ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Emily Conover , superconductivity , superconductors

Reply
Old 14th October 2020, 05:41 PM   #1
Solitaire
Neoclinus blanchardi
 
Solitaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,409
Room Temperature Superconductor Found

The First Room-Temperature Superconductor Has Finally Been Found by Emily Conover

15°C? Brr. That's kind of cold. I like a room temperature of around 22°C myself.
__________________
Be very careful what you put in your head, because you will never get it out again. — Phineas Gage
Solitaire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2020, 05:56 PM   #2
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,213
They traded low temperature for high pressure. And even then only at a single point. So not really any closer to practical applications than before.

A superconductor is worthless if the power needed to pressurize it or supercool it is greater than the power it's supposed to be conducting.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2020, 11:59 PM   #3
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 26,166
This is only a proof of concept. The next step is to get to work under reduced pressure.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 09:01 AM   #4
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,213
Or under increased temperature. The search for a room-temperature superconductor has been going on for a long time. The headline oversells the progress.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 11:16 AM   #5
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,799
I wonder if there are places in the Universe where the conditions for this superconductivity occur naturally?

I got as far as converting 200 Gigapixels to Kg/M2. It's 20394324259.558
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 12:08 PM   #6
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,157
Inside a Neutron Star is my guess.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 04:27 PM   #7
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,799
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Inside a Neutron Star is my guess.
A bit more Googling shows that neutron stars are not required. Pressures even at the surface of a neutron star are at least 12 orders of magnitude more than required!

Jupiter seems a better bet. Per Wikipedia "The temperature and pressure inside Jupiter increase steadily inward, due to the Kelvin–Helmholtz mechanism. At the pressure level of 10 bars (1 MPa), the temperature is around 340 K (67 °C; 152 °F). At the phase transition region where hydrogen—heated beyond its critical point—becomes metallic, it is calculated the temperature is 10,000 K (9,700 °C; 17,500 °F) and the pressure is 200 GPa. The temperature at the core boundary is estimated to be 36,000 K (35,700 °C; 64,300 °F) and the interior pressure is roughly 3,000–4,500 GPa

Just find a fully cooled down Jupiter and we may be on to something.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 04:42 PM   #8
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,102
Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
The First Room-Temperature Superconductor Has Finally Been Found by Emily Conover

15°C? Brr. That's kind of cold. I like a room temperature of around 22°C myself.
No matter what temperature a room is, it is always at room temperature.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 05:16 PM   #9
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,213
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
No matter what temperature a room is, it is always at room temperature.
And every environment is a shirt-sleeve environment, if you go into it in your shirt sleeves.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 08:47 PM   #10
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,102
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And every environment is a shirt-sleeve environment, if you go into it in your shirt sleeves.
Not by any definition of shirt-sleeve environment, most commonly defined as, “ Shirt-sleeve environment" is a term used in aircraft design to describe the interior of an aircraft in which no special clothing need be worn.”

While the ISS is a shirt-sleeve environment, an EVA outside the ISS is not. Sure, you could try just wearing shirt-sleeves, but you would not enjoy it (for long).
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th October 2020, 09:01 PM   #11
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,157
It might be quite easy to have superconducting wires on the deep ocean floor then: cool and pressure.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2020, 09:15 AM   #12
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,799
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It might be quite easy to have superconducting wires on the deep ocean floor then: cool and pressure.
Maybe cool enough but nowhere near the right pressure. " . . . pressure at the Marianas Trench to be about 1.1 × 10^8 Pa" ie 1.1 GPa. So a couples of orders of magnitude too low.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2020, 09:17 AM   #13
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,157
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Maybe cool enough but nowhere near the right pressure. " . . . pressure at the Marianas Trench to be about 1.1 × 10^8 Pa" ie 1.1 GPa. So a couples of orders of magnitude too low.
we might expect that we will need less pressure once more research is done.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2020, 09:18 AM   #14
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,635
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I got as far as converting 200 Gigapixels ...
So did autocorrupt, it appears.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2020, 09:31 AM   #15
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,213
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Not by any definition of shirt-sleeve environment, most commonly defined as, “ Shirt-sleeve environment" is a term used in aircraft design to describe the interior of an aircraft in which no special clothing need be worn.”

While the ISS is a shirt-sleeve environment, an EVA outside the ISS is not. Sure, you could try just wearing shirt-sleeves, but you would not enjoy it (for long).
Turns out "room temperature" is also commonly commonly defined - to a much narrower range than "any room at any temperature is at room temperature". There are even specific ranges defined in some industries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_t...e_and_industry
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2020, 04:45 PM   #16
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,102
WTV
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2020, 05:26 PM   #17
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,799
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So did autocorrupt, it appears.
Damn Splll Chucker!
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th October 2020, 11:39 PM   #18
GodMark2
Master Poster
 
GodMark2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 2,146
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Maybe cool enough but nowhere near the right pressure. " . . . pressure at the Marianas Trench to be about 1.1 × 10^8 Pa" ie 1.1 GPa. So a couples of orders of magnitude too low.
Ummm... wouldn't that be 0.11 GPa?
Code:
Kilo = 10^3
Mega = 10^6
Giga = 10^9

