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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 31st July 2020, 12:07 PM   #681
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
"Are the actions by fededal police in Portland unconstitutional?"

Of course not, Anarchists and Marxists should be beaten down especially after they killed that kid in Missouri. If you should sympathize with anyone it should be decent law abiding citizens who are victims of the property damage and violence. Also tear gas doesn't actually harm people it's meant to cool down a situation. The real question is, "Should Trump have helped the ******** Portland out, of should it have been left to burn?"
So we should beat protestors in Portland because anarchists killed someone in Missouri?

What the hell are you talking about Portland burning? Portland wasn't burning. There were protests in a couple of blocks in downtown. Also, you clearly don't know what you're talking about; teargas harms people. It doesn't cool things down, he hurts people enough so they don't want to be there anymore. That's the ******* point of it. I'm amused by your how uninformed you are.
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Old 31st July 2020, 02:58 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Portland sees peaceful night of protests following withdrawal of federal troops



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ops-withdrawal

Portland isn't special. Just like every other city, de-escalation lies largely in the hands of the police. Riot cops cause riots.
Or rioters cause riots.. I like to take each situation as it is, not how I would like to frame it. I'm sure you can agree that there are examples of both happening in the past few months. Getting rid of the feds was a win for the movement there. So they unsurprisingly did not do any of the things they were doing nightly while the feds were there.

When you are not having lasers aimed at your eyes to blind you, fireworks thrown at you when you emerge from the doors or people attempting to hit you with debris, you are less likely to need to use dispersion methods like tear gas. Who knew?

Hopefully this is something that lasts and people can stop the huge hyperbole surrounding anything that happens there.
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Old 31st July 2020, 03:07 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the hell are you talking about Portland burning? Portland wasn't burning.
Here's evidence of Portland burning.

Google "Portland fires, vandalism, looting as protest turns into riot; at least 13 arrests" for the image

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
teargas harms people. It doesn't cool things down
It makes your eyes hurt for a couple hours and then you're alright, not what I'd call "harming people."
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Old 31st July 2020, 03:33 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Here's evidence of Portland burning.

Google "Portland fires, vandalism, looting as protest turns into riot; at least 13 arrests" for the image



It makes your eyes hurt for a couple hours and then you're alright, not what I'd call "harming people."
Telling someone else to find your evidence for you is not providing evidence. Could you please:
a. Clarify what you mean by claiming Portland is burning.
b. Post evidence from a reliable source that your claim is correct.
Thank you.
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Old 31st July 2020, 03:39 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I do not consider claims that amount to "USA slowly rots into far rightwing authoritarian state" over of the top.
Even when it comes to claims that one feels are pointing in the right direction, specifics and perspective are important.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Unless you are in sincere denial (like "this never ever can happen in land of freedom!!!111iamdelusionalidiot") or actually support this kind of direction, but want to pretend these claims are ridiculous to minimize and deny.
Hmm? Are you asking for me to state the obvious with this? "It can happen here." "There are powerful forces that want it to happen here - and are influencing Trump's decision making." I'm not sold, for example, on the claim that Trump is testing the waters for a declaration of Martial Law. I'm not ruling it out, but other explanations fit my observations better. The scenario that Trump was convinced by some of his advisors that a show of force and stirring conflict against those change-seeking black people, the right-wing boogeyman of antifa, and their supporters would reinforce and continue to satisfy his base while distracting the media from the incredible COVID failures that he and his administration have caused, for example, seems notably more likely to me than that Trump was intentionally intending to test the waters for martial law.

Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
If those beliefs promote anarchy and marxism, yeah. Whenever commies or anarchists take power
It's probably worth just stopping you in your tracks there. To be perfectly clear, actual communists pretty much haven't taken power anywhere that you likely think that they have. Totalitarian authorities that are largely gross perversions of actual communism have taken power with transparently fake claims of communism, yes, and caused the horrors that tend to come hand in hand with totalitarianism. To be clear, of course, actual communism has incredibly serious problems to the point that human nature almost certainly dooms it and is also still nigh impossible to actually pull off in today's world in a more technical sense - it's just that so many of the sins that are regularly attributed to communism are actually the sins of totalitarianism and muddling the truth there has been a right-wing strategy to try to smear the left for a long time.
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Old 31st July 2020, 05:36 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
... Pathetic generation.

