The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 3 - Page 4

JoeMorgue · 20th December 2020, 10:51 AM

Concern Among Muslims Over Halal Status of COVID-19 Vaccine

Quote:

As companies race to develop a COVID-19 vaccine and countries scramble to secure doses, questions about the use of pork products — banned by some religious groups — has raised concerns about the possibility of disrupted immunization campaigns.

Link: https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c

If you don't like it, die angry about it. I'm sorry the invisible man in the sky doesn't like one of the ingredients used in the life-saving drug that scientists worked their asses off to develop in order to stop the global pandemic.

Take it up with God.

The Great Zaganza · 20th December 2020, 10:56 AM

Sounds like the Russian Disinfo on HIV in Africa all other again ...

Roger Ramjets · 20th December 2020, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

If you don't like it, die angry about it. I'm sorry the invisible man in the sky doesn't like one of the ingredients used in the life-saving drug that scientists worked their asses off to develop in order to stop the global pandemic.

Take it up with God.

Quote:

“Our studies have found that some Muslims in Indonesia feel uncomfortable with accepting vaccinations containing these ingredients,” even when the Muslim authority issues guidelines saying they are permitted, she said.

It's not about God, it's just a natural fear of the unknown. And who can blame them. Injecting unknown substances directly into the body is something we should be fearful of, and it's up to the authorities to convince us that it's safe.

The silly thing is that pork was probably originally banned for what (in those days, before anyone knew about germs) were considered to be sound health reasons.

The Quran says:-

Quote:

The only things which are made unlawful for you are the flesh of dead animals, blood, pork and that which is not consecrated with the Name of God. But in an emergency, without the intention of transgression and rebellion, (it is not an offense for one to consume such things). God is certainly All-forgiving and All-merciful.

We certainly have an emergency, and All-forgiving All-merciful God would surely let us break a minor dietary law to save lives. So don't hang this one on the Muslim faith.

In the US many people are fearful of vaccines for non-religious reasons, partly because in the past some have not been safe, and partly because they are (rightly) suspicious of fast-tracking by a government which has shown itself to be untrustworthy. Luckily most of us won't be first in line, so we will (hopefully) know that it is safe before getting our own jabs.

Pixel42 · 20th December 2020, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Luckily most of us won't be first in line, so we will (hopefully) know that it is safe before getting our own jabs.

My sister (80, damaged lungs, cancer survivor) is getting her first jab on Thursday.

dudalb · 20th December 2020, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Concern Among Muslims Over Halal Status of COVID-19 Vaccine

Link: https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c

If you don't like it, die angry about it. I'm sorry the invisible man in the sky doesn't like one of the ingredients used in the life-saving drug that scientists worked their asses off to develop in order to stop the global pandemic.

Take it up with God.

You think MUslim religious leaders could give dispensation for the vaccine?

dudalb · 20th December 2020, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

o.O

This attribution strikes me as more than a little odd, to say the least. Not least because... it's still the Trump Administration in charge of the CDC. Blaming "progressives" for the actions of the Trump Administration certainly seems like an odd thing to do. Even moreso when it seems likely that the relevant business interests are the ones who would be much more likely to be influential in the decision making process in general and the Trump Administration/Republican propagandists have long made their lack of concern for the elderly and desire to force workers to go to work at the behest of business owners apparent. I'm calling the stated reasoning troll BS, in light of those factors.

Now, with that said, there's two major concerns in play when considering who to vaccinate, I think, especially when there's limited resources. Danger of personal harm and danger of spreading. The elderly are at much more risk of personal harm than essential workers, sure. Essential workers are likely at much greater risk of spreading the virus, though, and among the essential workers, the health care workers, especially those in hospitals (or dentistries) certainly should have higher priority when they're fairly certainly going to be exposed at a significantly higher rate than others. It's not *completely* without reason behind it, much as essential workers are certainly not all equally at risk.

