PartSkeptic wishes to add things that were not in the original claim, then they need to retract that original claim and add a new claim, then that can be tested. |
9th July 2020, 03:09 PM | #1381 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Fair point. Study the bible all one wants. One will learn what the bible claims. Those claims are....meh. And unsupported by anything else.
Research the bible and one discovers a wealth of other data. The same applies to EMF. Study the crank literature and one reaches the pre-ordained conclusion. Widen the scope and one arrives in an entirely different destination. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th July 2020, 07:50 PM | #1382 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
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The original claim which you pointed out was testable, and which PartSkeptic agreed to test, two months ago, yet which is still untested.
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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9th July 2020, 08:47 PM | #1383 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 388
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Does anybody really believe that PS will reconsider his position?
Suppose he does the testing, and gets all the trials correct (It could happen). He will be vindicated. No further testing will be done. All those skeptics didn't know anything... Even though it has already been explained that it only means that further testing with better controls may be indicated. And if he only gets it right a few times, well, he has already started with the excuses of why the test did/will not work. Nothing it seems will have the result of PS reexamining his theory/believe. I commend you all for taking so much time to interact with PS, but it will all be fruitless. Not that any of you should stop, I find many of the posts very interesting, and informative. This has probably already been asked, but if so, I don't recall the answer. PartSkeptic, What would it take for you to consider that you are incorrect about your source of ills? |
9th July 2020, 09:07 PM | #1384 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,094
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.....and rich
The Center for Inquiry Investigations Group (CIIG), formerly the Independent Investigations Group (IIG), is the largest paranormal investigation group in the world, with allied groups and field investigators in the United States, Canada, the UK, Italy, Australia, South Africa, and Germany. It investigates fringe science, paranormal and extraordinary claims from a rational, scientific viewpoint, and disseminates factual information about such inquiries to the public, and offers a $250,000 prize to anyone who can "prove paranormal ability, under scientific testing conditions" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center...igations_Group |
9th July 2020, 10:00 PM | #1385 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
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It would be interesting to ask CIIG if they would consider being able to tell whether the WiFi was on or off without a measuring instrument a paranormal claim. There's currently no scientific explanation for such an ability so I would think they probably would. Of course PartSkeptic doesn't claim it as such, instead believing that there is some, so far unidentified, natural mechanism by which low levels of non ionising radiation can affect his health.
JREF's position was that, once they'd accepted an application for their paranormal challenge, they would pay up even if it was later established that there was a non paranormal explanation for the applicant's success, and I suspect CIIG would take the same view. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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9th July 2020, 11:21 PM | #1386 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,094
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I agree. I supply in this link an application form for Partskepic to make his application to prove us all wrong and walk away with $250,000.
"CFI / Facebook / Can you prove the supernatural?" https://cfiig.org/ However, deluded people never like proof they are deluded. I do not think Partskeptic will make the application. |
10th July 2020, 06:55 AM | #1387 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
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Summary:
(1) PS posts something he wrote in 1992 about racial tensions as evidence of prophetic ability (2) When it was pointed out there are long standing racial tensions in the US, he boasts about having predicted the movement to defund police (3) When it was pointed out that his defund prediction never actually occurred, and that the Rodney King riots occurred in 1992, he fell silent. <whack--a-mole!> What next? |
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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10th July 2020, 07:52 AM | #1388 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
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Yeah obvious predictions are easy
There will be a panic on Wall Street A world leader will be assassinated A famous celebrity will die unexpectedly There will be tension in the middle east North Korea will make threats There will be strikes in France There will be racial/religious riots in India Etc., etc. All of these will happen at some point, no god or predictive ability needed |
11th July 2020, 01:41 AM | #1389 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 4,801
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So when an "expert" says that IN HIS OPINION, he does not know what is causing an effect it is no fallacy because it is backed by expertise in the field. And this is then extended to say that because AN EXPERT does not know the cause then I cannot be right in proposing a cause? How many "unknown side-effects" have begun with patients reporting them? Anecdotes from ordinary people suffering them? I would say it is quite typical. The Epstein-Barr virus was eventually discovered to be real. This was despite the MANY if not ALL experts saying that the sufferers symptoms had no medical cause other than psychological problems. There are a number of other ailments that have been attributed to "psychological problems" that eventually proved to have a testable physical cause. Why is this forum SO SURE that my proposal has absolutely no merit? |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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11th July 2020, 01:55 AM | #1390 |