Spoiled. Portland is a bunch of big babies.
If someone disagrees, please tell me what other country they aspire to be? What other city does it better? Where do the BLM protesters really want to live? Was it so awful enough to destroy it? Portland WAS pretty damn good.

/random rant
Sounds like "America love it or leave it."
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:18 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Telling someone else to find your evidence for you is not providing evidence. Could you please:
a. Clarify what you mean by claiming Portland is burning.
b. Post evidence from a reliable source that your claim is correct.
Thank you.
I'd love to but I'm not able to post links yet.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It's probably worth just stopping you in your tracks there. To be perfectly clear, actual communists pretty much haven't taken power anywhere that you likely think that they have. Totalitarian authorities that are largely gross perversions of actual communism have taken power with transparently fake claims of communism, yes, and caused the horrors that tend to come hand in hand with totalitarianism. To be clear, of course, actual communism has incredibly serious problems to the point that human nature almost certainly dooms it and is also still nigh impossible to actually pull off in today's world in a more technical sense - it's just that so many of the sins that are regularly attributed to communism are actually the sins of totalitarianism and muddling the truth there has been a right-wing strategy to try to smear the left for a long time.
So true communism has never been tried except in countries not referred to as communist. With communism some of worst atrocities are during the creation of the state. For example when the Soviet Union was created Lenin killed over 3 million. Pretty much anyone intelligent was killed or escaped early on. Similar thing in Cuba. Why are you defending communism if you don't think it can happen?


Funny to see complaints about totalitarianism after they supported it for corona. The difference seems to be if relates to science or not.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:31 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
I'd love to but I'm not able to post links yet.
You can post links by breaking them up. Someone will put them together when quoting:

h t t p:www. somekindoflink. com as an example.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:39 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
...
So what was Jayapal's point in comparing the 2 responses?
What would have been the correct legal action by Barr?
In the normal world given the law as you describe it, Barr could have answered:

"Trump asked me if there was anything we could do, he was very concerned. I told him there wasn't a federal statute that allowed us to intervene directly."

Or something like that. The deer-in-the-headlights response made it clear no such concern by Trump was conveyed to Barr.

And if Trump didn't bring it up with Barr he could have answered:

"I brought it up in a staff meeting [or it was discussed in a staff meeting] and we felt that it was best to hold back as long as nothing violent actually happened."

See how that works? Jayapal was well within her rights to point out the hypocrisy.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:43 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
So true communism has never been tried except in countries not referred to as communist.
Take out that exception and you'll be closer to the truth.

Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
With communism some of worst atrocities are during the creation of the state. For example when the Soviet Union was created Lenin killed over 3 million. Pretty much anyone intelligent was killed or escaped early on. Similar thing in Cuba. Why are you defending communism if you don't think it can happen?
If you're going to try to ask that, I'm just going to have to ask a question right back at you. Why are you defending totalitarianism and trying to push the atrocities done for the sake of creating a totalitarian state onto communism, even when from start to end, the "communism" isn't even remotely actual communism?

As I had said, communism is bad in a bunch of ways. Scapegoating the faults of totalitarianism onto it is also bad, though, and serves simply to defend totalitarianism and divert valid criticism away from it. Usually, of course, that tends to be combined with fearmongering about how bad any move to make things fairer or healthier for long-lasting democratic society is, especially when it comes at any risk to the very rich's efforts to continually increase the share of the economic pie that goes into their pockets, much as that last part is usually unsaid motivation behind why right-wing propagandists are pushing it.

Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Funny to see complaints about totalitarianism after they supported it for corona. The difference seems to be if relates to science or not.
Care to explain what, specifically, you're speaking about? Perhaps that, objectively speaking, some totalitarian countries did a better job at dealing with COVID? Is there some need to point out the obvious about how different forms of government have different positives, negatives, and challenges or to try to lie and claim that our democracy always is the best in all situations and ways, regardless of evidence? Acknowledging and supporting truth is something that's not actually the same as supporting totalitarianism, even if they may coincidentally overlap in some cases.