This is like combat, you have to be very cold blooded in the decisions you make;the mission comes first because acheiving your mission will save lives in the long run.
Health Care workers and Essential services should jump to the head of the line because they are more important to fighting the virus then the elderly.
We have to deal with the realities; and throw ideology out the windows.
And the Left, I maintain, can be just a silly putting ideology before reality as the Right.

dudalb · 20th December 2020, 01:34 PM

I have to wonder if what is going out in the UK, with apparetnly a mutated strain of the Covid out of control, is going to have a impact over here.

The Greater Fool · 20th December 2020, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I have to wonder if what is going out in the UK, with apparetnly a mutated strain of the Covid out of control, is going to have a impact over here.

Another strain could very well mean the vaccine may not work against it. Another vaccine (or 2 or 3 or 5 or...) may be required. Not unlike the various strains of flu that require separate vaccines.

dudalb · 20th December 2020, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool

Another strain could very well mean the vaccine may not work against it. Another vaccine (or 2 or 3 or 5 or...) may be required. Not unlike the various strains of flu that require separate vaccines.

To quote Betty David in "All About Eve'

'Buckle Your Seatbelts, It's Going To Be a Bumpy ride'.

Fact is do not know that mucha bout the new mutation yet.
That is the problem with virus mutations;You know they are going to happen..mutating is whay viruses do...but you can't find out the particulars until the mutation happens.

I wonder if Donnie will start tweeting about the "London Virus".

Aridas · 20th December 2020, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

This is like combat, you have to be very cold blooded in the decisions you make;the mission comes first because acheiving your mission will save lives in the long run.
Health Care workers and Essential services should jump to the head of the line because they are more important to fighting the virus then the elderly.

Health Care, sure. "Essential" gets a bit more thorny, especially when "essential" in practice, has been significantly twisted to include a bunch of businesses that have little to do with combating the virus. In my case, for example, making plastic garden tools makes me an "essential worker," somehow.

Originally Posted by dudalb

We have to deal with the realities; and throw ideology out the windows.

That, I firmly disagree with. That would simply end up with the rich and powerful being treated as the only ones that matter. When the objective is reducing the overall harm done as much as possible, an ideological commitment with some framework about what that even means is necessary.

Originally Posted by dudalb

And the Left, I maintain, can be just a silly putting ideology before reality as the Right.

Any individual left-leaning person could, sure. As a group, however, that claim doesn't apply all that well here. Pretty much by definition, the left is more community-oriented, while the right is more individual-oriented.

dudalb · 20th December 2020, 06:06 PM

Canada just banned flights from the UK. I suspect the US will do the same in a couple of days.

Resume · 20th December 2020, 06:33 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
18,267,579
Deaths:
324,869

New Cases:
183,223
New Deaths:
1,414

Skeptic Ginger · 20th December 2020, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Canada just banned flights from the UK. I suspect the US will do the same in a couple of days.

I don't think that will do us any good,

Puppycow · 20th December 2020, 07:08 PM

https://twitter.com/jbarro/status/1340697524517150729

Quote:

ACIP has taken another crack at recommending vaccine priority after healthcare workers. Instead of essential workers before seniors, it’s 75+ together with the most exposed workers, followed by 65+ with other essential workers & people with co-morbidities.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...ID-Dooling.pdf

The Don · 21st December 2020, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I don't think that will do us any good,

Yup.

If the initial indications as to the virulence of this strain are right then it's already too late - not least because it's been in the UK for a couple of months already - plenty of time to have made it across the Atlantic.

Heck, Mrs Don has been there and back in that time having been in London (the epicentre of the new strain) just before her departure.

Captain_Swoop · 21st December 2020, 08:55 AM

Trump Tweets

“The President was responsible for those direct payments to Americans in the Covid-19 Relief Bill.” @kilmeade @foxandfriends

And the Moderna vaccine has already started rolling out. Very smooth distribution!

Captain_Swoop · 21st December 2020, 09:07 AM

Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic?
Well, he got the vaccine yesterday.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Yup.

If the initial indications as to the virulence of this strain are right then it's already too late - not least because it's been in the UK for a couple of months already - plenty of time to have made it across the Atlantic.

Heck, Mrs Don has been there and back in that time having been in London (the epicentre of the new strain) just before her departure.

