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Tags Coronavirus , diseases

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Old 18th November 2020, 08:09 AM   #2921
lomiller
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It means precisely that, if they would have lived in the absence of the other conditions, and the statistics imply that they would have..
They would have lived without contracting Covid-19. The existence of co-morbidities doesn't change the immediate cause of death which is still Covid-19.
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Old 18th November 2020, 08:15 AM   #2922
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Pfizer report 94% vaccine effectiveness, with minimal side-effects, and best of all, strong protection for 65+ age group.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54986208

Science rocks!
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Old 18th November 2020, 08:47 AM   #2923
dann
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WARNING! New Danish study of face masks

I am afraid that anti-maskers may start referring to this study. I have already seen some very misleading headlines in Danish media, so notice the part of the quotation I have highlighted:

Quote:
Limitation:
Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.
Conclusion:
The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection.
Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers - A Randomized Controlled Trial (Annals of Internal Medicine)

The study was carried out in April and May in Denmark when almost nobody used face masks outside of hospital settings, and it did not study if face masks prevented or decreased transmission of the virus from infected mask wearers.
(The study wasn't blinded for pretty obvious reasons! )
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Last edited by dann; 18th November 2020 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 18th November 2020, 09:20 AM   #2924
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It means precisely that, if they would have lived in the absence of the other conditions, and the statistics imply that they would have.

German study:
Quote:
86 Prozent der Verstorbenen, die mit Sars-CoV-2 infiziert waren, sind an dem Virus gestorben. Das hat jetzt eine Analyse des Bundesverbandes der Pathologen von 154 Obduktionen in Deutschland ergeben.
Von 154 untersuchten, in deutschen Kliniken verstorbenen Covid-19-Patienten starben 86 Prozent an der Sars-CoV-2-Infektion und nicht an ihren Vorerkrankungen. Das geht zumindest aus ihren Obduktionen hervor. Die Ergebnisse wurden vor einer Woche vom Bundesverband Deutscher Pathologen vorgestellt.
86 Prozent sterben nicht mit sondern an Corona (Welt.de, Aug. 27, 2020)
86 percent of the deceased who were infected with SARS-CoV-2, died of the virus, according to an analysis of 154 autopsies in Germany by the Federal Association of Pathologists.
Of 154 examined Covid-19 patients who had died in German hospitals, 86 percent died of the SARS-CoV-2 infection and not of their co-morbidities. At least, that is what their autopsies show. The results were presented a week ago by the Federal Association of German Pathologists.
86 percent don’t die with, they die of corona

Danish study:
Quote:
- I øjeblikket er 697 registreret døde. Vi har lavet et review af dødsattesterne på en stor stikprøve af de her patienter. Og her er det over 95 procent, der er døde af en diagnose, der er forenelig med corona.
- Dermed er langt størstedelen af personerne formentlig døde af corona, siger Kåre Mølbak.
Han peger på, at dødsfaldene også er blandt personer i 40'erne og 50'erne.
- Så det er ikke en sygdom, man skal spøge med, siger Kåre Mølbak.
Kåre Mølbak: Folk dør ikke med corona – de dør af corona (Ritzau/TVsyd.dk, Oct. 23, 2020)
At this point, there are 697 deaths. We have made a review of the death certificates of a sample of these patients. And it shows that more than 95 percent have died of a diagnosis that is consistent with corona.
- So the vast majority of them probably died of corona, says Kåre Mølbak.
He points out that the deaths also occurred in people in their forties and fifties.
- So the disease is not to be taken lightly.
Kåre Mølbak: People don’t die with corona – they die of corona

Kåre Mølbak is our local Dr. Fauci!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th November 2020, 09:39 AM   #2925
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Are you implying these people have less value or that their deaths don't matter as much?
Why are you, The Atheist, Ginger and Ramjets implying that this is my point?

The discussion is about the science surrounding Covid 19.

That includes information about why some people die from it and some don't.

I have never mentioned the relative value of any of the lives lost, but your bunch seems to hang on that , rather than the actual science being discussed.

Projection going on here?

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What you haven't done is explain why that matters wrt pandemic related restrictions.
What you haven't done is read what I shared.

