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Merged Criminal Charges Against Trump/Trump indicted

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Stacyhs said:
Why wouldn't he? He's done everything else Trump's demanded of him.
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I don't recall Pence being involved in any of the corrupt schemes the Trump crime family has been pushing over the years. I don't know why he'd get involved now.
 
dirtywick said:
I don't recall Pence being involved in any of the corrupt schemes the Trump crime family has been pushing over the years. I don't know why he'd get involved now.
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That wouldn't be 'corrupt', just underhanded. And, as far as I know, perfectly legal.
 
Stacyhs said:
That wouldn't be 'corrupt', just underhanded. And, as far as I know, perfectly legal.
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Oh, it's absolutely corrupt. Legality doesn't appear to have much meaning when discussing the presidency.

I don't like Pence at all, but to his credit I don't think Pence has been involved in anything of that nature to date. Risking his political career and engaging in dubious legal activity purely for the benefit of DJT is something a true believer would do, and I don't believe that's Mike Pence.
 
dirtywick said:
Oh, it's absolutely corrupt. Legality doesn't appear to have much meaning when discussing the presidency.

I don't like Pence at all, but to his credit I don't think Pence has been involved in anything of that nature to date. Risking his political career and engaging in dubious legal activity purely for the benefit of DJT is something a true believer would do, and I don't believe that's Mike Pence.
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How is it corrupt or dubious legal activity? Explain. Trump decides to have elective surgery and undergoes anesthesia. Signs the letter handing Pence his POTUS powers. Pence pardons him. Trump then regains consciousness and retakes his powers. You may not believe that's Mike Pence but I've seen nothing of him that makes me think it's not.
 
dirtywick said:
I don't like Pence at all, but to his credit I don't think Pence has been involved in anything of that nature to date. Risking his political career and engaging in dubious legal activity purely for the benefit of DJT is something a true believer would do, and I don't believe that's Mike Pence.
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Pence was made VP thanks in part to Russian interference. Pence stood idly by when Trump tried to blackmail Ukraine to try to fabricate a Biden scandal. He happily voted to confirm DeVos to the cabinet. And while Trump is busy rage-tweeting all sorts of conspiracy nonsense, Pence has not publically told his boss to stop. In other words, nothing in his recent political history shows any sort of personal integrity.

As for his 'political career'... Given his past association with trump and his background as a religious nut, it is doubtful he would ever be considered a "moderate". So if he ever decides to hold office again his only option is to appeal to the MAGAchuds. And those people would likely support him pardoning trump if he was put in that position.

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CORed said:
As for GW Bush, I agree with you on the torture. As for getting into the Iran [Iraq] war, I was never certain whether it was a case of lying or a case of error and self delusion. I suspect that, to a large degree, he cherry-picked himmself into believing his own ********.
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Are you a Republican? Did you not pay attention at the time to volume of evidence it was a purposeful deceit on the American people?

If you answer yes to either of those I can understand why you remain unsure. If you answer no to both of those questions and if you want to be certain, go dig up some of the old threads where we discussed this ad nauseum and re-read them.
 
acbytesla said:
No, I don't think so. I suppose he might pardon himself, but that is legally questionable. Biden is not going to pardon him and I doubt if he resigned Pence would either.
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I think at this point, resigning so Pence can pardon him will grate on his narcissism. He already believes he can pardon himself and he will try.

The best argument against his ability to do this is the fact it would mean all POTUSes have a license to assassinate their competitors and pardon themselves after.

But given what we've seen for 4 years, his ego won't let him resign. His belief that he can pardon himself will guide his actions. It might make for an interesting outcome that he remains open to all those civil and criminal charges.


I see eerok agrees.
 
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acbytesla said:
I don't think that dog will hunt.

Deutsche Bank while certainly based in Germany has offices and branches in the United States. These were loans for an American business that involved American properties. Seems a stretch to say that loans that they provided were somehow exempt from US laws.
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Makes sense.
 
dudalb said:
I now think "Treason" should be amnng the charges.
Donald Trump" Russian asset.
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Don't forget, trying to nullify the US election. On the one hand, some of what he did is seen as legit. But he is crossing lines now and he has 31 days 2 hours to go.
 
[OT]Reminds me of a minor league trump I worked for in New York many years ago. Same personality. Like trump, his foundation was the business he inherited from his father. Then he started various businesses, all of which always failed. Like donnie, anyone who criticized anything he did was dismissed as 'a loser.' Despite all the losses he kept it going by always opening a new business. Fresh funding. For a while he was very successful. Millions in 'income,' summer home in the Hamptons, his own plane, numerous girl friends. Then time ran out.

He wound up divorced and penniless, forced to work in a self-service gas station. One summer night he drove his beatup old car at full speed into a lake. When the cops and firefighters finally managed to get his lifeless body out of the car they found he had wrapped himself in a huge American flag. [/OT]

Ya never know...
 
Segnosaur said:
Pence was made VP thanks in part to Russian interference. Pence stood idly by when Trump tried to blackmail Ukraine to try to fabricate a Biden scandal. He happily voted to confirm DeVos to the cabinet. And while Trump is busy rage-tweeting all sorts of conspiracy nonsense, Pence has not publically told his boss to stop. In other words, nothing in his recent political history shows any sort of personal integrity.