And it's in Oz now, 2 cases.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic?
Well, he got the vaccine yesterday.

And another ******* jumps the queue.

Resume · 21st December 2020, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic?
Well, he got the vaccine yesterday.

This makes me really, really ******* angry.

eeyore1954 · 21st December 2020, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And another ******* jumps the queue.

I looked him up. Why would a health 38 year old be getting the vaccine at this early stage. Unless all of congress is supposed to.

I looked this up.

Quote:

The vaccines allotted to Congress are designed to ensure government continuity amid the crisis. So, at the direction of Congress’ attending physician, several lawmakers received their first dose of the vaccine

Maybe I agree.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

I looked him up. Why would a health 38 year old be getting the vaccine at this early stage. Unless all of congress is supposed to.

I looked this up.

Maybe I agree.

These are the same people who flaunted not wearing masks and flaunted social distancing. So no, that's crap that they have essential jobs.

A few of them, sure, I don't begrudge Biden or Pelosi or Feinstein, they are in the elderly category. All the Congressional staff that are over 70 or who have at risk conditions should get vaccinated.

But Pence and McConnell can't say they want the vaccine when they wouldn't wear a stupid little mask before now. They did of course claim that.

I'm guessing they still won't wear masks after they've been vaccinated. And those masks are even more important given they protect other people when a vaccinated individual has a very mild or an asymptomatic case.

I understand the need to show it's safe by getting one themselves so maybe I can see Harris getting one. There's a lot of talk about blacks mistrusting the vaccine so that makes some sense.

Of course these hypocrites like Gaetz see themselves as essential. I hope he hears all the negative response to that rationale, not that I expect him to have one bit of shame.

Roger Ramjets · 21st December 2020, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And those masks are even more important given they protect other people when a vaccinated individual has a very mild or an asymptomatic case.

No, then it's your fault for not being vaccinated yourself.

Couldn't get the vaccine because some ********* with political connections jumped the queue? That's also your fault. This is the land of equal opportunity, where any American can be successful if they just try hard enough. You didn't because you are too stupid and lazy to make it - so if we infect you it's your fault!

Trebuchet · 21st December 2020, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic?
Well, he got the vaccine yesterday.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And another ******* jumps the queue.

I don't have a problem with senior government officials -- and any member of Congress is pretty senior -- being put at the head of the line. But shouldn't he be immune anyhow, having tested positive shortly after the gas mask thing?

Segnosaur · 21st December 2020, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

I looked him up. Why would a health 38 year old be getting the vaccine at this early stage. Unless all of congress is supposed to.

I suppose an argument could be made that as a congress critter, they are expected to travel significantly, and will be in contact with a lot of different people. As such, even if they are at low risk of dying, they could end up being a one-man super spreader if they get infected.

Of course, when you have republicans who are actively fighting against other aspects of covid19 defense (like mask wearing) it gets a bit harder to justify giving them the vaccine.... but again you have to look at the chance that they might spread the disease to others.

Segnosaur · 21st December 2020, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I don't have a problem with senior government officials -- and any member of Congress is pretty senior -- being put at the head of the line. But shouldn't he be immune anyhow, having tested positive shortly after the gas mask thing?

From his wikipedia page...

He pulled the gas-mask stunt in March. He was exposed to someone with Covid shortly after, but the test came back negative.

He tested positive for antibodies but not the virus in November, suggesting that he had contracted it between April and October, but was asymptomatic and has no idea when he had it.

We do know that reinfection is possible (there have been documented cases), but we don't know how common it is, nor how long immunity lasts after one infection. Its possible (although I would say unlikely at this point) that whatever immunity he had before has diminished enough to put him at risk of reinfection.

Captain_Swoop · 21st December 2020, 01:25 PM

Kevin Sorbo tweets

@ksorbs
Serious question: if if covid is as deadly as the media and politicians claim, why isn’t the homeless population in California decimated?

In 10 years we will be seeing commercials saying “If you or a loved one suffered from the COVID-19 vaccination you may be entitled to financial compensation.”