Comorbidity and its Impact on Patients with COVID-19
Quote:
Patients with comorbidities should take all necessary precautions to avoid getting infected with SARS CoV-2, as they usually have the worst prognosis.
I'm not suggesting anyone should not use whatever restrictions they feel are warranted, but it's ignorant to suggest there is not a more at risk population and that enhanced restrictions would not be more beneficial when it comes to saving lives.

The focus seems to be more on total numbers rather than what would actually reduce death and serious complications.
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Old 18th November 2020, 09:45 AM   #2926
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So you're saying that having Covid-19 and dying in a car accident, from cancer, etc. should be counted in the numbers of deaths? Because they are doing that and it has been admitted.
It depends which figures you are looking at, and what they are showing.

In the UK, we have daily reports of new cases, new deaths, hospitalisations, etc. The death figures are based on having had a positive test and then dying. When the figures first started, there was no time limit; this was a reasonable approximation, as there was little time for someone to have died of anything else. As time went on, and testing was broadened beyond just those showing symptoms, and the effects of the lockdown meant fewer people were dying, the number of people dying from something else after a positive test maybe months before started to become significant, so they now have a 28-day cut-off. Sure, someone could still have a positive test and then get run over within 28 days, but it's good enough for a daily report, because detailed cause of death is not available.

We know the figures are good enough, and are in fact an underestimate of the number of deaths due to Covid-19 because there is also a weekly report by the Office of National Statistics (ONS) which looks at the cause of death as recorded on the death certificate. This makes a distinction, too, between Covid-19 being a factor, and it being the primary cause of death. These figures broadly agree with the daily death figures (in fact, a 60-day cut-off on the daily figures would be a better approximation).

On top of this, the ONS figures show the number of excess deaths - the number of people who have died more than expected compared with the 5 year average. This shows, for 2020, over 50,000 more people have died than expected, and the distribution closely matches the peaks and troughs of Covid-19 cases.

I imagine the US has something similar.

As for comparing Covid-19 with flu, ONS has another useful paper.

Quote:
Of all death occurrences between January and August 2020, there were 48,168 deaths due to the coronavirus (COVID-19) compared with 13,619 deaths due to pneumonia and 394 deaths due to influenza.

...

“More than three times as many deaths were recorded between January and August this year where COVID-19 was the underlying cause compared to influenza and pneumonia."

“The mortality rate for COVID-19 is also significantly higher than influenza and pneumonia rates for both 2020 and the five-year average."

“Since 1959, which is when ONS monthly death records began, the number of deaths due to influenza and pneumonia in the first eight months of every year have been lower than the number of COVID-19 deaths seen, so far, in 2020.”
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Old 18th November 2020, 09:55 AM   #2927
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
German study:

86 percent of the deceased who were infected with SARS-CoV-2, died of the virus, according to an analysis of 154 autopsies in Germany by the Federal Association of Pathologists.
Of 154 examined Covid-19 patients who had died in German hospitals, 86 percent died of the SARS-CoV-2 infection and not of their co-morbidities. At least, that is what their autopsies show. The results were presented a week ago by the Federal Association of German Pathologists.
86 percent don’t die with, they die of corona

Danish study:

At this point, there are 697 deaths. We have made a review of the death certificates of a sample of these patients. And it shows that more than 95 percent have died of a diagnosis that is consistent with corona.
- So the vast majority of them probably died of corona, says Kåre Mølbak.
He points out that the deaths also occurred in people in their forties and fifties.
- So the disease is not to be taken lightly.
Kåre Mølbak: People don’t die with corona – they die of corona

Kåre Mølbak is our local Dr. Fauci!
I can post tens if not hundreds of links about Comorbidity and covid 19, but you know how to Google..


The smiling face some kind of " see I told you " ?
How condescending.

Yes, it is the virus that leads to the death of people who contracted the virus.
It kills them because they have compromised immune systems.
People with stronger immune systems, for whatever reasons; genetics, over-all health = lack of underlying conditions, tend to survive in spite of the virus.
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Old 18th November 2020, 09:59 AM   #2928
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It means precisely that, if they would have lived in the absence of the other conditions, and the statistics imply that they would have..

