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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:43 PM   #801
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There were ten. 3 were invalidated under state level laws, the others stood.
It's worth mentioning that the faithless electors were all "protest votes". None of them made any difference to the electoral outcome. And not a single one of those votes went to Clinton.

This is despite a considerable effort on the part of Democrat-aligned citizens to try to convince their electors pledged to Trump to change their vote to Clinton and overturn the outcome of the election.

The Way Out of Trumpland: Hail Mary Pass to Save the Nation.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:45 PM   #802
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
He is attempting to wrest power. Brazenly so. I realize we're all inured, but sometimes it's important to take a step back and get some perspective. The President of the United States is attempting to overturn a free and fair election. And the Republican party is complicit.

That's what I call real **** and then some.
I'm afraid you're banging you head against a wall of stupid. The fact that you're 100% correct won't alter that.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:48 PM   #803
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's worth mentioning that the faithless electors were all "protest votes". None of them made any difference to the electoral outcome. And not a single one of those votes went to Clinton.

This is despite a considerable effort on the part of Democrat-aligned citizens to try to convince their electors pledged to Trump to change their vote to Clinton and overturn the outcome of the election.
I don't think there was that much effort. This has been suggested many times. But it's a fools errand as electors are long time party faithful. I do think the reasoning that anyone reccomended that electors flip in 2016 was because Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million votes.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:49 PM   #804
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Can the Overton Window be shifted back? I'd think so. I'd hope so. But it's sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle.
I kind of think our Overton Window has become a pair of sidelights around a very big, heavily barred door.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:50 PM   #805
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
In any case, he'll be banging the rigged elections, millions of illegal votes drum to the day he dies.
Yes. Yes he will. So what?
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:51 PM   #806
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.
It always has been.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:57 PM   #807
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
More accurate analogy: he stands on fifth Avenue pointing finger guns and saying "Pew Pew". Still swooning, are you?
What if it is a real gun and he is just out of ammunition?

It should still be taken seriously enough even if he is putting a fake bomb under the White House.

You don’t **** around with this kind of thing.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 03:58 PM   #808
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
You are really in denial, aren't you. Or you can't see past your nose.

Let me say, or rather ask, it in simple words.

This is coup attempt (level of competency does not matter). Yes or no?

Even unsuccessful coup will make next time way, way easier. Yes or no?
The question is pedantic and has no deeper meaning. Thermal agrees.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I of course agree that it is ****** up five ways from Sunday. What I disagree with is that is is anything remotely like a coup.

Every definition of a coup has something like "wresting control" or "seizing power" , bloody or not. In short, you have to have some teeth in there somewhere, be it guns or popular support or something, anything, to make it happen. That's why I think it falls far short of anything coup-ish. Its yapping, being met with a flat "nope" in four-part harmony with feeling.

... Shouldn't we be focusing on the things that might be, you know, real?
Yes we should be focusing on the risks we still face.

Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Not quite comparable there, Icerat willingly giving you the forum because you asked wouldn't violate norms, ethics or principles of forum ownership.

If you began insisting daily that you were the rightful owner of the forum and that Icerat had stolen it from you and started having your lawyers calling the Forum's webhost demanding they turn it over to you, we'd be getting a little warmer.

The issue with a coup isn't just "Trying to get in power" but trying to do so in a way that subverts the established lawful and ethical grounding of power.

But I think there's a further misunderstanding here in where the danger lies.

I feel like you and likely SG seem to be thinking "There is no way that between the courts, appeals to stop certification of results and any faithless electors or other comparable legal shenanigans that 37 electoral college votes are changed from the current predictions to cast for Trump instead of Biden"

And on that point, I think most people in this thread are in agreement.The fact that the legal appeal won't work isn't the point.
This is an important point. There is no need to debate this, it is a distraction from the issues at hand.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
All you argue is that unsuccessful murder attempt is no big deal. Others already addressed your BS claim that current ongoing coup (however inept and incompetent), do not have "teeth in there somewhere". ...
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
so your stances is that Trump can absolutely try to shoot someone on 5th Avenue if he is just a bad enough shot.

Got it.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
More accurate analogy: he stands on fifth Avenue pointing finger guns and saying "Pew Pew". Still swooning, are you?


My neighbor wrote this and it seems appropriate here as well as funny:

I have a case here....hear me out:

I’m suing Powerball. They stole my lottery jackpot because I wasn’t allowed to clearly see the ping pong balls as they were selected. Plus, there were fraudulent ping pong balls in the machine. I know this because the numbers drawn were not on my ticket. What’s especially suspicious is that I bought my ticket on a Saturday, yet the drawing did not take place until Tuesday! Why the delay? Obviously, it was so they had more time to rig the drawing.