Pfizer‘a CEO says he won’t get the vaccine because he doesn’t want to cut the line.
Seems awfully suspicious

Armitage72 · 21st December 2020, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Kevin Sorbo tweets

@ksorbs
Serious question: if if covid is as deadly as the media and politicians claim, why isn’t the homeless population in California decimated?

Gee, nobody has ever thought of that before.

California has established a number of social programs to help the homeless deal with the virus.
Homeless people spend a lot of their time outdoors.
People kept their distance from homeless people before the pandemic.

Studies of homeless people have shown an unusually high percentage of asymptomatic cases though. They're trying to figure out why, according to the article.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I don't have a problem with senior government officials -- and any member of Congress is pretty senior -- being put at the head of the line. But shouldn't he be immune anyhow, having tested positive shortly after the gas mask thing?

Any member of Congress might be "senior". I was talking about age not status. Given the country didn't seem too much out of sorts when all those idiots in and around the WH had COVID; none of those mask-defying ******* can claim they are essential.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

.... but again you have to look at the chance that they might spread the disease to others.

So people need a vaccine because they refuse to wear a mask?

Resume · 21st December 2020, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Seems awfully suspicious

As does your intellect, Ksorbs. Just go back and make bad christian movies with David A. R. White; it's what you're mediocre at.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 05:19 PM

Joy Reid, MSNBC, is interviewing Harris right now. Reid asked what Harris thought about Congress putting themselves at the front of the queue for the vaccine. Harris could hardly complain given she and her husband are getting the vaccine tomorrow and Biden got his today.

I wish Harris had mentioned the hypocrisy of refusing to wear masks but jumping in line to get the vaccine but she didn't. Instead she just talked about the importance of the vaccine yadda yadda.

On the politics side, not COVID side: Harris is certainly refreshing compared to the stiff yes-man Pence.

Captain_Swoop · 21st December 2020, 05:26 PM

Kayleigh McEnany tweets
@kayleighmcenany

Before the election...

Biden was a vaccine denier

Kamala was a vaccine denier

Pelosi denied the American People COVID relief

Now...

Biden & Harris take Trump Vaccine

Pelosi finally agrees to COVID relief

BLATANT POLITICS at your expense!!

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 05:34 PM

Skeptic Ginger · 21st December 2020, 06:11 PM

All the ******* Congressional queue cutters are claiming it was upon the recommendation of the Office of the Attending Physician.

What a croc of ****.

And McEnany claiming Biden and Harris were vaccine deniers, and people believe that gaslighting?

Resume · 21st December 2020, 07:18 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
18,473,716
Deaths:
326,772

New Cases:
200,109
New Deaths:
1,841

kookbreaker · 21st December 2020, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Kayleigh McEnany tweets
@kayleighmcenany

Before the election...

Biden was a vaccine denier

Kamala was a vaccine denier

Pelosi denied the American People COVID relief

Now...

Biden & Harris take Trump Vaccine

Pelosi finally agrees to COVID relief

BLATANT POLITICS at your expense!!

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

ChrisBFRPKY · 21st December 2020, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Concern Among Muslims Over Halal Status of COVID-19 Vaccine

Link: https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c

If you don't like it, die angry about it. I'm sorry the invisible man in the sky doesn't like one of the ingredients used in the life-saving drug that scientists worked their asses off to develop in order to stop the global pandemic.

Take it up with God.

This is terrible. Muslims actually believe if one drop of blood from a pig touches them, they're bound for Hell with no chance to enter Mecca. This will undoubtedly lead to mass rejection of the vaccine in the Middle East. Accidental oversight by vaccine mfgs? Surely nobody's that dumb.

quadraginta · 21st December 2020, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

This is terrible. Muslims actually believe if one drop of blood from a pig touches them, they're bound for Hell with no chance to enter Mecca. This will undoubtedly lead to mass rejection of the vaccine in the Middle East. Accidental oversight by vaccine mfgs? Surely nobody's that dumb.

Both Muslim and Jewish religious authorities have come out with statements affirming the propriety of taking vaccines which contain gelatin made from pork products. Not just this time around, but for many years in the past.

