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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 30th June 2020, 12:06 PM   #481
Paul2
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Yeah, I get it now, you want Trump investigated again for non specific "potential" felonies, but it's not a fishing expedition or conspiracy theory like "Russian Collusion."
Isn't investigating potential crimes standard? Imagine someone overhearing two wise guys who are talking like they whacked someone (only in their coded language) without specifics about who or when. The information overheard might also not be specific in any number of ways (who, what, where, when, was the person killed or not, etc.). An investigator with this information might well then investigate more to find out whether some crime actually happened. That would be an investigation into a potential crime.

Now, that can be abused, of course, but investigations of potential crimes cannot be ruled out entirely merely because the crime is only potential and non-specific.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:16 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Isn't investigating potential crimes standard? Imagine someone overhearing two wise guys who are talking like they whacked someone (only in their coded language) without specifics about who or when. The information overheard might also not be specific in any number of ways (who, what, where, when, was the person killed or not, etc.). An investigator with this information might well then investigate more to find out whether some crime actually happened. That would be an investigation into a potential crime.

Now, that can be abused, of course, but investigations of potential crimes cannot be ruled out entirely merely because the crime is only potential and non-specific.

Yeah, but the allegation of the NRA funneling Russian money to campaigns is nothing like what you describe. It's a big leap. If anyone wants to hold that an allegation is enough, I'm all for it, but those same people would cry a river of "no evidence" when it's an organization they support.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:19 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
So TahiniBinShawarma is technically correct. there is no evidence Russia funneled money through the NRA, because they didn't look for it!

But is that true? Is there any evidence that they did look for it, but couldn't find any?

He can't even name what investigations were passed to Barr and the FBI. The original article posted when I asked for evidence said the FBI was looking at it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:14 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
He can't even name what investigations were passed to Barr and the FBI. The original article posted when I asked for evidence said the FBI was looking at it.
They were 'looking at it'. Muller seemed to think there was something worth looking at, and news reports indicated that they would be investigating. But since then... nothing.

If the FBI had investigated then the matter could be cleared up, but if they didn't you can't justify screaming 'no evidence!' from an investigation that wasn't done. The important questions would then be:- Did they look the other way? Was it covered up? What does 'looking at it' mean if they can't tell us what the result of the 'looking' was? And finally, if nobody looked at it, why not? Something smells...
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:37 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
They were 'looking at it'. Muller seemed to think there was something worth looking at, and news reports indicated that they would be investigating. But since then... nothing.

If the FBI had investigated then the matter could be cleared up, but if they didn't you can't justify screaming 'no evidence!' from an investigation that wasn't done. The important questions would then be:- Did they look the other way? Was it covered up? What does 'looking at it' mean if they can't tell us what the result of the 'looking' was? And finally, if nobody looked at it, why not? Something smells...

The article claimed they were looking at it. Perhaps nothing came of it, because there was no evidence of it, because it didn't happen.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:19 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
The article claimed they were looking at it. Perhaps nothing came of it, because there was no evidence of it, because it didn't happen.
Perhaps. That's the problem with lack of information, though - and I was being honest about where information was lacking all throughout.

Again, the fact remains that the NRA was notably compromised and acted in an extremely suspicious manner. My concern here when it comes to the NRA isn't truly politics-based so much as national security and electoral integrity. It's a matter of responsibility rather than being out to get anyone.

In something related, though, concern about whether likely problems should be investigated seems to be where the actual partisan split seems to be, especially in more recent years. To poke at the FEC again, this time with an Open Secrets article -

Republican FEC commissioners let Clinton campaign off the hook for super PAC coordination

Quote:
Deadlocked on a party-line vote, the Federal Election Commission has dismissed a complaint that Hillary Clinton’s campaign illegally coordinated with a super PAC during the 2016 presidential election cycle.

Continuing a recent trend with the embattled regulatory agency that is currently missing two of six commissioners, it was the Republican commissioners, not Democrats, who voted to stonewall enforcement action over the complaint.

<snip>

Republicans on the commission have repeatedly voted to dismiss complaints against committees of both parties. They often argue that Democratic-appointed commissioners overstep their bounds in enforcing campaign finance law and endanger free speech rights in the process.

“It’s yet another example of the partisan split on the commission not being partisan in the traditional sense,” Fischer said. “Here it was Democratic commissioners voting to enforce campaign finance laws against a Democratic candidate and Republican commissioners doing the opposite.”
Generally speaking, it's very likely that most of the Democrats that you might encounter will be on the side of the Democrats who were trying to uphold campaign finance law, regardless of who violates it.