So, even another magnitude too low.
__________________
Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.
GodMark2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 09:39 AM   #19
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,799
Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
Ummm... wouldn't that be 0.11 GPa?
Code:
Kilo = 10^3
Mega = 10^6
Giga = 10^9

So, even another magnitude too low.
Ah. So someone is paying attention. Just testing.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 03:54 PM   #20
sphenisc
Philosopher
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,295
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Ah. So someone is paying attention. Just testing.
Nobody's paying attention. It was found by Ranga Dias and his colleagues. Emily Conover just wrote the article.
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 09:48 PM   #21
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,799
Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Nobody's paying attention. It was found by Ranga Dias and his colleagues. Emily Conover just wrote the article.
And the paper was just published on 14 October 2020 in Nature.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2801-z
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2020, 10:36 PM   #22
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,230
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They traded low temperature for high pressure. And even then only at a single point. So not really any closer to practical applications than before.

A superconductor is worthless if the power needed to pressurize it or supercool it is greater than the power it's supposed to be conducting.
Cooling to liquid nitrogen temperature is actually fairly cheap. High pressure does not require much energy at all, and can be maintained without energy input indefinitely. But it's not even possible to get to static pressures this large outside of diamond anvil cells, and thus it's useless for any applications.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 12:36 AM   #23
sphenisc
Philosopher
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,295
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Cooling to liquid nitrogen temperature is actually fairly cheap. High pressure does not require much energy at all, and can be maintained without energy input indefinitely. But it's not even possible to get to static pressures this large outside of diamond anvil cells, and thus it's useless for any applications.
Which raises the question "What's the next level down for pressure generation and how much cheaper/easier is it?"
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 09:12 AM   #24
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,230
Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Which raises the question "What's the next level down for pressure generation and how much cheaper/easier is it?"
High pressure in physics terms is orders of magnitude higher than high pressure in industrial terms. The kinds of pressure industrial techniques use to create pressure on large scales (for example, pressurize water lines) isn't enough to really move the needle on something like superconductivity temperatures. Basically there's no real way to do what would need to be done on the scale of something like a power line. The in-principle stuff, even below a diamond anvil cell, would be so expensive there's no point in even trying to calculate the costs.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 09:17 AM   #25
GodMark2
Master Poster
 
GodMark2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 2,146
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Cooling to liquid nitrogen temperature is actually fairly cheap. High pressure does not require much energy at all, and can be maintained without energy input indefinitely. But it's not even possible to get to static pressures this large outside of diamond anvil cells, and thus it's useless for any applications.
I see this is as a practical manifestation of the adage "When a measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure". For so many years, the only measure of the 'goodness' of a semiconductor was "How high is it's transition temperature". That was fine, when comparing samples in otherwise unchanged conditions. But somewhere, it changed from "Transition temperature is a good way to measure our progress toward a widely useful semiconductor" to "Transition temperature IS progress in semiconductors". This completely forgets the "widely useful" portion of the equation.

Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Which raises the question "What's the next level down for pressure generation and how much cheaper/easier is it?"
As long as they keep getting new funding each time they increase the transition temperature, transition temperature is what they'll focus on. As long as that is the case, improvements in other usability areas (like pressure) are likely to go investigated. They might find something accidentally, but they won't focus on looking for it, because the guaranteed funding is elsewhere.
__________________
Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.
GodMark2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2020, 01:36 PM   #26
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,230
Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
I see this is as a practical manifestation of the adage "When a measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure". For so many years, the only measure of the 'goodness' of a semiconductor was "How high is it's transition temperature". That was fine, when comparing samples in otherwise unchanged conditions. But somewhere, it changed from "Transition temperature is a good way to measure our progress toward a widely useful semiconductor" to "Transition temperature IS progress in semiconductors". This completely forgets the "widely useful" portion of the equation.
<nitpick> Superconductors, not semiconductors. </nitpick>

While that may be a contributing factor, the issue is a bit more fundamental than that.

The bigger problem is simply that cuprate superconductor research (where the high-Tc stuff began) has essentially run out of steam. Most of what can be tried, has been tried. There's still a lot to be figured out in terms of the fundamental physics, but that's been very resistant to understanding on a deep level, and so a breakthrough there may be tomorrow, or maybe decades away.

So where else do you go with new research? High pressure is one of the few places where (1) we know it makes superconductivity more likely, and (2) there's a hell of a lot of material phase space left unexplored. If you're a new professor hoping to get tenure, you need to spend your time doing research that's going to get you publishable results. And working on high pressure phase diagrams is a pretty reliable way to do that. The record Tc's are nice, but they aren't actually the driving force here. Any new material that superconducts under pressure is going to get you a paper, whether or not the Tc is record-setting.

If there was a reliable avenue for developing better superconductors even at lower temperatures, people would pursue those avenues. The unfortunate reality is that we don't know of any.

As I mentioned already, liquid nitrogen is cheap. We already have materials that can superconduct at those temperatures without high pressures. But they aren't good materials for making wires out of. If you could develop a material that would superconduct at liquid nitrogen temperature and ambient pressure AND which was good for making wires, then you'd be rich. The reason that hasn't happened yet isn't because people have been blinded by chasing record Tc's. It's because we've already tried everything we can think of, and people have run out of good ideas. Sadly, it may not even be possible.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:37 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.