Comorbidity and its Impact on Patients with COVID-19

Conclusion: ( Excerpt)


It represents a failure of the healthcare system in general ( Not healthcare workers, before the sanctimonious jump on me for implying such..) and the political engine that drives it, not just for covid 19, but for the health and well being of everyone in general.
This, of course, is utter nonsense. I called this “logic” Trumpian earlier because it is.
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:02 AM   #2929
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can post tens if not hundreds of links about Comorbidity and covid 19, but you know how to Google..


The smiling face some kind of " see I told you " ?
How condescending.

Yes, it is the virus that leads to the death of people who contracted the virus.
It kills them because they have compromised immune systems.
People with stronger immune systems, for whatever reasons; genetics, over-all health = lack of underlying conditions, tend to survive in spite of the virus.
You don't think that's rather circular?
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:07 AM   #2930
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Oh for crap's sake. Covid is a specific communicable illness with specific causes that people can contract through no fault of their own as a result of the behavior of other people around them. If I can keep others healthy and they can keep me healthy by wearing a damn cloth mask, what does that have to do with anything else? What's the problem? There is no other place in the world where a basic public health measure is a subject of political controversy, and that's why 1,000 Americans are dying every day..
What you are proposing is to establish restrictions on an assumption that people have this disease unless they offer proof of NOT having it or if they are wearing a face mask... then they are good. Even though the wearing of a face mask has not proven to be 100% or even in the high double digit percentage effective. In short, you demand that people conform to something that never had a baseline established with the lead argument for doing that "something" is because it is better than nothing? Does that sum up your position?
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:14 AM   #2931
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Such as someone who thinks wearing a mask because it protects others is an overreach by the government? Sorry, you're living in a society. If you wish to be free of the government telling what you should do, find a nice unoccupied section of land in the Pacific Northwest, build a log cabin, heat it with wood you chop yourself, feed yourself on what you can grow, gather, and hunt, and tan the hides yourself for your clothing.
Your suggestion(s) should be aimed at you and others who are scared of Covid-19. You act as if a healthy person is a menace. I don't have Covid-19, therefore I don't need to have the restrictions. I don't care what you think as long as it does not infringe on my rights as I am not imposing sanctions on you.
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:15 AM   #2932
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You don't think that's rather circular?

It is!
If the virus kill them, "they have 'compromised immune systems." If it doesn't, they don't.
So these people die because of the defects, not because this is a virus that kills people.

'So he died of Covid-19? Well, I guess something must have been wrong with him ...'
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:18 AM   #2933
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The study was carried out in April and May in Denmark when almost nobody used face masks outside of hospital settings, and it did not study if face masks prevented or decreased transmission of the virus from infected mask wearers.
(The study wasn't blinded for pretty obvious reasons! )

The masks used appear to be quite good
https://www.incodirect.co.uk/product...with-ear-loop/

Quote:
Approved according to EN 14683:2015, Bacterial Filtration Efficiency (BFE: > 99%, ∆P < 3) Particle Filtration Efficiency (PFE: 99,9% @ 0,1 micron) Not tested for splash resistance or allergenic substances.

CE-label according to EU Directive for Medical equipment 93/42/EEC, Annex VII, class 1
Not great news for the protective effect for the wearer but the it's long been clear that masks are most effective at preventing new infections from an infected wearer. And those occur by both aerosols, close droplets, and fomites. All are reduced when the infected person wears a mask.
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:23 AM   #2934
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You don't think that's rather circular?
Somewhat like the responses I am getting..

What are your thoughts on co-morbidity and covid 19, and the possible need for more self restriction by those most vulnerable?
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:24 AM   #2935
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This, of course, is utter nonsense. I called this “logic” Trumpian earlier because it is.
Thanks.. We are overdue for a Trump reference..


Are you saying that the failure of the healthcare system and the political engine ( i.e. Trump ) is not responsible for the
extent of the pandemic?
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:24 AM   #2936
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The discussion is about the science surrounding Covid 19.

That includes information about why some people die from it and some don't.