When Democrats oppose investigation, it tends to be in regards to blatantly political nonsense, and by nonsense, I mean that it's based on demonstrable lies, disinformation, and the like.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
They were 'looking at it'. Muller seemed to think there was something worth looking at, and news reports indicated that they would be investigating. But since then... nothing.
Yup.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
If the FBI had investigated then the matter could be cleared up,
As well as finished and announced the results in whichever way, of course, which isn't guaranteed. They haven't divulged any details regarding that, however, as far as I've seen.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
but if they didn't you can't justify screaming 'no evidence!' from an investigation that wasn't done.
Lack of evidence where evidence would reasonably be expected is one thing. Because of Barr, in particular, though, it's just not a case where evidence would reasonably be expected.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The important questions would then be:- Did they look the other way? Was it covered up? What does 'looking at it' mean if they can't tell us what the result of the 'looking' was? And finally, if nobody looked at it, why not? Something smells...
Something may smell, but, as it stands, we just don't have enough information to justify asking the first and second questions. The third may be a bit off - I'm not aware of any official FBI press statements about investigation into the NRA, just references to said investigation and interest into potential problems. It's hard to fault the FBI, specifically, for not announcing what happened or is still happening with an investigation that they didn't announce in the first place.
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Old 10th July 2020, 01:19 AM   #487
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Not quite sure which thread this best fits in: https://twitter.com/eorden/status/12...720610818?s=20

Quote:
New: Former SDNY U.S. Attorney Geoffrey Berman has told the House Judiciary in his opening statement that in urging him to resign, AG Bill Barr warned him that being fired would “not be good for my resume or future job prospects."

via @jeremyherb @mkraju
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Old 10th July 2020, 07:02 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Not quite sure which thread this best fits in: https://twitter.com/eorden/status/12...720610818?s=20
Swampy.
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Old 10th July 2020, 07:37 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Swampy.
I still can't believe that the DOJ accepted Jerome Corsi's God told me defense, to believe, that you would have to believe God talks to 9/11No Planers-birthers.
I would say that Jerome Corsi got the information from RTV, though Friends are ForLabs when he was in Italy.
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:28 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Not quite sure which thread this best fits in: https://twitter.com/eorden/status/12...720610818?s=20
Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Swampy.
I think it's actually pretty common for an employer to give an employee the option of resigning rather than being fired. (It's also pretty common not to give that option.)

I don't think there's anything unethical about the practice, nor do I think offering the option is indicative of any malfeasance on the part of the employer.

Of course Barr told Berman that being fired looks bad. Because it's true. Probably goes without saying, though. Was Berman taking the opportunity to complain that Barr was treating him like an idiot, by spelling it out?
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:49 AM   #491
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Arguably, getting fired by Trump/Barr is an excellent character reference.
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Old 10th July 2020, 11:13 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it's actually pretty common for an employer to give an employee the option of resigning rather than being fired. (It's also pretty common not to give that option.)

I don't think there's anything unethical about the practice, nor do I think offering the option is indicative of any malfeasance on the part of the employer.

Of course Barr told Berman that being fired looks bad. Because it's true. Probably goes without saying, though. Was Berman taking the opportunity to complain that Barr was treating him like an idiot, by spelling it out?
Why of course! It was a friendly gesture because Berman surely had no idea of how common hiring practices work.

For mental gymnastics, that should be a 9.2 on technique, but unfortunately you flunk on artistic merit.
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Old 10th July 2020, 11:27 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it's actually pretty common for an employer to give an employee the option of resigning rather than being fired.
But you know what's not common? for the employer to announce the resignation of an employee when that employee has not actually offered their resignation.
Quote:
I don't think there's anything unethical about the practice, nor do I think offering the option is indicative of any malfeasance on the part of the employer.
But you know what is unethical? To try to force someone to resign, not because they re doing a poor job, but to allow the position to be filled by someone unsuitable for the job (like, for example, someone who has never tried a case becoming the head of the SDNY, or someone who would likely grant favoritism in their actions).

You know what else is unethical? Lying to the public multiple times... first about how Berman resigned, and then how Trump fired him (both of which were contradicted).
Quote:
Of course Barr told Berman that being fired looks bad. Because it's true. Probably goes without saying, though. Was Berman taking the opportunity to complain that Barr was treating him like an idiot, by spelling it out?
As someone else pointed out... getting fired can look bad. But, when you are talking about the Trump administration, I suspect many people view getting fired as a sign of integrity.
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Old 10th July 2020, 06:26 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it's actually pretty common for an employer to give an employee the option of resigning rather than being fired. (It's also pretty common not to give that option.)