So it isn't a generic "Muslims actually believe". They have their fundi, wing-nut, neolithic wackos just like Christians do. You shouldn't tar then all with the same brush any more than you should assume that all Christians are like fundi, wing-nut Southern Baptists.

ChrisBFRPKY · 21st December 2020, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Both Muslim and Jewish religious authorities have come out with statements affirming the propriety of taking vaccines which contain gelatin made from pork products. Not just this time around, but for many years in the past.

So it isn't a generic "Muslims actually believe". They have their fundi, wing-nut, neolithic wackos just like Christians do. You shouldn't tar then all with the same brush any more than you should assume that all Christians are like fundi, wing-nut Southern Baptists.

I've never met a Muslim that ate pork to my knowledge, or one that claimed to eat pork. It's a central part of their religion to stay away from pork.

I think it would be far more likely to find Muslims with an aversion to pork rather than an acceptance of it. I personally have not branded anyone Muslim to be central or extreme regarding pork consumption. I was only referring to what their religion teaches about it being forbidden for a specific reason.

The terrible part is that whoever made the vaccine did not take this into account when they should have.

20th December 2020, 10:51 AM	#121
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,710	Concern Among Muslims Over Halal Status of COVID-19 Vaccine Quote: As companies race to develop a COVID-19 vaccine and countries scramble to secure doses, questions about the use of pork products — banned by some religious groups — has raised concerns about the possibility of disrupted immunization campaigns. Link: https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c If you don't like it, die angry about it. I'm sorry the invisible man in the sky doesn't like one of the ingredients used in the life-saving drug that scientists worked their asses off to develop in order to stop the global pandemic. Take it up with God.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 20th December 2020 at 10:53 AM.

20th December 2020, 10:56 AM	#122
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,686	Sounds like the Russian Disinfo on HIV in Africa all other again ...
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

20th December 2020, 11:50 AM	#123
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,343	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue If you don't like it, die angry about it. I'm sorry the invisible man in the sky doesn't like one of the ingredients used in the life-saving drug that scientists worked their asses off to develop in order to stop the global pandemic. Take it up with God. Quote: “Our studies have found that some Muslims in Indonesia feel uncomfortable with accepting vaccinations containing these ingredients,” even when the Muslim authority issues guidelines saying they are permitted, she said. It's not about God, it's just a natural fear of the unknown. And who can blame them. Injecting unknown substances directly into the body is something we should be fearful of, and it's up to the authorities to convince us that it's safe. The silly thing is that pork was probably originally banned for what (in those days, before anyone knew about germs) were considered to be sound health reasons. The Quran says:- Quote: The only things which are made unlawful for you are the flesh of dead animals, blood, pork and that which is not consecrated with the Name of God. But in an emergency, without the intention of transgression and rebellion, (it is not an offense for one to consume such things). God is certainly All-forgiving and All-merciful. We certainly have an emergency, and All-forgiving All-merciful God would surely let us break a minor dietary law to save lives. So don't hang this one on the Muslim faith. In the US many people are fearful of vaccines for non-religious reasons, partly because in the past some have not been safe, and partly because they are (rightly) suspicious of fast-tracking by a government which has shown itself to be untrustworthy. Luckily most of us won't be first in line, so we will (hopefully) know that it is safe before getting our own jabs.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 20th December 2020 at 11:52 AM.

20th December 2020, 12:23 PM	#124
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,018	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Luckily most of us won't be first in line, so we will (hopefully) know that it is safe before getting our own jabs. My sister (80, damaged lungs, cancer survivor) is getting her first jab on Thursday.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