And Rudy Giuliani says he'll represent me for $25,000 a day. I'm going to be a winner.


I said pages ago that we should stop worrying about Trump refusing to leave office because he will be out on Jan 20 regardless of all his shenanigans.

And I think what I said has borne out. He's out of legal options except maybe a few more delays. This is not going to the SCOTUS or if it does it will be to stop the appeals. There is nothing here for the SCOTUS to work with other than destroying democracy themselves.

As for state legislatures flipping their states, that was never more than a hypothetical pipe dream Trump fantasized about. I honestly don't know why anyone here seriously worried it was even remotely possible.



So where does that leave us? Trump might, as an act of revenge, keep Biden locked out until Jan 20th. Or the pressure might be too great for him and he'll give up sooner. Maybe he'll go golfing or slink off to Mar-a-Lago.

There is little doubt he will be egging on violence for many months to come. That is a worry.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:02 PM   #809
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yep. Which is why I suggest that people calm down, let go of the outrage and the near panic. Maybe have a nice adult beverage. Maybe a bit of pie.
Why not all three?
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:04 PM   #810
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
GSA is doing the transition.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:04 PM   #811
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
More accurate analogy: he stands on fifth Avenue pointing finger guns and saying "Pew Pew". Still swooning, are you?
More accurate analogy: Bluto walks up and down fifth Ave swinging a baseball bat at bystanders, but missing. A bunch of idiots on the sidelines laugh.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:07 PM   #812
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
He is attempting to wrest power. Brazenly so. I realize we're all inured, but sometimes it's important to take a step back and get some perspective. The President of the United States is attempting to overturn a free and fair election. And the Republican party is complicit.

That's what I call real **** and then some.
He's attempting to wrest power in almost the exact way that a toddler attempts to arrest power when it decides to hold its breath until it gets its way. The people panicking about a coup are essentially 1) petrified with worry that the kid will actually get its way by holding its breath and 2) yelling at the parents because they looked at the kid and said "okay, you go ahead and hold your breath for as long as you can, I know, it's so unfair!" and 3) berating everyone in the kid's family including distant cousins for not beating the kid black and blue in response to it holding its breath.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:08 PM   #813
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My avatar bet stands. Takers? Or do your own theatrics not convince you enough for even a lowly avatar bet?
What are the terms of the bet?
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:08 PM   #814
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I of course agree that it is ****** up five ways from Sunday. What I disagree with is that is is anything remotely like a coup.

Every definition of a coup has something like "wresting control" or "seizing power" , bloody or not. In short, you have to have some teeth in there somewhere, be it guns or popular support or something, anything, to make it happen. That's why I think it falls far short of anything coup-ish. Its yapping, being met with a flat "nope" in four-part harmony with feeling.

Getting wound up about impotent bleating is something that seems beneath skeptics. I kind of like being on the side that doesn't get carried away in theatrical fantasy. Shouldn't we be focusing on the things that might be, you know, real?
Ayup
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:09 PM   #815
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think there was that much effort. This has been suggested many times. But it's a fools errand as electors are long time party faithful. I do think the reasoning that anyone reccomended that electors flip in 2016 was because Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million votes.
There were a lot of suggestions that electors ought to flip in 2000 because Gore won the popular vote. In that election, only two (or maybe 3?) would have had to flip to change the outcome. So, of course, no one flipped. Faithless electors these days are usually calling attention to the fact that one person could change an election, which is nuts. They certainly aren't trying to actually change the election outcome.

It will be interesting to see if any flip this time around. In my fantasy world, a handful of electors from states which allow faithless electors are so disgusted with Trump's post-election antics that they take it out on him by voting for some other Republican they admire. But I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:12 PM   #816
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Safe to say the only way Trump pulls off a coup at this point is if he plays "Tropico" on his computer and I bet he probably sucks at that as well.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:15 PM   #817
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
He's attempting to wrest power in almost the exact way that a toddler attempts to arrest power when it decides to hold its breath until it gets its way. The people panicking about a coup are essentially 1) petrified with worry that the kid will actually get its way by holding its breath and 2) yelling at the parents because they looked at the kid and said "okay, you go ahead and hold your breath for as long as you can, I know, it's so unfair!" and 3) berating everyone in the kid's family including distant cousins for not beating the kid black and blue in response to it holding its breath.
There are a couple of differences, though. Most importantly, Trump is not some random toddler. He's President of the United States. That means he is an embarrassment, but also that he can wield real power while holding his breath. Second, there are a bunch of other adults standing around encouraging him to keep holding his breath.