Illuminator
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Could you give me the details of the IC, please? I WILL read your posts on this and follow up with you. It is exactly this sort of post I hope to get input from. I will, of course, do some searching to find such chips. It will give me some idea of what they do and how they do it. I am well aware of how poor the spectrum analysis may be. But if it tell me that there was a week signal from a nearby tower at 1800MHz and strong signal from the WiFi modem at 2400 MHz then it is far better than having no idea. Did you not read my post where I say that the modem can be on but transmitting at low power? Low enough that I do not get a headache? It is like saying I could hear when the people next door put their radio on. If they are at high volume then I could hear it. If they used headphones instead of speakers, then obviously I would not be able to hear if the radio is on. Can you not see the analogy? Why are people pushing for a "simple" test that proves very little? If I got 10 out of 10 because each time the power was high then it would work. But if I said it was never on and got 5 out of 10 because the power was low then everyone would never let me forget those test results and would co-mingle them with any future results. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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11th July 2020, 02:00 AM | #1391 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
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If we were sure your idea had no merit we would hardly have gone to so much trouble to explain to you how to go about finding out if it had merit, would we?
For myself I think it very unlikely to have merit, for the simple reason that those who were as convinced as you on the same anecdotal grounds have so far failed to demonstrate its merit under scientific test conditions. But I'm not completely dismissing the possibility that you might be the first, which is why I keep encouraging you to do the test you agreed to nine weeks ago today. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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11th July 2020, 02:01 AM | #1392 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2012
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It is not paranormal at all. I doubt that they would take the challenge. If they do, it would be easy money. I am stunned that you can conflate a science claim with a paranormal claim. Look at how sensitive some living creatures are to magnetic and electric fields. Sometimes a huge difference between calculated and observed. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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11th July 2020, 02:04 AM | #1393 |
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
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11th July 2020, 02:08 AM | #1394 |
Illuminator
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And God intervened with a serendipitous event to demonstrate that my "simple" test had a flaw. Having the flaw exposed no means that the power of the modem (and possibly the frequency) is a factor. This is not a paranormal experiment - and God was quite right to make me procrastinate in doing it. So consider the original test retracted and the new one to be "if max power Wifi from modem, then headache in 15 minutes if within 1 meter." The qualification is the the modem performs the same way each time. With similar frequency for example. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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11th July 2020, 02:11 AM | #1395 |
Illuminator
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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11th July 2020, 02:11 AM | #1396 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
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So you are withdrawing your original claim to always be able to tell when the wifi is on? OK then.
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You could also enhance your test protocol, as I suggested a couple of weeks ago, to include a power measurement which would also be recorded in your wife's envelope along with the on/off information. Then you could (after the testing was complete, of course) see if you were more likely to guess it was on correctly if the power level was high. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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11th July 2020, 02:15 AM | #1397 |
Illuminator
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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11th July 2020, 02:15 AM | #1398 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
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I am not conflating a science claim with a paranormal claim, I am merely pointing out that you might be able to take advantage of the fact that there is currently no known scientific explanation for your claimed ability to tell whether or not the wifi is on or off.
If you recall, this was exactly DowserDon's plan: he believed there was scientific explanation for his ability to locate underground disturbances (something to do with piezoelectricity IIRC) and planned to use his MDC winnings to finance research into it. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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11th July 2020, 02:21 AM | #1399 |
Illuminator
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My original test made the assumption that the modem broadcast at the same power each time. This assumption was based on the fact that the computer modem WiFi can have the power output changed to broadcast at a percentage less that 100%. Why did none of the experts on this forum warn that the power could (at times) be very low? God had to help me make the discovery myself. It is now very clear that the power measurement must be included. A meter that has a produces a log of the measurement is a plus. There is no guessing. It is a matter of how severe the headache is. |
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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11th July 2020, 02:24 AM | #1400 |
Illuminator
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**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.** |
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