So far, an import reason why many people didn't die from it is that they were never infected.
I think that is the most important fact about this disease.

It's extremely simple and 100 percent accurate: If you don't catch the virus, it doesn't kill you, whether you have comorbidities or not.
If you do catch it, however, it may kill you even if you are the most perfect specimen of all human beings, 25 years old, and built like a Greek god.
Except, of course, if it does kill you anyway, it's proof positive that you weren't perfect after all ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:25 AM   #2937
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You really don't understand the difference, do you? You think all viruses are the same? Viruses can cause anything from colds to flu to meningitis to ebola. Covid is much deadlier than flu, much more contagious, and, maybe most significant, can be spread by people who show no symptoms themselves. That's why we treat it differently from the flu.
Yes.

But you see, most people will only get mild symptoms and recover, so they can justify asserting that 'draconian' measures taken to prevent infection cause more harm than good. Or can they?

Covid 19 coronavirus: Why South Australia locked down - New terrifying virus strain revealed
Quote:
The strain of coronavirus wreaking havoc on South Australia has particular characteristics that are most concerning to authorities.

As the state announced it was going into a full lockdown for at least six days from midnight Wednesday in a bid to combat the latest Covid-19 wave, Chief Health Officer Professor Nicola Spurrier explained the reason for the tough move.

"It has a very, very short incubation period. That means when somebody gets exposed, it is taking 24 hours or even less for that person to become infectious to others and the other characteristic of the cases we have seen so far is they have had minimal symptoms and sometimes no symptoms but have been able to pass it to other people."

"We also know, because of that characteristic, that what we call a generation, is only about three days and a generation is when one case is passing it on to the next level, and then that (next) level, so if they pass it on to two people, they will pass it on to another lot of people, and that is your third generation," she said.

"At the moment in SA we have done contact tracing to the fourth generation but the fifth generation is out there in our community...

"We have no time to wait. If I thought about this all day and then told the police commissioner, the premier, tonight, he would already be 12 hours behind so we really need to act fast under this...

South Australian authorities have announced a "series of wide-ranging restrictions" to get on top of the Covid-19 outbreak.

A further eight days of other restrictions "which will not be as significant" will follow.

Premier Steven Marshall on Wednesday afternoon described it as the "circuit breaker" to "stay ahead" of the coronavirus.

"There is no second chance to stop a second wave,"
The shorter the incubation period, the more rapidly it can spread and the faster it can mutate. Shorter incubation also means it can mutate to an even more deadly form and still prosper.

We have been lucky so far. But the more this virus spreads and the more people become infected, the more mutations can occur. This virus is adapting faster than our inadequate response.

"First it came for the old, the weak, the comorbiditied, and I did not speak out -

Because I was young and healthy..."
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:33 AM   #2938
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No they don't.
Pick up a book, talk to a health care professional or/and use common sense. Refined sugar is not life-sustaining food, you have yet to provide meaningful proof of anything, so start with this... Post an article, paper or anything that touts "Refined sugar" as life-sustaining.

Quote:
Your attempt to equate life-sustaining food to a deadly virus is pathetic.
Your above claim regarding life-sustaining food defines this sentence.

Quote:
And 'GMOs', seriously? There is no evidence that the genetically modified foods produced so far are any less healthy than 'organic' products. In fact it's kind of silly because every GMO (or non-GMO) foodstuff is different. GMO is merely a method of producing different varieties.
Isn't it too early to fully understand the nuances of GMO's? That is your "out" when it come to Covid-19 but then again you must not read fluently as there many many studies conducted regarding, let's just pick one, "Roundup Ready Corn". Roundup is marketed as an Antibiotic it is also marketed as a Descaler. You don't want to be eating antibiotics (I hope you can agree with that) and you certainly do not want to ingest a product that removes scales from boilers and hulls of boats/ships. Having said that, please convince me that it is perfectly "ok" to have our corn seeds modified by Roundup.

Quote:
"Ah but", you may counter, "even the most 'healthy' foods damage organs!". Please don't try that shtick here - it won't work.
Preemptive presumption on your part... just focus on my queries I presented to you, that alone will occupy you.
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:37 AM   #2939
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
If you do catch it, however, it may kill you even if you are the most perfect specimen of all human beings, 25 years old, and built like a Greek god.
.
While we're picking nits, do you have an example of this?