As for his 'political career'... Given his past association with trump and his background as a religious nut, it is doubtful he would ever be considered a "moderate". So if he ever decides to hold office again his only option is to appeal to the MAGAchuds. And those people would likely support him pardoning trump if he was put in that position.

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He did all that. But it’s a big leap from passively benefiting to actively participating
 
Pence was made VP thanks in part to Russian interference. Pence stood idly by when Trump tried to blackmail Ukraine to try to fabricate a Biden scandal. He happily voted to confirm DeVos to the cabinet. And while Trump is busy rage-tweeting all sorts of conspiracy nonsense, Pence has not publically told his boss to stop. In other words, nothing in his recent political history shows any sort of personal integrity.

As for his 'political career'... Given his past association with trump and his background as a religious nut, it is doubtful he would ever be considered a "moderate". So if he ever decides to hold office again his only option is to appeal to the MAGAchuds. And those people would likely support him pardoning trump if he was put in that position.
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He did all that. But it’s a big leap from passively benefiting to actively participating
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Not as big of a leap as you might think.


He had to actively vote to confirm DeVos.



And while I made it sound like Pence was a bystander in the ukraine scandal, there is the possibility that he was an active participant. And at the very least, he certainly attempted to defend the president afterwards (attacking the impeachment).



In my opinion, if you had knowledge of criminal activity (as Pence should have over Ukraine), do nothing to stop it, then when someone DOES try to intervene you attack them, then you are participating in the crime.



From:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-mike-pence-know-ukraine-concerns/4307439002/
House Democrats concluded in their impeachment report released Dec. 3 that Pence and other senior officials “were either knowledgeable of or active participants in an effort to extract from a foreign nation the personal political benefits sought by the president."
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Don't forget, trying to nullify the US election. On the one hand, some of what he did is seen as legit. But he is crossing lines now and he has 31 days 2 hours to go.
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I'm not sure that filing lawsuits, no matter how frivolous, to overturn the election qualifies as treason. However, if he does any of the more crazy stuff, i.e. delcaring martial law, seizing voting machines etc. that's being bandied about now, then absolutely he should be charged with treason. OTOH, the attorneys who have been filing these suits should be sanctioned at minimum, and probably disbarred.
 
Someone said Donald Trump and Melania Trump illegally voted in Palm Beach, Florida
because he doesn't have residence in the Mar-a-Lago Club due to a contractual agreement.
Surely that's not true.
 
Solitaire said:
Someone said Donald Trump and Melania Trump illegally voted in Palm Beach, Florida
because he doesn't have residence in the Mar-a-Lago Club due to a contractual agreement.
Surely that's not true.
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I certainly remember reading about that at the time.
 
Stacyhs said:
Why wouldn't he? He's done everything else Trump's demanded of him.
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There was an exception.
When Pence was running the daily COVID-briefing phone calls to the governors, Trump specifically told him to exclude Washington and Michigan because the governors were not showing him enough respect. Pence ignored the order.

Of course, he still earns the title of raging sycophant enabling and excusing a destructive and dysfunctional president.
 
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How can Pence and the cabinet justify not using the 25th amendment to remove Trump from the White House after yesterday's events?

I'm also wondering if they can be charged with sedition for failure to do so.
 
Kaylee said:
How can Pence and the cabinet justify not using the 25th amendment to remove Trump from the White House after yesterday's events?

I'm also wondering if they can be charged with sedition for failure to do so.
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Because this isn't incapacity to perform the duties of president but falls under the whole high crimes and misdemeanors and so should be another round of impeachment not the 25th amendment?
 
They should 25th his ass and then impeach. Yesterday was, in the most charitable interpretation, a total abdication of duty and inexcusably poor judgment.
 
dirtywick said:
They should 25th his ass and then impeach. Yesterday was, in the most charitable interpretation, a total abdication of duty and inexcusably poor judgment.
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Pelosi just announced that if the 25th amendment isn't used he will be impeached.
 
Trebuchet said:
Good luck with that.
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We'd need about GOP 20 senators to go along with it, which seems unlikely but perhaps not impossible.

I can't imagine they'll say they were wrong about Trump, so I'm watching to see if there's talk about how he's changed over the last few months so they can no longer support him. It's crap, of course, but it will give them some cover.
 
acbytesla said:
They can impeach him, again. But then we're back to the US Senate for a trial.
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Yeah but this time they don't have months to muddy the waters and the issue at hand is far simpler than the Russia investigation. If they do once again shoot it down well then no one can be in doubt as to where they really stand.
 
Garrison said:
Yeah but this time they don't have months to muddy the waters and the issue at hand is far simpler than the Russia investigation. If they do once again shoot it down well then no one can be in doubt as to where they really stand.
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Minor point: Trump's impeachment was over the Ukraine phone call/scandal.

Which says a lot about Trump... he's been involved in so many scandals that it is hard to remember which ones are which.
 
25th is about the president being unable to discharge his powers and duties. Trump's sworn duty is to protect the US constitution. He not only failed to do that yesterday, he actively went against it. So the 25th applies.
 
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