ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 17th October 2020, 07:46 AM   #1
RolandRat
Muse
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 727
Decapitated

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...samuel-paty-47

"A history teacher decapitated outside his secondary school in a Paris suburb on Friday after he showed a caricature of the prophet Muhammad to his pupils has been named.

Samuel Paty, 47, who taught history and geography at the school in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine , north-west of the French capital, was attacked on Friday evening by an 18-year-old man who was shot dead by police shortly afterwards

He said police shot the killer after he shot at police with an air rifle and threatened them with a knife. The killer Abdoulaka Anzorov, 18, who had been given a residency card in March 2020, was a refugee and lived in Évreux in Normandy.

Ricard said the killer had posted a “macabre photo” of the victim on Twitter along with a message which named the victim.

The victim was walking home from school when he was attacked. “He had numerous wounds to the head … and he had been decapitated,” Ricard said. The weapon was found nearby."

Just wow. How do you get so radicalised?

edit - might have posted this in wrong section.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 10:38 AM   #2
sphenisc
Philosopher
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,303
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
...

edit - might have posted this in wrong section.
Yep, pretty sure this will be heading into Social Issues and Current Events.
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 10:39 AM   #3
Scopedog
Muse
 
Scopedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 739
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...samuel-paty-47

"A history teacher decapitated outside his secondary school in a Paris suburb on Friday after he showed a caricature of the prophet Muhammad to his pupils has been named.

Samuel Paty, 47, who taught history and geography at the school in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine , north-west of the French capital, was attacked on Friday evening by an 18-year-old man who was shot dead by police shortly afterwards

He said police shot the killer after he shot at police with an air rifle and threatened them with a knife. The killer Abdoulaka Anzorov, 18, who had been given a residency card in March 2020, was a refugee and lived in Évreux in Normandy.

Ricard said the killer had posted a “macabre photo” of the victim on Twitter along with a message which named the victim.

The victim was walking home from school when he was attacked. “He had numerous wounds to the head … and he had been decapitated,” Ricard said. The weapon was found nearby."

Just wow. How do you get so radicalised?

edit - might have posted this in wrong section.
The neck grazing was mostly peaceful. Are you an Islamophobe?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2015-01-08-charliehebdo1.jpg (78.5 KB, 16 views)
Scopedog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:08 AM   #4
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,010
Let's remember that all cultures are equal. None are more advanced than others in any way, shape or form that matters. Who are we to judge?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:14 AM   #5
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,806
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's remember that all cultures are equal. None are more advanced than others in any way, shape or form that matters. Who are we to judge?
You think there aren't any fanatical idiots in other cultures? Just look back to the history of the Catholics burning people alive and the Protestants drowning women to prove they aren't witches.
__________________
Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:18 AM   #6
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,806
I wish to hell every news publisher worth their salt would publish these stupid cartoons so that they saturate the world and can no longer be focused into a threat against one person or group.

I remember when the Hebdo attack occurred, and the issue with the Dutch cartoons and news media representatives were claiming they shouldn't offend Muslims. Yes they should! Get it over with. Make the cartoons so common they become non-issues.
__________________
Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:28 AM   #7
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,376
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You think there aren't any fanatical idiots in other cultures? Just look back to the history of the Catholics burning people alive and the Protestants drowning women to prove they aren't witches.
... 400 years ago.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:34 AM   #8
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,649
I wonder how the killer thought about what he was doing. Somewhere between "it's my duty to do this, a disgrace if I don't, and this way I get to go to heaven" and "this will show these Westerners they can't **** with us; it's the underdog's version of a lynch mob and they need to know their place" perhaps. I imagine the actual result is just to convince more Westerners that Muslims are savage murderers incapable of reasoned thought, little more than killer robots.

This will end well. (Sarcasm, obviously. Like it's going to end.)
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:36 AM   #9
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,649
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... 400 years ago.
Well, Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity. These events might have tailed off by mid-millennium.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:51 AM   #10
autumn1971
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,231
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... 400 years ago.
Okay, then shooting doctors and attacking health-care facilities.
And bulldozing houses to force people out to move their people in.
Or attacking Muslims in the streets.
Or killing people for being homosexual.

Most of the above apply to several religious groups on every continent.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 12:00 PM   #11
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,010
Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Okay, then shooting doctors and attacking health-care facilities.
And bulldozing houses to force people out to move their people in.
Or attacking Muslims in the streets.
Or killing people for being homosexual.