ETA: Alternately, based on the... quality of your other statements, I suppose that you might actually be trying to argue that the lockdowns and other measures to buy time to get COVID are totalitarianism? If so, then, much like communism, you're just showing off how ignorant and manipulable you are. That is, of course, if that's what you're talking about.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:48 PM   #691
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I don't know what's going on in this country. I exchanged messages with a friend and former co-worker on Linkedin this evening. When I closed the messaging this was the page I saw. I'm going to buy a meal for someone making $70,000 a year? I don't think so. Police officers are in a system where almost whatever a 'bad cop' does, the 'good cops' will back them up. The Blue Wall of Silence. Now, thanks largely to smartphones with video apps, the general public has begun to catch on to the reality of this.

They should be feeling down.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:34 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's been the constant refrain from the start, that Trump's election was illegitimate, that he conspired with the Russians despite there being zero evidence.


Our friend Zig appears to be auditioning to be the next Press Secretary.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:44 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I like to take each situation as it is, not how I would like to frame it.
Best holier-than-thou statement posted here in years. You may like to take each situation as it is but you don't. NOBODY does. We are all subject to bias in our worldview, in our information sources and in our culture. To pretend you're immune from all of that is risible - in a painful way.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:48 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Funny to see complaints about totalitarianism after they supported it for corona.
What does this mean? Give some details and maybe an example or two.
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Old 31st July 2020, 08:55 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What I think is proper doesn't actually matter to you. You don't actually care. As for suggesting an election is illegitimate without evidence, where have you been the last four years? That's been the constant refrain from the start, that Trump's election was illegitimate, that he conspired with the Russians despite there being zero evidence. ....


Come on Zig. We're all in the same room. You can't tell us we didn't see the evidence we saw. Were you asleep?
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 31st July 2020, 09:02 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If you're going to try to ask that, I'm just going to have to ask a question right back at you. Why are you defending totalitarianism and trying to push the atrocities done for the sake of creating a totalitarian state onto communism, even when from start to end, the "communism" isn't even remotely actual communism?
You can pretend all you want, but it's irrelevant because the creators of communist countries read Marx and Engels and were carrying out the idealism of creating true communism. It's just like Einstein said "Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results."
All this really is, is a tactic to egg Trump on into putting rioters down so they can whine later about being oppressed and fascism/totalitarianism. It's just a bunch of ********.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
the very rich's efforts to continually increase the share of the economic pie that goes into their pockets,
Is your goal to want everyone to be equal?
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Old 31st July 2020, 09:31 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
You can pretend all you want, but it's irrelevant because the creators of communist countries read Marx and Engels and were carrying out the idealism of creating true communism.


Actions speak much louder than words - especially the words of people who act to become brutal dictators.

Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
It's just like Einstein said "Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results."
Wait, you're telling me that creating a totalitarian government using collectivist rhetoric and claims that they'll try to achieve communism to win the support of the masses is going to end badly (except for the people on top)? Duh. The totalitarian part gives that away. It's not like the people on top are likely to be blind to that going into it, though.

Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
All this really is, is a tactic to egg Trump on into putting rioters down so they can whine later about being oppressed and fascism/totalitarianism. It's just a bunch of ********.
This seems to have little relation to the previous couple sentences. It would help for you to clarify what, specifically, you're referring to here and why, exactly, you think that whatever it is is actually about Trump, specifically.

Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Is your goal to want everyone to be equal?
Total equality is unattainable, regardless, before getting to how total equality is actually counterproductive to what I want. Limited inequality serves as a very important way to stir competitiveness and growth, after all. Too much and too little breed far more problems than they solve. Thus, a fair degree of equality is necessary and supportive of what I actually want in practice. What I want is a sustainable society where people can be as happy, healthy, and stable as possible and where everyone actually does have a reasonably fair shot. Too much inequality undermines every bit of that and in the US, that's far more the position that we're both in and heading further towards currently.
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Old 31st July 2020, 09:34 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I don't know what's going on in this country. I exchanged messages with a friend and former co-worker on Linkedin this evening. When I closed the messaging this was the page I saw. I'm going to buy a meal for someone making $70,000 a year? I don't think so. Police officers are in a system where almost whatever a 'bad cop' does, the 'good cops' will back them up. The Blue Wall of Silence. Now, thanks largely to smartphones with video apps, the general public has begun to catch on to the reality of this.

They should be feeling down.
They are literally out there protecting you from getting killed and getting bottles, rocks, explosives, bleach, and urine thrown at them in return.

It's a sad low that America has sunken to right now.


Buying them a gift card or a lunch to let them know that there are still people who care about this country and the ideals it stands for, and don't just want to burn it down is a good thing I think.
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Old 31st July 2020, 09:55 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
They are literally out there protecting you from getting killed and getting bottles, rocks, explosives, bleach, and urine thrown at them in return.

It's a sad low that America has sunken to right now.


Buying them a gift card or a lunch to let them know that there are still people who care about this country and the ideals it stands for, and don't just want to burn it down is a good thing I think.
If protection is the goal, I would prefer they engage in it without resorting to pretext.

I have seen quite a few incidences where a Terry stop concludes that there is no crime, but officers exercise their power to continue identifying the person.

I would like that sort of behavior to stop. I would prefer of they allay their concerns for the stop before completing their identification of the person, they cease identification.

When that, and a bunch of other things, are implemented, I will then buy them a meal.

ETA: here is a big one I propose. You know how cops stop questioning a suspect after they ask for a lawyer? Expand Miranda to the police required to presume the suspect has asked for a lawyer before questioning begins.

ETA2: On second thought....cops are liars by profession. I'm not going to dirty my reputation by associating with liars.

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Old 31st July 2020, 10:11 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
They are literally out there protecting you from getting killed ...
Nope.
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Old 31st July 2020, 10:12 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Nope.
And the TSA prevents terrorist attacks.
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Old 31st July 2020, 10:52 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
When you say "they", who are you talking about specifically? All the protesters?
The number of protesters either engaging in violence or actively supporting it is very low compared to the vast number of peaceful protesters in the wake of George Floyd's death.

HOWEVER, of the number of protesters who engaged in violence, or actively supporting it, there really only has only been an extremely small number of them arrested. This unfortunately sends a very bad message, that as long as there is a large enough group of people that are either causing the violence, or supporting those causing violence (the wall of moms in this case), than they can get away with it.

Sometimes this can be very confusing for the protesters, as they see some of the protesters who are engaged in violence get arrested, and the vast majority do not.

Clearly more effective crowd control tools are needed to:
  • Safely control crowds to encourage them to not be violent
  • Separate those who are violent or extremely determined to support those who are violent
  • Safely be able to make larger scale arrests for those who do choose to continue to be violent after repeated warnings


As we have seen from the tools and weapons that are used by law enforcement and Federal Authorities, far too often they can be excessively and unnecessarily brutal, and even then sometimes they are just not effective which is also bad. In general, many of the people who came down to the courthouse for hardcore violence brought weapons, shields, and gas masks, while a number of the peaceful demonstrators did not have those. So in general those people who were engaging in attacks were not hindered by the tear gas, while many of the people not there for that purpose were not.

I have looked up some of the new less-than lethal equipment under development, and there are really not that many good ones in development that I have seen. Furthermore, I don't think that more "weapons" are really what is needed most in this situation anyways. Usually when a weapon either lethal or non-lethal is used in any situation, it is because a lot of things before that have failed (laws/rules, public acceptable behavior, communication, community involvement, public officials, environmental controls, etc.).


As I said before, you ideally need a way to have those who chose to engage in violence to purposefully separate themselves from the other protesters, and publicly state their intention to engage in violence, and agree to be subject to arrest. That is exactly what an exclusion zone does, and I think it is one of the best ways to deescalate situations and arrest only those who want to engage in violence from those who just want to peacefully protest.