I don't think there's anything unethical about the practice, nor do I think offering the option is indicative of any malfeasance on the part of the employer.

Of course Barr told Berman that being fired looks bad. Because it's true. Probably goes without saying, though. Was Berman taking the opportunity to complain that Barr was treating him like an idiot, by spelling it out?
Another Moebius hoop of contortion in trying to justify, "Nice career youse enjoyin', be a shame if we had to say youse got fired."
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Old 11th July 2020, 01:03 AM   #495
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Trump commutes Roger Stone's sentence

https://twitter.com/CelesteKatzNYC/s...41909338337280

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“Roger Stone is now a free man!” — Here’s the full White House statement on the Trump commutation :
Document embedded in tweet.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/12...236158465?s=20

Quote:
This statement again attacks the jury foreperson. The judge found zero evidence she acted improperly. In fact, a juror chosen by Stone’s team to testify said the foreperson urged them to take more time to consider a charge on which most had already decided Stone was guilty.
https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/12...390974977?s=20

Quote:
31/36 Trump pardons/commutations to Trump personal/political contacts, per Goldsmith count
https://twitter.com/emptywheel/statu...948088832?s=20

Quote:
For those working the White House beat, probably a good time to review how the Chief of Staff defined collusion in the George Papadopoulos interview: trying to optimize the stolen emails.

In short, the Chief of Staff's definition of "collusion" is, "What Roger Stone did.*"

*Did, on Trump's orders.
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Old 11th July 2020, 11:19 AM   #496
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Unprecedented!
Oh, wait....
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Old 11th July 2020, 12:20 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Unprecedented!
Oh, wait....
That was in 2007, when GWB didn't have to think about re-election anymore. It'll be interesting to see what this does to Trump's approval rating. His cultists don't care, of course, but there may still be a few who could spit out the kool-aid.
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Old 11th July 2020, 12:31 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Unprecedented!
Oh, wait....
Everyone might need to wait, because, as the Wiki article you linked mentions,

"presidential commutations are rarely issued, but when granted they have generally occurred after the convicted person has already served a substantial portion of his or her sentence: "We can't find any cases, certainly in the last half-century, where the president commuted a sentence before it had even started to be served," said former Justice Department pardon attorney Margaret Colgate Loveseats"
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Old 11th July 2020, 02:28 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
.....
It'll be interesting to see what this does to Trump's approval rating. His cultists don't care, of course, but there may still be a few who could spit out the kool-aid.
People voted for Trump because they thought or imagined that he would do something for them. Can they now claim they were right? Reagan pretty much won in 1980 when in a debate he asked "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?" For many voters the answer was no. How will the Trumpers answer that question?
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:34 PM   #500
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Mueller is not quite onboard with the Pardon:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...tones-sentence

Looks like Mueller's brilliant strategy of writing a long, stern letter and then wait for justice to happen didn't quite works as well he he thought it would.
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:47 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Mueller is not quite onboard with the Pardon:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...tones-sentence

Looks like Mueller's brilliant strategy of writing a long, stern letter and then wait for justice to happen didn't quite works as well he he thought it would.
So he didn't speak up when he finished his report, and he barely said anything when Barr lied about the Mueller Report, and he didn't speak up during the impeachment inquiry, yet here he is with a big "stern letter" now because one of his little indictments was muddied.

Color me glad he's "concerned" now.
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:24 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So he didn't speak up when he finished his report, and he barely said anything when Barr lied about the Mueller Report, and he didn't speak up during the impeachment inquiry, yet here he is with a big "stern letter" now because one of his little indictments was muddied.

Color me glad he's "concerned" now.
Right? First Comey, then Mueller. Why are Republicans so cowardly?
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:37 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Right? First Comey, then Mueller. Why are Republicans so cowardly?
Republicans are constantly scared of pretty much everything but the real dangers.
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:48 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Republicans are constantly scared of pretty much everything but the real dangers.
Ya, mostly of how other Republicans will react to them. Sadly, Democrats tend to be scared of how Republicans will react too.
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:51 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Ya, mostly of how other Republicans will react to them. Sadly, Democrats tend to be scared of how Republicans will react too.
very true
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:02 PM   #506
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Congress should get Stone back for a hearing and ask him exactly the same questions again.
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:09 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Right? First Comey, then Mueller. Why are Republicans so cowardly?
Because they're cannibals who eat their young?
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:10 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Because they're cannibals who eat their young?
the future belongs to the young - unless we stop them!
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Old 12th July 2020, 01:04 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Mueller is not quite onboard with the Pardon:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...tones-sentence

Looks like Mueller's brilliant strategy of writing a long, stern letter and then wait for justice to happen didn't quite works as well he he thought it would.