Most of the above apply to several religious groups on every continent.
Yep, every society is equally guilty or equally blameless, not sure exactly which way you are going with this.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 12:09 PM   #12
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I wonder how the killer thought about what he was doing. Somewhere between "it's my duty to do this, a disgrace if I don't, and this way I get to go to heaven" and "this will show these Westerners they can't **** with us; it's the underdog's version of a lynch mob and they need to know their place" perhaps. I imagine the actual result is just to convince more Westerners that Muslims are savage murderers incapable of reasoned thought, little more than killer robots.

This will end well. (Sarcasm, obviously. Like it's going to end.)
The murderer was perhaps under the influence of the Islamic State, which may encourage Muslims to carry out such attacks.

This is certainly a savage and horrific attack, but it is objectively less violent that the mass murder (through bombing) that Western nations routinely do against the Islamic State in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan ...

Superficially, you might think that this grave incident is only related to cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, but there is probably a broader political context which plays an important role.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 12:32 PM   #13
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,649
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The murderer was perhaps under the influence of the Islamic State, which may encourage Muslims to carry out such attacks.

This is certainly a savage and horrific attack, but it is objectively less violent that the mass murder (through bombing) that Western nations routinely do against the Islamic State in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan ...

Superficially, you might think that this grave incident is only related to cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, but there is probably a broader political context which plays an important role.
You make it sound as if the Islamic State might be a rather unpleasant bunch to have as neighbours. It wouldn't surprise me if they found themselves at war through such provocations. Oh, wait, look - they are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami..._war_with_ISIL

It looks as if they're at war with quite a lot of the planet. Something about their poicy of "if you're not with us, you die" attitude might account for that.

Anyway, yes, any individual murder (no matter how gruesome or savage, and no matter how ludicrous we find the justification claimed by the perpetrator) is less violent than an actual war.

So?
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 12:45 PM   #14
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
You make it sound as if the Islamic State might be a rather unpleasant bunch to have as neighbours. It wouldn't surprise me if they found themselves at war through such provocations. Oh, wait, look - they are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami..._war_with_ISIL

It looks as if they're at war with quite a lot of the planet. Something about their poicy of "if you're not with us, you die" attitude might account for that.

Anyway, yes, any individual murder (no matter how gruesome or savage, and no matter how ludicrous we find the justification claimed by the perpetrator) is less violent than an actual war.

So?
So, I would say: "Stop the war", and you may find that Islamic State people (and those who are under their influence - and perhaps frustrated or desperate, for a number of reasons) become suddenly - and almost miraculously - much more tolerant and open-minded.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 12:50 PM   #15
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,649
It takes two to stop a war, and it seems to me you have a very, very peculiar view of what the Islamic State believes in if you think it might become tolerant or open-minded if other countries cease to oppose it.

Tolerance and open-mindedness are not qualities the IS regard as good.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 01:02 PM   #16
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,013
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Just wow. How do you get so radicalised?
Probably exactly the same was Fred Phelps got people to commit hate crimes against gays - read them a book that means 100 different things to 100 different people and explain that your interpretation is the only one that matters.

South Africa used their holy book to encourage Apartheid, Islamists use theirs to encourage terrorism, US "christians" use their holy book to say that Jesus wants you to own guns.

See a pattern?
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 01:12 PM   #17
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,000
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It takes two to stop a war, and it seems to me you have a very, very peculiar view of what the Islamic State believes in if you think it might become tolerant or open-minded if other countries cease to oppose it.

Tolerance and open-mindedness are not qualities the IS regard as good.
There won't be as many IS if...

That's the start of several paragraphs of explaining how stochastic terror recruitment works.

I can't be bothered to finish.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 07:09 PM   #18
Scopedog
Muse
 
Scopedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 739
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Probably exactly the same was Fred Phelps got people to commit hate crimes against gays - read them a book that means 100 different things to 100 different people and explain that your interpretation is the only one that matters.

South Africa used their holy book to encourage Apartheid, Islamists use theirs to encourage terrorism, US "christians" use their holy book to say that Jesus wants you to own guns.