What is your ( and others ) problem with discussing the implications of some being more vulnerable than others?

Are you content to go with " anyone who catches it could die " and leave it at that, even though it is obvious this is not true?

Or, are you just ignoring the elephant in the room?
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:50 AM   #2940
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Federal Law

Intra-state, there are state laws.

We try to encourage the person, but if not then they can be arrested in WA State if a public health officer order is ignored.
Great attempt at misdirection... You posted a Federal Law that allows the government to quarantine, prevent or isolate people ENTERING the USA. I have always agreed with that position. The CFR clearly states this is only for entry into the USA; it is up to the local states to determine what to do within the State's borders... again, I have stated this over and over.

By the way, Trump enacted this very same CFR and prevented Wuhan travelers from entering the USA in the very early stages of Covid-19 and it was Biden and the Democrats that said Trump was Xenophobic. If you are looking for blame...
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:53 AM   #2941
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You really need to stop.

Hospitals don't bill based on what is on a death certificate.
I never said they "bill"... what I said is that they get enumerated by the Federal Government if a patient dies WITH Covid-19. Do disagree with that?
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:55 AM   #2942
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Why are you, The Atheist, Ginger and Ramjets implying that this is my point?
Because you keep bringing it up without explaining why you think it's important in the context you put it. This is what people do when they want to imply things instead of making an actual argument.

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post

The discussion is about the science surrounding Covid 19.
This isn't what you are doing though. You are putting it in responses as if it's an argument for or against something, but you refuse to explain why it's relevant in that particular context.

If you won't explain the your arguments for yourself others people are perfectly entitled to infer what it is you are trying to say and you have zero basis for objecting.
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:00 AM   #2943
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post

What you haven't done is read what I shared.

Comorbidity and its Impact on Patients with COVID-19
Everyone knows that some people are more at risk, what we don't know is why you think it's relevant to the discussion currently taking place. Nonetheless you keep repeating the things everyone already know s and keep refusing to explain what your point is.
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:11 AM   #2944
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It is!

If the virus kill them, "they have 'compromised immune systems." If it doesn't, they don't.

So these people die because of the defects, not because this is a virus that kills people.



'So he died of Covid-19? Well, I guess something must have been wrong with him ...'
It is a pseudo-scientific version of "you must have done something to make God angry at you."
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:19 AM   #2945
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I am afraid that anti-maskers may start referring to this study.
Don't worry, they already have - I saw that posted elsewhere right before I came back in here.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The shorter the incubation period, the more rapidly it can spread and the faster it can mutate.
That goes with what we're finding here, too - very short incubation periods have been a feature of several of our recent cases.

The only upside is that it doesn't appear to be as contagious, because infected people have sat in planes and restaurants with others, but have only given it to very close contacts, except in one case and the details of that one are vague due to cultural differences.
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:23 AM   #2946
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Everyone knows that some people are more at risk, what we don't know is why you think it's relevant to the discussion currently taking place. Nonetheless you keep repeating the things everyone already know s and keep refusing to explain what your point is.
Now that we know it's not relevant, to you anyway, that settles it.


It's a good thing no one else is repeating things everyone knows..
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:26 AM   #2947
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
3. Wrong
First, you are referring to RRT-PCR not rRT-PCR as a diagnostic tool. Mullis (who invented this process and won the Nobel Prize for this discovery) patented it as a manufacturing process. It multiplies a specimen a number of times so it can be observed. Mullis warned the world NOT to use this a diagnostic tool (hence the RRT-PCR). RT-PCR is currently being used as diagnostic tool, a baseball bat could be used as a digging tool but would not be effective... just like this RT-PCR is NOT an effective diagnostic tool. Using it as a diagnostic tool is one of the major problems with this entire "positive" and "negative" categorization of people.
Quote:
4. It reverse transcribes the RNA into cDNA and that is amplified and detected
Enzymes are amplified NOT the RNA. When the DNA is manufactured it is then broken down to a single strand yet DNA probes are used with the single strand. A major problem is that the FDA says 100 bases are needed to make this work, unfortunately in the CDC rRT-PCR test kits for SARS-CoV-2 assay are only about 25 bases long.
Quote:
5. But there are calibrating standards for the assay
You need a "gold standard" in order to do that and that is NOT being conducted. Assays are all over the board which is another problem and the problem is compounding due to the number of "tests" being performed.
Quote:
6. Identifying subgenomic RNA will tell you it's replicating and likely real virus
Is this being conducted on every test? I can answer this... No because the RNA was converted into a cDNA.