20th December 2020, 01:24 PM	#125
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Concern Among Muslims Over Halal Status of COVID-19 Vaccine Link: https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...f736d9badb397c If you don't like it, die angry about it. I'm sorry the invisible man in the sky doesn't like one of the ingredients used in the life-saving drug that scientists worked their asses off to develop in order to stop the global pandemic. Take it up with God. You think MUslim religious leaders could give dispensation for the vaccine?
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th December 2020, 01:32 PM	#126
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by Aridas o.O This attribution strikes me as more than a little odd, to say the least. Not least because... it's still the Trump Administration in charge of the CDC. Blaming "progressives" for the actions of the Trump Administration certainly seems like an odd thing to do. Even moreso when it seems likely that the relevant business interests are the ones who would be much more likely to be influential in the decision making process in general and the Trump Administration/Republican propagandists have long made their lack of concern for the elderly and desire to force workers to go to work at the behest of business owners apparent. I'm calling the stated reasoning troll BS, in light of those factors. Now, with that said, there's two major concerns in play when considering who to vaccinate, I think, especially when there's limited resources. Danger of personal harm and danger of spreading. The elderly are at much more risk of personal harm than essential workers, sure. Essential workers are likely at much greater risk of spreading the virus, though, and among the essential workers, the health care workers, especially those in hospitals (or dentistries) certainly should have higher priority when they're fairly certainly going to be exposed at a significantly higher rate than others. It's not completely without reason behind it, much as essential workers are certainly not all equally at risk. This is like combat, you have to be very cold blooded in the decisions you make;the mission comes first because acheiving your mission will save lives in the long run. Health Care workers and Essential services should jump to the head of the line because they are more important to fighting the virus then the elderly. We have to deal with the realities; and throw ideology out the windows. And the Left, I maintain, can be just a silly putting ideology before reality as the Right.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th December 2020, 01:34 PM	#127
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	I have to wonder if what is going out in the UK, with apparetnly a mutated strain of the Covid out of control, is going to have a impact over here.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th December 2020, 01:38 PM	#128
The Greater Fool Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Milky Way, Sol, Earth, Northern Hemisphere, USA, AZ, Scottsdale Posts: 4,327	Originally Posted by dudalb I have to wonder if what is going out in the UK, with apparetnly a mutated strain of the Covid out of control, is going to have a impact over here. Another strain could very well mean the vaccine may not work against it. Another vaccine (or 2 or 3 or 5 or...) may be required. Not unlike the various strains of flu that require separate vaccines.
	__________________ - "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

20th December 2020, 02:03 PM	#129
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by The Greater Fool Another strain could very well mean the vaccine may not work against it. Another vaccine (or 2 or 3 or 5 or...) may be required. Not unlike the various strains of flu that require separate vaccines. To quote Betty David in "All About Eve' 'Buckle Your Seatbelts, It's Going To Be a Bumpy ride'. Fact is do not know that mucha bout the new mutation yet. That is the problem with virus mutations;You know they are going to happen..mutating is whay viruses do...but you can't find out the particulars until the mutation happens. I wonder if Donnie will start tweeting about the "London Virus".
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th December 2020, 02:33 PM	#130
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,469	Originally Posted by dudalb This is like combat, you have to be very cold blooded in the decisions you make;the mission comes first because acheiving your mission will save lives in the long run. Health Care workers and Essential services should jump to the head of the line because they are more important to fighting the virus then the elderly. Health Care, sure. "Essential" gets a bit more thorny, especially when "essential" in practice, has been significantly twisted to include a bunch of businesses that have little to do with combating the virus. In my case, for example, making plastic garden tools makes me an "essential worker," somehow. Originally Posted by dudalb We have to deal with the realities; and throw ideology out the windows. That, I firmly disagree with. That would simply end up with the rich and powerful being treated as the only ones that matter. When the objective is reducing the overall harm done as much as possible, an ideological commitment with some framework about what that even means is necessary. Originally Posted by dudalb And the Left, I maintain, can be just a silly putting ideology before reality as the Right. Any individual left-leaning person could, sure. As a group, however, that claim doesn't apply all that well here. Pretty much by definition, the left is more community-oriented, while the right is more individual-oriented.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 20th December 2020 at 02:37 PM.