The application of an Exclusion Zone is actually surprisingly simple. Once a protest starts to become violent, or there is a history of violence in an area, you use either mounted or portable worn projectors to outline a zone where anyone entering that space would face arrest. There are a huge amount of positive components to that, as the space it creates naturally reduces violence, and it gives the protesters a clear definition of what is expected of them to peacefully protest. It also gives the violent agitators less cover to commit crimes while using human shields to hide behind.

There are a number of other tools that I have thought of to peacefully reduce violence. Such as a remote controlled/partially autonomous Near Indestructible Mobile Barriers, that would be cheap enough to mass deploy for protests and could also be deployed near embassies in hot zones. As well as mobile ground strips that could physically push people away.


I think if we had better tools and policies to peacefully contain protesters when they get violent, there would not be as many injuries, and people would still be able to peacefully protest.


I think people engaging in large scale violence without any consequences and thinking that is OK is wrong (on both sides), and I think that the idea posted here that you should leave violent rioters and violent protesters alone to hurt other Americans until their thirst for violence is satisfied is horrific.

There are better ways, and we should spend more time thinking about them and putting them into action. We are smarter than this, and we should start acting like it.
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Old 1st August 2020, 03:29 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do you think that trolling is proper behavior for the President of the United States? That suggesting without any evidence that the election will be illegitimate is a proper thing for the President to do?
Trumps like to stick his finger in the wind...without the subtlety that most other politicians use. He just puts it out there to see the response.

I think his advisors say "let's do this 5-point plan with broad reaching questionnaires over several weeks to see public sentiment" and he just says "I'm tweeting it out in 5 minutes".
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:21 AM   #704
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
I'd love to but I'm not able to post links yet.
.
My mistake. I did not look at your post count. Welcome aboard, rookie.
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:50 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Here's evidence of Portland burning.

Google "Portland fires, vandalism, looting as protest turns into riot; at least 13 arrests" for the image



It makes your eyes hurt for a couple hours and then you're alright, not what I'd call "harming people."
Yeah, there was a fire. They have a fire department. The vast, vast majority of the area that is the city of Portland has been untouched by protests. You still don't know what you're talking about and you're just parroting the lies told by Trump and his Trumptrash.
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Old 1st August 2020, 07:16 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Best holier-than-thou statement posted here in years. You may like to take each situation as it is but you don't. NOBODY does. We are all subject to bias in our worldview, in our information sources and in our culture. To pretend you're immune from all of that is risible - in a painful way.
Always good to know ISF will deliver unrequested critique of my failings, absent any examples or specifics as to why. Sprinkle in completely ignoring any substance from my post to complete this wonderful contribution. Not everyone can put something together so devoid of purpose. For that I say fight on, good sir. I salute you.
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Old 1st August 2020, 07:56 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Funny to see complaints about totalitarianism after they supported it for corona. The difference seems to be if relates to science or not.


Just in case you're serious, I might as well try to help you understand what 'totalitarianism' means.

Totalitarianism:
Quote:
Totalitarianism is a term for a political system or form of government that prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life. It is regarded as the most extreme and complete form of authoritarianism. In totalitarian states, political power has often been held by autocrats who employ all-encompassing campaigns in which propaganda is broadcast by state-controlled mass media.[1]
I assume that you refer to experts and leaders advising, or sometimes demanding, that citizens wear masks, wash their hands frequently, and maintain a distance of one to two metres, because we're in a pandemic that's killing countless people? There's quite a long way from that to a totalitarian state, my friend.

Edit to add: and yes, solid scientific backing goes a long way towards legitimizing protective means, like... telling people to wear a mask in public.
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Old 1st August 2020, 08:02 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post


Just in case you're serious, I might as well try to help you understand what 'totalitarianism' means.

Totalitarianism:


I assume that you refer to experts and leaders advising, or sometimes demanding, that citizens wear masks, wash their hands frequently, and maintain a distance of one to two metres, because we're in a pandemic that's killing countless people? There's quite a long way from that to a totalitarian state, my friend.