What about the first two points?
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:34 AM   #2948
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
OK. Here:
Nothing posted




Quote:
I stand by the "No Flu Season" statement. Influenza has been occurring at rates well below Off Season rates during the Southern hemisphere's Flu Season. Further, Flu positivity rates have run 10X lower than what they normally run in the USA during it's Off Season. Flu just isn't a material factor in these deaths.
Well below does not equate into the lack of a Flu Season by anybody's definition. Your last sentence could make sense if you provide greater background.
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Old 18th November 2020, 11:40 AM   #2949
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to THE ATHEIST... I must have missed your reply, please post it again...


Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That is truly pathetic.

When the death total is 1000 a day, whether someone died on that exact day or not is irrelevant. The fact is thousands of people are dying from Covid every day.

Like all the other deniers who have participated in the thread, let time tell the story of what happened - you're not going to convince anyone here that you're right and the entire medical establishment of the world is wrong.

It's so obvious now that even denier Governors in US states have recognised action needs to be taken, so give yourself a break from the abject nonsense you're peddling.
I love how you categorically call people who disagree with you as "deniers". I am a "denier" if it means calling out the facts. Address the facts
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0.

FACTS:

1. Cases are recorded... not people. A single person can represent multiple cases.
2. People who die with Covid-19 are cataloged as dying from Covid-19.
3. The RT-PCR is a manufacturing process and not a diagnostic tool.
4. The RT-PCR detects enzymes that are associated with the Covid-19 virus but it does not detect the RNA.
5. There is no standardization in the Ct when utilizing the RT-PCR process.
6. The RT-PCR does not detect if the virus is infectious or not.
7. The RT-PCR cannot determine when the Covid-19 entered your system.

Provide a counter argument to the above facts, keep out the hyperbole and anecdotal stories.

Last edited by zooterkin; 19th November 2020 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 18th November 2020, 12:08 PM   #2950
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
1. Cases are recorded... not people. A single person can represent multiple cases.
2. People who die with Covid-19 are cataloged as dying from Covid-19.
3. The RT-PCR is a manufacturing process and not a diagnostic tool.
4. The RT-PCR detects enzymes that are associated with the Covid-19 virus but it does not detect the RNA.
5. There is no standardization in the Ct when utilizing the RT-PCR process.
6. The RT-PCR does not detect if the virus is infectious or not.
7. The RT-PCR cannot determine when the Covid-19 entered your system.

Provide a counter argument to the above facts, keep out the hyperbole and anecdotal stories.
Capsid, who is an expert in the field, has answered 3-7. If you can't grasp that, that's your problem.

1 - Some people have multiple tests. A percent? 2%? Big deal and completely irrelevant. Millions of people have had it.

2 - Some deaths may have been incorrectly recorded. Big deal. When the death total is approaching 1.5 million very rapidly, a few cases don't mean a great deal, and in light of facts that show excess deaths far greater than official Covid totals explain, it's a lot more likely that the death total is actually higher, not lower, as you're trying to claim.

3 - I will touch on this, because it's such complete nonsense. If you poked your head out from your bubble of misinformation for a moment, you'd look at countries where there are so few cases that each one is documented individually. Then you would see what a load of cobblers your claim is. Start with NZ: https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/...el-coronavirus

The PCR is a highly accurate diagnostic tool. This is why we have no community cases and USA has ~3,000,000.