The possibility that he will actually hold onto power through his coup-like actions is not worth worrying about. The fact that there are so many people, some of whom are also political leaders with real power, who refuse to put him down makes me wonder what will happen in the future, when the next would-be dictator, and I do think it's fair to call Trump a would be dictator, comes along, but isn't quite as comical.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:18 PM   #818
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Nah, I'd be just as apathetic as I currently am. The only difference is that I'd be posting for all of the Republicans who were up in arms about the coming of the antichrist to stop listening to entertainment and thinking it was news, and to stop exaggerating every single thing because the color of the man's suit does not matter at all.
Yes, you would.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:19 PM   #819
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's what concerns me. Trump, as a spoiled silver spoon draft dodging deadbeat should have been downright revolting to his base. And to the higher ups in the party, his stupidity coupled with arrogance should have had them pushing him away, too. Im concerned that the next one will have some grit, wit, and charm, but similar principles. We could be in real trouble.

Back on the OP, I guess we should be more troubled that Congress is not charging the Pres with treason as we speak. Its not Trump's coup we should worry about; it's that Congress is ignoring it. Unless maybe...just maybe...they know damn right well it's nothing.
I don't think he's actually done anything illegal or treasonous (by the actual legal definition of treason rather than the hyperbolic colloquial version) yet.

Challenging the election outcome isn't illegal. Even arguing that certain ballots should be considered invalid of [insert dumb reason] isn't illegal. Claiming suspected fraud isn't illegal. Even trying to convince electors to be faithless isn't illegal.

Poor taste, and clearly the temper tantrum of a child, but not, I think illegal.

That said, it's possible he's done something more than that, and I'm just unaware of it because I haven't got the stomach for hanging on the spectacle-that-is-news non-stop.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:21 PM   #820
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You guys know damn right well it's a steaming pile and nothing at all will come of it. So back to swooning for...whatever reasons you swoon
I'm beginning to think there's some sort of "swooning addiction" at play. So many people have spent the past four years being in a state of borderline fight-or-flight, I'm not sure their amygdala knows how to interface with their frontal lobes without that wash of adrenaline.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:24 PM   #821
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Trump has begun to relent as I type.

Per NPR, not seeing it yet online.

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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:25 PM   #822
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Maybe some individuals are too addicted to being above it all hipsters that they forgot it’s ok to care about stuff
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:33 PM   #823
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump has begun to relent as I type.
As practically everyone here said he would. He's instructed the GSA to allow Biden access.

Out of the goodness of his heart, according to him.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:34 PM   #824
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
More accurate analogy: Bluto walks up and down fifth Ave swinging a baseball bat at bystanders, but missing. A bunch of idiots on the sidelines laugh.
Make it a Nerf bat and you might have an analogy there.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:37 PM   #825
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Make it a Nerf bat and you might have an analogy there.
A frozen nerf bat.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:52 PM   #826
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think there was that much effort. This has been suggested many times. But it's a fools errand as electors are long time party faithful. I do think the reasoning that anyone reccomended that electors flip in 2016 was because Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million votes.
The reasons provided by the faithless electors were all "Trump is bad and we don't want him". Some non-elector people made a statement about the disparity between the popular vote and the electoral count... but most of the people writing articles and trying to rile people up were trying to overrule Trump's win, because they didn't like Trump.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:53 PM   #827
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What if it is a real gun and he is just out of ammunition?

It should still be taken seriously enough even if he is putting a fake bomb under the White House.

You don’t **** around with this kind of thing.
That's how little kids get shot by cops though. That whole mistaking a toy for a real gun thing.

It's not a real gun. It really, really isn't.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:55 PM   #828
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Why not all three?
That's my preference. But apparently some people just don't like pie. It's shocking, I know.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 05:01 PM   #829
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Mod WarningDial down the personalisation and incivility, please.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 23rd November 2020, 05:01 PM   #830
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Old 23rd November 2020, 05:10 PM   #831
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump has begun to relent as I type.

Per NPR, not seeing it yet online.
Good. Finally.

His Tweet:

Quote:
I want to thank Emily Murphy at GSA for her steadfast dedication and loyalty to our Country. She has been harassed, threatened, and abused – and I do not want to see this happen to her, her family, or employees of GSA. Our case STRONGLY continues, we will keep up the good...