Edit to add: and yes, solid scientific backing goes a long way towards legitimizing protective means, like... telling people to wear a mask in public.
I have never heard someone describe government regulated sanitation as totalitarianism....and I go to libertarian forums where we talk about drunk driving laws are illegitimate.
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Old 1st August 2020, 08:52 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post

So true communism has never been tried except in countries not referred to as communist. With communism some of worst atrocities are during the creation of the state. For example when the Soviet Union was created Lenin killed over 3 million. Pretty much anyone intelligent was killed or escaped early on. Similar thing in Cuba. Why are you defending communism if you don't think it can happen?
The form of government is not the determining factor for atrocities. This entire thread is discussing a democratic republic and what it is conducting. Not sure what the scorecard is when it comes to grading efforts by overpowering governments but one thing I do know and that is a democratic republic can act like an authoritarian regime and a communist government can act like a democratic republic if either one cares to do so.
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:09 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Or rioters cause riots.. I like to take each situation as it is, not how I would like to frame it.
People who go to protest are not rioters. They do not see themselves that way. You can turn them into rioters, if you police an event clumsily enough. This isn't news; it's psychology of crowd events 101.

So I have to disagree. Calling them rioters is *exactly* a matter of how you choose to frame it, because that's only the situation as it is after a riot has started. They weren't rioters and had no intention of becoming rioters when they set out to protest.
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:15 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So we should beat protestors in Portland because anarchists killed someone in Missouri?

What the hell are you talking about Portland burning? Portland wasn't burning
. There were protests in a couple of blocks in downtown. Also, you clearly don't know what you're talking about; teargas harms people. It doesn't cool things down, he hurts people enough so they don't want to be there anymore. That's the ******* point of it. I'm amused by your how uninformed you are.
This was an article in the Statesman Journal

https://www.statesmanjournal.com/sto...cy/5290907002/
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:21 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Or rioters cause riots.. I like to take each situation as it is, not how I would like to frame it. I'm sure you can agree that there are examples of both happening in the past few months. Getting rid of the feds was a win for the movement there. So they unsurprisingly did not do any of the things they were doing nightly while the feds were there.

When you are not having lasers aimed at your eyes to blind you, fireworks thrown at you when you emerge from the doors or people attempting to hit you with debris, you are less likely to need to use dispersion methods like tear gas. Who knew?

Hopefully this is something that lasts and people can stop the huge hyperbole surrounding anything that happens there.
And the peaceful protesters who were attacked? Or the more than 100 journalists? What's your excuse there? More liberal hyperbole ?

I can only imagine if Obama had started to deploy faceless enforcers who drove conservatives away in unmarked vans. Probably they'd burn down the White House.

eta
Face it, when people who freaking protest police brutality are met with police brutality, that's going to escalate the situation. This is a no-brainer. In fact, I agree with Beau of the Fifth Coloum when he says it's remarkable how well everyone understands this when it happens in other countries, yet for some reason people are clueless as to solutions when civil unrest happens in the USA.
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:27 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Always good to know ISF will deliver unrequested critique of my failings, absent any examples or specifics as to why. Sprinkle in completely ignoring any substance from my post to complete this wonderful contribution. Not everyone can put something together so devoid of purpose. For that I say fight on, good sir. I salute you.
The upside of what you mentioned is that you struck a chord. Unfortunately, your comment will fall into oblivion as it was too succinct and without prejudice.
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:39 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
They are literally out there protecting you white people from getting killed
FTFY, and even then it does not always happen.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
and getting bottles, rocks, explosives, bleach, and urine thrown at them in return.
As far I am concerned, pretty deserved for murdering someone in pretty public and brazen way - last of long string of such murders with impunity - and then protecting murderers in any way these thugs in uniforms can.

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Buying them a gift card or a lunch to let them know that there are still people who care about this country and the ideals it stands for
What ideals? That policeman can murder certain kind of people with impunity?
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:48 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
People who go to protest are not rioters. They do not see themselves that way. You can turn them into rioters, if you police an event clumsily enough. This isn't news; it's psychology of crowd events 101.