See a pattern?
I'm an atheist disdainful of all religions and I consider Westburo Baptist Church and Jewish Ultra Orthodox and Islamic State to be the most authentic practice of their original religions. Muslim authentic religion seems to be the most reprehensible.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Madeline-Zucker-Muhammad-Medusa-758x1024.jpg (84.6 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by Scopedog; 17th October 2020 at 07:15 PM.
Scopedog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 08:23 PM   #19
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 57,581
As much fun as it is to go directly to thundering denunciations of broad pieces of culture, for those who like their information with some fleshing out there's a couple of details:

Quote:
Details of the attack and investigation were given by the anti-terrorism state prosecutor, Jean-François Ricard.

He named the suspect as Abdoulakh A. - an 18-year-old man, born in Moscow of Chechen origin. He came to France with refugee status as a boy and was unknown to anti-terrorism police.
A Moscow-born ethnic Chechen who came to France as a refugee. And is 18 years old. Hmmm. Perhaps I'm just a genius when it comes to human psychology but I see a teensy bit of possibility there that maybe there are multiple factors at work in why a person would commit such a crime? And that it's not simple RELIGION (or ONE PARTICULAR RELIGION) BAD?

Nah, that can't be it. Carry on frothing at the mouth. At least that's entertaining for the spectators.


BBC story
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 08:23 PM   #20
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,153
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This is certainly a savage and horrific attack, but it is objectively less violent that the mass murder (through bombing) that Western nations routinely do against the Islamic State in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan ...
When has the West decapitated a schoolteacher in Afghanistan?

Did you like it when ISIS burned the Jordanian pilot alive?

Last edited by zooterkin; 18th October 2020 at 03:08 AM. Reason: Removing image of violent death. Rule 2
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 11:30 PM   #21
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 15,489
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's remember that all cultures are equal. None are more advanced than others in any way, shape or form that matters. Who are we to judge?
Let's remember that all cultures have their extremists None are more advanced than others in any way, shape or form that matters.
__________________
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, homophobes and misogynists to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 03:56 AM   #22
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 28,123
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Let's remember that all cultures have their extremists None are more advanced than others in any way, shape or form that matters.
That's clearly not the case.

Purely in terms of technology, which is generally uncontroversial, there are plenty of cultures that are more advanced than others. Or in terms of education and literacy, or in terms of healthcare, or, perhaps more open to argument, in terms of human rights, or ideas of tolerance etc...

Now obviously you could say that the Taliban and Finland merely have different ideas about how women should be treated if you wish, but that would just mean cutting yourself off at the knees if you wanted to complain about anyone's ethics.

I would say at this point, this particular incident could be, for all we know, just an unhinged individual. But there is no doubt that the ideas of the Islamic state are far more toxic than those of France.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 04:24 AM   #23
RolandRat
Muse
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 727
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As much fun as it is to go directly to thundering denunciations of broad pieces of culture, for those who like their information with some fleshing out there's a couple of details:



A Moscow-born ethnic Chechen who came to France as a refugee. And is 18 years old. Hmmm. Perhaps I'm just a genius when it comes to human psychology but I see a teensy bit of possibility there that maybe there are multiple factors at work in why a person would commit such a crime? And that it's not simple RELIGION (or ONE PARTICULAR RELIGION) BAD?

Nah, that can't be it. Carry on frothing at the mouth. At least that's entertaining for the spectators.