20th December 2020, 06:06 PM	#131
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Canada just banned flights from the UK. I suspect the US will do the same in a couple of days.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th December 2020, 06:33 PM	#132
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,864	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 18,267,579 Deaths: 324,869 New Cases: 183,223 New Deaths: 1,414

20th December 2020, 06:38 PM	#133
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	Originally Posted by dudalb Canada just banned flights from the UK. I suspect the US will do the same in a couple of days. I don't think that will do us any good,

20th December 2020, 07:08 PM	#134
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,758	https://twitter.com/jbarro/status/1340697524517150729 Quote: ACIP has taken another crack at recommending vaccine priority after healthcare workers. Instead of essential workers before seniors, it’s 75+ together with the most exposed workers, followed by 65+ with other essential workers & people with co-morbidities. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...ID-Dooling.pdf
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

21st December 2020, 06:19 AM	#135
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,368	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I don't think that will do us any good, Yup. If the initial indications as to the virulence of this strain are right then it's already too late - not least because it's been in the UK for a couple of months already - plenty of time to have made it across the Atlantic. Heck, Mrs Don has been there and back in that time having been in London (the epicentre of the new strain) just before her departure.

21st December 2020, 08:55 AM	#136
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,968	Trump Tweets “The President was responsible for those direct payments to Americans in the Covid-19 Relief Bill.” @kilmeade @foxandfriends And the Moderna vaccine has already started rolling out. Very smooth distribution!

21st December 2020, 09:07 AM	#137
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,968	Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic? Well, he got the vaccine yesterday.

21st December 2020, 09:18 AM	#138
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	Originally Posted by The Don Yup. If the initial indications as to the virulence of this strain are right then it's already too late - not least because it's been in the UK for a couple of months already - plenty of time to have made it across the Atlantic. Heck, Mrs Don has been there and back in that time having been in London (the epicentre of the new strain) just before her departure. And it's in Oz now, 2 cases.

21st December 2020, 09:20 AM	#139
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic? Well, he got the vaccine yesterday. And another ******* jumps the queue.

21st December 2020, 09:36 AM	#140
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,864	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic? Well, he got the vaccine yesterday. This makes me really, really ******* angry.

21st December 2020, 11:40 AM	#141
eeyore1954 Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,745	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger And another ******* jumps the queue. I looked him up. Why would a health 38 year old be getting the vaccine at this early stage. Unless all of congress is supposed to. I looked this up. Quote: The vaccines allotted to Congress are designed to ensure government continuity amid the crisis. So, at the direction of Congress’ attending physician, several lawmakers received their first dose of the vaccine Maybe I agree.
eeyore1954 Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,745	Last edited by eeyore1954; 21st December 2020 at 11:42 AM.

21st December 2020, 11:56 AM	#142
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	Originally Posted by eeyore1954 I looked him up. Why would a health 38 year old be getting the vaccine at this early stage. Unless all of congress is supposed to. I looked this up. Maybe I agree. These are the same people who flaunted not wearing masks and flaunted social distancing. So no, that's crap that they have essential jobs. A few of them, sure, I don't begrudge Biden or Pelosi or Feinstein, they are in the elderly category. All the Congressional staff that are over 70 or who have at risk conditions should get vaccinated. But Pence and McConnell can't say they want the vaccine when they wouldn't wear a stupid little mask before now. They did of course claim that. I'm guessing they still won't wear masks after they've been vaccinated. And those masks are even more important given they protect other people when a vaccinated individual has a very mild or an asymptomatic case. I understand the need to show it's safe by getting one themselves so maybe I can see Harris getting one. There's a lot of talk about blacks mistrusting the vaccine so that makes some sense. Of course these hypocrites like Gaetz see themselves as essential. I hope he hears all the negative response to that rationale, not that I expect him to have one bit of shame.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 21st December 2020 at 11:58 AM.

21st December 2020, 12:55 PM	#143
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,343	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger And those masks are even more important given they protect other people when a vaccinated individual has a very mild or an asymptomatic case. No, then it's your fault for not being vaccinated yourself. Couldn't get the vaccine because some ********* with political connections jumped the queue? That's also your fault. This is the land of equal opportunity, where any American can be successful if they just try hard enough. You didn't because you are too stupid and lazy to make it - so if we infect you it's your fault!
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

21st December 2020, 01:01 PM	#144
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,066	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Remember when Matt Gaetz wore a gas mask on the House floor to sarcastically downplay the pandemic? Well, he got the vaccine yesterday. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger And another ******* jumps the queue. I don't have a problem with senior government officials -- and any member of Congress is pretty senior -- being put at the head of the line. But shouldn't he be immune anyhow, having tested positive shortly after the gas mask thing?
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