So I have to disagree. Calling them rioters is *exactly* a matter of how you choose to frame it, because that's only the situation as it is after a riot has started. They weren't rioters and had no intention of becoming rioters when they set out to protest.
Riot is a form of protesting.

The protestors conducted themselves in the way they wished to... If they wanted to leave, they could have done so. If they wanted to throw a brick, they could have done so.

There were choices. The protestors are responsible for their actions, just like the police (or whatever we call them) are responsible for their responses.
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:50 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
The protestors are responsible for their actions, just like the police (or whatever we call them) are responsible for their responses.
Ironic that you say this about a protest over systemic police irresponsibility.
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:52 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
...snip...

Buying them a gift card or a lunch to let them know that there are still people who care about this country and the ideals it stands for, and don't just want to burn it down is a good thing I think.
Interesting in my country a police officer would be committing an offence for accepting a gift.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:09 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Ironic that you say this about a protest over systemic police irresponsibility.
There are many examples of police brutality, unwarranted stops, search and seizures... no argument there (I was on a Grand Jury for 6 months and what I witnessed was horrible). To say it is systemic is to ignore those who are committed to their oath. Is the molestation of young children by Priests systemic? IMO, "No", but it is a real problem. The police situation is very much like what I described, we tend to silo actions and then paint a broad brush on the entity. Exceptions need to be dealt with the swift hand of containment and judicial actions.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:43 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Ironic that you say this about a protest over systemic police irresponsibility.
Yes. Responsibility works both ways. I see people say 'well of course police did x, because the protesters did y', but that authorities could influence protesters in return seems an alien idea for some reason.

And again, it's funny how we understand this when it happens in foreign countries (hearts and minds, etc.), but people are at a loss when it happens domestically. I view it as a bigger problem some people have with understanding why people do as they do, beyond a very simple, black-and-white 'good people do good things, bad people do bad things'. It detracts from prevention efforts and is part of why there are so many protesters in the streets right now in the first place.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Is the molestation of young children by Priests systemic?
Yes. At least in the Roman Catholic church, it became a self-reinforcing, systemic problem when the leadership failed to prosecute priests, and did its utmost to keep abuse hidden at the expense of the survivors. So in that respect, it's a good comparison.

Are all cops bad? Nope, of course not. But it becomes a systemic problem when corruption, abuse, and over-policing are as widespread as they are, and the cops keep getting away with it. Is this in turn bound to attract bad apples of all kinds, who know with some certainty that they will get away with cruelty, injustice, or corruption? Yes, absolutely.

Remember, the protests broke out over a cop killing a detained man, for allegedly paying with a counterfeit 20 dollar bill, while three other officers and a whole bunch of onlookers observed and even filmed the killing. Then, if I recall correctly, it took public outrage and protests for the cop responsible to first be fired, and then finally arrested for prosecution.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:45 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Riot is a form of protesting.

The protestors conducted themselves in the way they wished to... If they wanted to leave, they could have done so. If they wanted to throw a brick, they could have done so.

There were choices. The protestors are responsible for their actions, just like the police (or whatever we call them) are responsible for their responses.
Rioting is the kind of protest you get when you've already reached the point of making people believe they are justified in opposing unjust authority in that way. People who protest do not think they are the bad guys any more than the cops do, or you or I do.

Protesters think they're right and moral to protest. If it looks to them that the cops are getting heavy handed with their justified exercise of their rights, then they feel morally justified in resisting that oppression. Note that this is irrespective of the subject of the protest; it's just how crowds of people work.

If riot police wade into a protest then people will be scared and outraged. Some will want to leave. Some will want to throw a brick. Yes, the law will hold everyone accountable for their actions but those who organise the police response know (or should know if they're competent) how crowd control works, and there's a duty on the organised professionals to behave in a disciplined manner conducive to maintaining public order in the most effective way even if their gut instinct is to save face like schoolyard bullies, stamp their authority on the situation and break some heads rather than do what's best.

Escalating the violence until you win isn't winning when you still have a city to police tomorrow.
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