And your #7 is hilarious. You're as bad as the election fraud people clutching at non-existent straws in an effort to prove an unknown point of no value.
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Old 18th November 2020, 12:14 PM   #2951
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I don't have Covid-19, therefore I don't need to have the restrictions.
You don’t know that. Furthermore, if you are enough of an ******* to violate covid restrictions just because you don’t think you are sick then you are probably a big enough a-hole to violate them even when you know you are sick.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I don't care what you think as long as it does not infringe on my rights as I am not imposing sanctions on you.
People violating these restrictions increases virus propagation and cause other people to die.

Endangering the lives of others has never been considered a right or a freedom In fact the responsibility to not do so have always been acknowledged as one of the responsibilities required to have freedoms in the first place. If you won't live up to the responsibilities you don't deserve the freedoms.
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Old 18th November 2020, 12:22 PM   #2952
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Now that we know it's not relevant, to you anyway, that settles it.
I didn't bring it up. You brought it up and I challenged you to explain why it's relevant and you refused to do so.

Under the circumstances all we can do is attempt to infer what you are trying to say or assume you are spouting irrelevant nonsense so stop whining about the people doing so. Take responsibility for your posts and explain what you are trying to say and maybe you will get a different response.
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Old 18th November 2020, 12:25 PM   #2953
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FWIW, you never addressed my original comments in this discussion, you just jumped on the " ....some lives are worth more than others " strawman bandwagon...

What you infer from the research I referenced is up to you, or not, if you can't grasp it.
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Old 18th November 2020, 12:31 PM   #2954
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
First, you are referring to RRT-PCR not rRT-PCR as a diagnostic tool.
Could you explain the difference? This terminology is not what is used currently. https://www.enzolifesciences.com/sci...-and-rt-qpcr?/

Quote:
Mullis (who invented this process and won the Nobel Prize for this discovery) patented it as a manufacturing process. It multiplies a specimen a number of times so it can be observed. Mullis warned the world NOT to use this a diagnostic tool (hence the RRT-PCR). RT-PCR is currently being used as diagnostic tool, a baseball bat could be used as a digging tool but would not be effective... just like this RT-PCR is NOT an effective diagnostic tool. Using it as a diagnostic tool is one of the major problems with this entire "positive" and "negative" categorization of people.
The assay has moved on a lot since 1985, we have digital PCR now and it is the go-to tool for diagnostic assays (HCV, HPV, HIV etc).
Quote:
Enzymes are amplified NOT the RNA. When the DNA is manufactured it is then broken down to a single strand yet DNA probes are used with the single strand. A major problem is that the FDA says 100 bases are needed to make this work, unfortunately in the CDC rRT-PCR test kits for SARS-CoV-2 assay are only about 25 bases long.
The enzyme used is DNA polymerase which is extends the DNA sequence, the resulting double-strand is then separated at high temperature and the process of DNA amplification repeats over and over to result in a lot of DNA that can then be detected. What's your source?
Quote:
You need a "gold standard" in order to do that and that is NOT being conducted. Assays are all over the board which is another problem and the problem is compounding due to the number of "tests" being performed.
Is this being conducted on every test? I can answer this... No because the RNA was converted into a cDNA.
Using Ct values is a problem because the assays perform differently. Calibrating standards solve this issue. The cDNA is the copy of the RNA. I don't follow your logic.

Quote:
What about the first two points?
I have no comment on those, it's not my area.
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Old 18th November 2020, 12:51 PM   #2955
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
FWIW, you never addressed my original comments in this discussion, you just jumped on the " ....some lives are worth more than others " strawman bandwagon...

What you infer from the research I referenced is up to you, or not, if you can't grasp it.
I addressed the part where I had issues/questions:

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Except when it's not.

The overwhelming majority of covid deaths occur with underlying health issues such as heart disease, obesity and type 2 diabetes; all nutritionally based health issues.

Take these numbers out of the mix and the death rate drops dramatically.
Are you implying these people have less value or that their deaths don't matter as much?
You provided no explanation of why we should “take the people with underlying health issues out of the mix", so I asked you if you were trying to imply that it wasn’t as important if these people died. You have had every opportunity to provide an alterative explanation of why we should ignore these deaths but you refuse to do so.
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Old 18th November 2020, 01:03 PM   #2956
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
While we're picking nits, do you have an example of this?