BBC story
That's interesting. I wonder under what grounds he claimed refugee status.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 04:51 AM   #24
ThatGuy11200
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 288
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
So, I would say: "Stop the war", and you may find that Islamic State people (and those who are under their influence - and perhaps frustrated or desperate, for a number of reasons) become suddenly - and almost miraculously - much more tolerant and open-minded.
Islamic State is a mass-murdering, mass-raping, slaver death-cult. If the war is stopped they'll continue murdering, raping and enslaving.
ThatGuy11200 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 07:57 AM   #25
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,000
Has some kind of IS connection even been established?
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 08:02 AM   #26
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Islamic State is a mass-murdering, mass-raping, slaver death-cult. If the war is stopped they'll continue murdering, raping and enslaving.
The existence and development of this organization is closely related to the (illegal) invasion of Iraq by the U.S. (and its allies) in 2003 (the "Islamic State of Iraq" was created in October 2006), so I personally view it as a brutal resistance movement. As resistance fighters, they should in principle be freed, and be treated with a minimum of respect (as opposed to mass-murdered). It would also be desirable that they adopt some universal values often associated with the West (democracy, respect for women's rights, freedom of expression and religion ...). I would hope that they could be convinced of the interest of these things (perhaps through education in their prisons). Another fundamental aspect (and root cause of trouble) is respect for the rights of Palestinians.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 08:03 AM   #27
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,649
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Has some kind of IS connection even been established?
No.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 08:18 AM   #28
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,649
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The existence and development of this organization is closely related to the (illegal) invasion of Iraq by the U.S. (and its allies) in 2003 (the "Islamic State of Iraq" was created in October 2006), so I personally view it as a brutal resistance movement. As resistance fighters, they should in principle be freed, and be treated with a minimum of respect (as opposed to mass-murdered). It would also be desirable that they adopt some universal values often associated with the West (democracy, respect for women's rights, freedom of expression and religion ...). I would hope that they could be convinced of the interest of these things (perhaps through education in their prisons). Another fundamental aspect (and root cause of trouble) is respect for the rights of Palestinians.
You don't appear to know what IS is. Arguably, Al Qaeda is a resistance group which wants to drive non-Muslims out of Muslim lands, but IS is not. IS grew into the power vacuum cause by the invasion of Iraq and the insurrections of the "Arab Spring" and is not principally interested in fighting Americans; it wants to establish a worldwide caliphate and to destroy any opponents, especially the wrong kind of Muslims. It expects to fulfil prophecy by bringing the power of "Rome" to a final battle of Armageddon in which IS itself will be all but destroyed and yet will rise to establish the final world caliphate in Jerusalem and everyone lives happily ever after (except those who fail to obey all the rules fastidiously, who will be put to death as the law requires).

They are a maniacal death cult. They're not just the baddies because they're the other side. They don't want us all to be friends. They want your obedience or death. You might as well offer a truce to the Borg.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 08:23 AM   #29
RolandRat
Muse
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 727
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post

They are a maniacal death cult. They're not just the baddies because they're the other side. They don't want us all to be friends. They want your obedience or death. You might as well offer a truce to the Borg.
The Borg are more tolerant.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 08:27 AM   #30
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Has some kind of IS connection even been established?
I am not aware of a definite and proven link (so far), though the attacker was heard shouting: "Allahu Akbar", or "God is Greatest". However,
Quote:
Islamic State calls for terror attacks in France, Belgium
New video released by jihadist group encourages Muslims to wreak havoc, kill infidels in Europe
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/islami...rance-belgium/)

This article is from 2015, but I don't think their ideology has changed much. In November 2019:
Quote:
ISIS fanatics are urged to attack America and Europe with forest fires and spark ecological carnage in chilling propaganda
(https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-carnage.html)
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 09:04 AM   #31
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 57,581
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I would say at this point, this particular incident could be, for all we know, just an unhinged individual. But there is no doubt that the ideas of the Islamic state are far more toxic than those of France.
And yet this occurred in France, not in the small portions of Syria (and Iraq?) still controlled by ISIL. Clearly something about life in France wasn't sufficiently wonderful for this individual, or else he wouldn't have done it. If there is interest in understanding this incident, and preventing future ones, then it needs to be examined in light of the actual circumstances surrounding it, not the declared political/religious objectives of somewhere else on another continent. Even if he deliberately and uncritically embraced the official values of ISIL the question is still "why did he do that?" not "oh, he signed up with the Official Evil Team, enough said."
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 09:36 AM   #32
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,000
One individual's actions being made fodder for slandering entire classes of people such that they also become radicalized, yada yada yada...

Things that we've been discussing for 10+ years and anyone interested in the topic beyond parading their bigotry around could have easily discovered by now.

The denigrating reaction is part of the recruitment.

Why are some here actively helping IS?
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 09:49 AM   #33
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 886
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
So, I would say: "Stop the war", and you may find that Islamic State people (and those who are under their influence - and perhaps frustrated or desperate, for a number of reasons) become suddenly - and almost miraculously - much more tolerant and open-minded.
Tolerance and open mind do not belong to the Islamic State people mental software.

The core of their ideology is "¡Viva la muerte!".
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 09:57 AM   #34
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 886
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It would also be desirable that they adopt some universal values often associated with the West (democracy, respect for women's rights, freedom of expression and religion ...). I would hope that they could be convinced of the interest of these things (perhaps through education in their prisons).
You could also have asked Adolf and Heinrich to drop their racist theories. The results would be exactly the same.