Apparently after putting himself out there again with the OP-ed, Graham is going to get him before the judiciary committee. This will be the last chance for questions on both sides. Should be a good one.
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Old 21st July 2020, 11:15 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Wasn't sure where to put this (since there's no dedicated Roger Stone thread), but since he was mentioned here...

Stone is back in the news:

From: NBC
Roger Stone, friend and former campaign adviser to President Donald Trump, called a Black radio host a racial slur on air Saturday while the two debated Stone's federal conviction.... Stone was silent, then it sounded like he was either away from the phone or covering it up when he said, "I don't really feel like arguing with this negro."

Stone has tried to defend himself by alternating claims that he didn't say it (even claiming that he is having a recording of the show analyzed to see if it has been altered), and that negro isn't actually a slur (because it is used in "united negro college fund").

To be honest, the strangest thing I found in the interview was this:

O'Kelly carried on with the interview, asking Stone about his plans to campaign for Trump. "As a private citizen, I will be active on the president's behalf...".

Stone got pardoned under very questionable circumstances, and while there may be a few Trumpanzees who think its just great that he got out of jail, I suspect that the last thing Stubby McBonespurs needs is Roger Stone running around reminding people how the guy who claimed he was going to "drain the swamp" released someone from jail because they were a friend.
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Old 15th September 2020, 02:47 PM   #511
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Wiped cell phones? Nothing to see here folks.
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Old 15th September 2020, 04:03 PM   #512
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Wiped cell phones? Nothing to see here folks.
Depends. Question, do you know what the actual rules and standard practices related to such are, for example? If there are normal data saving requirements, was a backup/digital image made first?

It wouldn't be the first time that groups jumped to spurious conclusions of wrongdoing based on cherry picked facts that don't represent the whole picture well - and the people who have been trying to delegitimize what was actually done by the Mueller investigation have a history of forwarding a set of almost identical failed claims related to Hillary's e-mails.
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Old 15th September 2020, 05:24 PM   #513
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Time will tell.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:00 AM   #514
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Huh, this is old news, but seems to have missed this thread. As of July 2nd, more portions of the Mueller report were unredacted (those that were redacted due to ongoing matters - namely the trial of Stone). Here are links and a summary.

In brief: Trump and others in the campaign knew about and encouraged Stone and Wikileaks, Trump lied to Mueller, and he obstructed justice.

Nothing explosively new, but a little more than there was before.
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Old 16th September 2020, 06:03 PM   #515
Bubba
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Wiped cell phones? Nothing to see here folks.


So true.. Standard procedure for FBI investigations.


Move along now, or be arrested.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:57 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Huh, this is old news, but seems to have missed this thread. As of July 2nd, more portions of the Mueller report were unredacted (those that were redacted due to ongoing matters - namely the trial of Stone). Here are links and a summary.

In brief: Trump and others in the campaign knew about and encouraged Stone and Wikileaks, Trump lied to Mueller, and he obstructed justice.

Nothing explosively new, but a little more than there was before.
The latest Opening Arguments podcast had a segment on this.
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Old 20th September 2020, 11:51 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
The latest Opening Arguments podcast had a segment on this.
Gee....I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell ya! Shocked!
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Old 21st September 2020, 01:25 PM   #518
Segnosaur
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A new book coming out by one of the people that worked on the Mueller investigation.

He has made comments that were... not entirely complementary.

From: CNBC
Andrew Weissmann, a former top deputy to Mueller, in his forthcoming book “Where Law Ends: Inside the Mueller Investigation,” faulted the special counsel and the office for not doing enough to fully investigate potential criminality and to push back on Trump’s efforts to undermine the investigation.

Among his complaints:
- Failing to compel Trump to testify (because they didn't want to have an "explosive confrontation" with the white house

- Reluctance to speak to members of Trump's family (such as not wanting to go after Ivanka because of how it would look in the right wing media, and cause Trump to shut down the investigation)

- Failing to state conclusively that Trump obstructed justice

I have to agree... I think that, even though Mueller did some good things, in the end he botched parts of the investigation and the resulting aftermath.
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Old 21st September 2020, 07:48 PM   #519
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Lesson of the Trump Years: when fighting Republican norm breaking, don't pull your punches.
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