I'm afraid I'm fresh out of 25-year-olds, so you'll have to make do with somebody a little older:
Fitness influencer who ‘thought COVID didn’t exist’ shares final message on Instagram before dying (DailyDot, Oct. 19, 2020)

I would put his comorbidity down to zealous corona denialism more than a compromised immune system, but I am actually more concerned about all the innocent people whom he may have infected due to his reckless stupidity.
But I have a couple more for you:
SARS-CoV-2–Associated Deaths Among Persons Aged <21 Years — United States, February 12–July 31, 2020 (CDC, Sep. 18, 2020)
Young People Are at Risk of Severe Covid-19 illness (NBC News, Sep. 28, 2020)

What you don't seem to understand is that your immune system doesn't have to be particularly compromised to die from this or any other disease. If your immune system is compromised (by old age, for instance), you are much more likely to get seriously ill or even die, obviously, but it is also possible that your immune system just didn't respond well to this one particular virus, which then happens to 'compromise' it.

Quote:
What is your ( and others ) problem with discussing the implications of some being more vulnerable than others?

There is nothing at all to discuss! Some people are more vulnerable than others. Nobody has denied the fact!

Quote:
Are you content to go with " anyone who catches it could die " and leave it at that, even though it is obvious this is not true?

I'm sorry, but it is obviously true. Anyone who catches it can die. It is obvious that some segments of the population are much more likely to die than others, so if you infect 1,000 tweens, fewer are likely to die than if you infect 1,000 septuagenarians, but you don't really know in advance who it's going to be because " anyone who catches it could die "
Pick a straw, tweenie! If you are 83, pick 500 straws! (Could be more, could be less. I don't know the exact odds.*)
Wait, I just found this: Coronavirus: Case fatality rate by age

Quote:
Or, are you just ignoring the elephant in the room?

I've been attacking the elephant head on from the very beginning, and I'm still doing it.


*The very best chance of not dying from Covid-19 is still to avoid picking the straws! By eliminating the straws, you reduce your risk of dying from whatever to zero, no matter how old you are or how compromised your immune system is for whatever reason!
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Old 18th November 2020, 01:11 PM   #2957
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
....
I don't have Covid-19, therefore I don't need to have the restrictions.
....
How do you know that? The President and everyone around him is tested frequently -- every day, by some accounts -- and yet he and several of his closest associates contracted covid. A key fact about this particular virus, unlike most, is that people who are experiencing no symptoms can still spread it to others, particularly the most vulnerable. That's the basis for the restrictions: you can make other people sick, even kill them, without knowing it.

If rapid testing was widely available, the situation would be different: People could be tested on the spot before entering public places. That is a major failure of the response to this crisis. But that's where we are.
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Old 18th November 2020, 01:15 PM   #2958
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
FWIW, you never addressed my original comments in this discussion, you just jumped on the " ....some lives are worth more than others " strawman bandwagon...
....
What is your actual point? If people get sick and die of covid who would not have died from other causes, then they died of covid. High blood pressure, obesity, diabetes etc. are treatable chronic illnesses. People don't die of them in a matter of days. Why do you think this matters?

Last edited by Bob001; 18th November 2020 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 18th November 2020, 01:21 PM   #2959
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It means precisely that, if they would have lived in the absence of the other conditions, and the statistics imply that they would have..

Comorbidity and its Impact on Patients with COVID-19

Conclusion: ( Excerpt)

It represents a failure of the healthcare system in general ( Not healthcare workers, before the sanctimonious jump on me for implying such..) and the political engine that drives it, not just for covid 19, but for the health and well being of everyone in general.
So the diabetic who dies of COVID really died of diabetes?

The obese person who died of COVID really died of obesity?



You have a poor understanding of comorbidities.

No one is padding death certificates to make COVID look worse or to get more money from Medicare. It a Trump et al ruse, an excuse, looks good on paper but not in real life.
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Old 18th November 2020, 01:21 PM   #2960
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Question: Assume that you get the first FDA-approved vaccine available to you. If another vaccine is released later that may be better for some reason, is there any medical reason why you can't get the second one?
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