...fight, and I believe we will prevail! Nevertheless, in the best interest of our Country, I am recommending that Emily and her team do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols, and have told my team to do the same.
It's like he is just copying that comedian who impersonates him. The one who does it well, anyway.

Quote:
Trump tweeted Monday that he's recommending the General Services Administration and others in his administration begin "initial protocols."
NPR

Emily Murphy says she wasn't pressured by anyone including the White House. Trump says he instructed her because she was being pressured by Democrats or something.

It's still a rolling **** show and I think it remains to be seen how long he is being even minimally cooperative before he has his next dose of roids.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 05:41 PM   #832
cosmicaug
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump has begun to relent as I type.

Per NPR, not seeing it yet online.
More information on this?

All I've seen is the tweet from whatever staffer runs the POTUS Twitter account when they need something that seems just a tiny bit like it has been written by a normal human. This was possibly written as a response to the GSA relenting.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 05:43 PM   #833
thaiboxerken
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LOL. Trump wants to take credit for the GSA finally doing her job after she decides to do her job.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:10 PM   #834
cosmicaug
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
LOL. Trump wants to take credit for the GSA finally doing her job after she decides to do her job.
Her statement amounts to the clown show being so lacking in credibility that she finally figured out Trump wasn't getting anywhere (even as she acknowledges it was not her job in the first place to do figure out if Trump was getting anywhere —so why didn't she do it earlier).
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:30 PM   #835
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Would Hitler give up easily or would he try a coup?

Is Trump Hitler?

Ergo, Trump is trying a coup. Flawless logic.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:32 PM   #836
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You still have it dead backwards. Our Democracy can easily withstand this impotent clown show. If you are paying attention, we are handling it quite nicely. Even the SCOTUS, with three conservative justices freshly appointed by Trump, is refusing to side with him. Does this mean nothing to you? Nothing at all about our system is weakened by watching him try and dismally fail. That would actually be discouraging to an actual wannabe coup. We don't even give it the time of day.

Do tell: what is the disaster? A blowhard tries and abjectly fails. His own party and SCOTUS watch him fail and do nothing. Congress does not even dignify this with a charge of treason. Seems to me we are showing our resiliency.

Eta: avatar bet. You're right, no one actually thinks it will be successful. You guys know damn right well it's a steaming pile and nothing at all will come of it. So back to swooning for...whatever reasons you swoon
Suppose it came down to only one contested state? Like Florida in 2000?

Still think the US form of 'democracy' would have held?

We're where we are now only because a not particilarly large number of Patriots held sway against a nihilistic horde of asshats who want the country to burn.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:37 PM   #837
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Would Hitler give up easily or would he try a coup?

Is Trump Hitler?

Ergo, Trump is trying a coup. Flawless logic.
I'm asking you, Brainster, the singular actual human being behind this account, what do you intend to communicate with that post?

A lot of virtual ink has been spilled in this thread (A LOT) with people defining, defending and reasoning over why they do or do not believe that what Trump is doing is a coup.

None of it was or reduces to anything like what you have chosen to type here.

So, seriously and honestly, what reason do you have for typing it?
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:46 PM   #838
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Would Hitler give up easily or would he try a coup?

Is Trump Hitler?

Ergo, Trump is trying a coup. Flawless logic.
Hitler attempted a coup, Was convicted of it and served a prison sentence for it. He was also more than 40 years younger than Trump when he attempted it.

Trump has absolutely been attempting a coup. It's just been a pathetic attempt.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:54 PM   #839
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Her statement amounts to the clown show being so lacking in credibility that she finally figured out Trump wasn't getting anywhere (even as she acknowledges it was not her job in the first place to do figure out if Trump was getting anywhere —so why didn't she do it earlier).
As I noted, she was supposed to start the process when it was "apparent," and not to wait until it was "completely obvious to everyone but the braindead morons"
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:54 PM   #840
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm beginning to think there's some sort of "swooning addiction" at play. So many people have spent the past four years being in a state of borderline fight-or-flight, I'm not sure their amygdala knows how to interface with their frontal lobes without that wash of adrenaline.
To me, and I suspect many others, the immediate concern here is not whether Drumpf gets his way this time. Rather, it's the eroding of norms that could well make it more possible for the next scumbag to succeed.

History shows us numerous cases where it was discovered too late what horror derives from not seeing and suppressing the looming danger in time. Drumpf is frighteningly dangerous because of what he's accelerating. To blithely and smugly sit back and foolishly perceive the battle as won now is to be a right fool. It CAN happen in the US and A. It nearly did, but for the annoying inconvenience of an almost pitiful few states putting the kibosh on Drumpf's plans.
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