They are convinced that they are the only ones who apply correctly the Quran and that Muslims who do no live like they do are apostates who deserve to be killed.

You might maybe manage convince a few individuals but not the whole group.
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 10:42 AM   #35
RolandRat
Muse
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 727
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Even if he deliberately and uncritically embraced the official values of ISIL the question is still "why did he do that?" not "oh, he signed up with the Official Evil Team, enough said."
I agree. From the little I can find, he was granted a residency card in France in March this year. According to the Russian embassy he has had no ties with Russia since 2008 so I'm assuming that's when he left the country. He would have been six at the time. Whether he went directly to France I don't know.

This story is strange. According to the school:

"“The professor contested firmly that he asked Muslim students to identify themselves and leave the class,” Ricard said. He showed several caricatures from Charlie Hebdo but suggested those who might be upset did not have to see them, "

Again according to the school, one of the female pupils complained and her father got involved but the school states she wasn't even in the class at the time.

It's not currently known if the killer actually attended that school. Only other information I found about him was:

"The man was not known to the intelligence services’, but as it was already known, he was known to the police for criminal offenses, but he had no criminal record. He was not known as a radicalized Muslim."

Nine people have currently been arrested. I suppose more information will come out soon.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 12:03 PM   #36
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 886
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
It's not currently known if the killer actually attended that school. Only other information I found about him was:

"The man was not known to the intelligence services’, but as it was already known, he was known to the police for criminal offenses, but he had no criminal record. He was not known as a radicalized Muslim."

Nine people have currently been arrested. I suppose more information will come out soon.
The killer did not attend the school. He is 18 y.o and the pulis who attend the course are 12-13 y.o. Furthermore the killer was leaving in a city which is 90 km away from the school.

It is likey that he got his attention drawn on the teacher by a story published on facebook, youtube and other social media networks where a self proclaimed extremist imam belonging to the muslim brotherhood was pourring gas on the story. He stopped just short of issuing a fatwa against the teacher.
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 01:10 PM   #37
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,013
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps I'm just a genius when it comes to human psychology but I see a teensy bit of possibility there that maybe there are multiple factors at work in why a person would commit such a crime? And that it's not simple RELIGION (or ONE PARTICULAR RELIGION) BAD?
I'm quite sure there are lots of factors, but it's an inescapable fact that religion is the enabler.

Did his religion and religious contacts help him seek help for his mental issues, or did they encourage his radicalisation?
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 02:02 PM   #38
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 57,581
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm quite sure there are lots of factors, but it's an inescapable fact that religion is the enabler.

Did his religion and religious contacts help him seek help for his mental issues, or did they encourage his radicalisation?
I don't think that's an inescapable fact. Religion is the excuse given, but I'd wager that the actual cause was feeling alienated from the society he lives in. Want to bet on his economic circumstances, career situation, and home life? Somehow I'm disinclined to think he had a stable job, made good money, and had a supporting family and friends around him. Happy people don't do things like that, and belonging to a particular religion isn't itself a root cause of unhappiness. It's a good excuse for acting out, though, as the unhappy invidual can claim to be just carrying out divine will and cast themselves as a beloved hero of heaven.

Religious mania is a common manifestation of insanity; religion doesn't make people crazy, but crazy people can use religion to make some sense of the world.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 02:11 PM   #39
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 886
He is what he posted on the social networks after he kille the teacher:

"From Abdullah, the servant of Allah, to Marcon [sic], the leader of the infidels, I executed one of your hellhounds who dared to belittle Muhammad, calm his fellow men before a harsh punishment was inflicted on you..."
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 03:10 PM   #40
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,000
Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
The killer did not attend the school. He is 18 y.o and the pulis who attend the course are 12-13 y.o. Furthermore the killer was leaving in a city which is 90 km away from the school.



It is likey that he got his attention drawn on the teacher by a story published on facebook, youtube and other social media networks where a self proclaimed extremist imam belonging to the muslim brotherhood was pourring gas on the story. He stopped just short of issuing a fatwa against the teacher.
First I'd want to know does this Imam exist, is their connection to the Muslim Brotherhood well documented, did said individual make a post like you describe, and did the assailant read it?

Just hoping that can get cleared up, already tired of chasing after hysterical, boogeyman-term laden hypotheses with not a scrap of evidence.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:35 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.