21st December 2020, 01:05 PM	#145
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,126	Originally Posted by eeyore1954 I looked him up. Why would a health 38 year old be getting the vaccine at this early stage. Unless all of congress is supposed to. I suppose an argument could be made that as a congress critter, they are expected to travel significantly, and will be in contact with a lot of different people. As such, even if they are at low risk of dying, they could end up being a one-man super spreader if they get infected. Of course, when you have republicans who are actively fighting against other aspects of covid19 defense (like mask wearing) it gets a bit harder to justify giving them the vaccine.... but again you have to look at the chance that they might spread the disease to others.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

21st December 2020, 01:17 PM	#146
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,126	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I don't have a problem with senior government officials -- and any member of Congress is pretty senior -- being put at the head of the line. But shouldn't he be immune anyhow, having tested positive shortly after the gas mask thing? From his wikipedia page... He pulled the gas-mask stunt in March. He was exposed to someone with Covid shortly after, but the test came back negative. He tested positive for antibodies but not the virus in November, suggesting that he had contracted it between April and October, but was asymptomatic and has no idea when he had it. We do know that reinfection is possible (there have been documented cases), but we don't know how common it is, nor how long immunity lasts after one infection. Its possible (although I would say unlikely at this point) that whatever immunity he had before has diminished enough to put him at risk of reinfection.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

21st December 2020, 01:25 PM	#147
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,968	Kevin Sorbo tweets @ksorbs Serious question: if if covid is as deadly as the media and politicians claim, why isn’t the homeless population in California decimated? In 10 years we will be seeing commercials saying “If you or a loved one suffered from the COVID-19 vaccination you may be entitled to financial compensation.” Pfizer‘a CEO says he won’t get the vaccine because he doesn’t want to cut the line. Seems awfully suspicious
	Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 21st December 2020 at 01:27 PM.

21st December 2020, 02:24 PM	#148
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,263	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Kevin Sorbo tweets @ksorbs Serious question: if if covid is as deadly as the media and politicians claim, why isn’t the homeless population in California decimated? Gee, nobody has ever thought of that before. California has established a number of social programs to help the homeless deal with the virus. Homeless people spend a lot of their time outdoors. People kept their distance from homeless people before the pandemic. Studies of homeless people have shown an unusually high percentage of asymptomatic cases though. They're trying to figure out why, according to the article.

21st December 2020, 02:36 PM	#149
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I don't have a problem with senior government officials -- and any member of Congress is pretty senior -- being put at the head of the line. But shouldn't he be immune anyhow, having tested positive shortly after the gas mask thing? Any member of Congress might be "senior". I was talking about age not status. Given the country didn't seem too much out of sorts when all those idiots in and around the WH had COVID; none of those mask-defying ******* can claim they are essential.

21st December 2020, 02:39 PM	#150
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	Originally Posted by Segnosaur .... but again you have to look at the chance that they might spread the disease to others. So people need a vaccine because they refuse to wear a mask?

21st December 2020, 03:26 PM	#151
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,864	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Seems awfully suspicious As does your intellect, Ksorbs. Just go back and make bad christian movies with David A. R. White; it's what you're mediocre at.

21st December 2020, 05:19 PM	#152
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	Joy Reid, MSNBC, is interviewing Harris right now. Reid asked what Harris thought about Congress putting themselves at the front of the queue for the vaccine. Harris could hardly complain given she and her husband are getting the vaccine tomorrow and Biden got his today. I wish Harris had mentioned the hypocrisy of refusing to wear masks but jumping in line to get the vaccine but she didn't. Instead she just talked about the importance of the vaccine yadda yadda. On the politics side, not COVID side: Harris is certainly refreshing compared to the stiff yes-man Pence.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 21st December 2020 at 05:22 PM.

21st December 2020, 05:26 PM	#153
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,968	Kayleigh McEnany tweets @kayleighmcenany Before the election... Biden was a vaccine denier Kamala was a vaccine denier Pelosi denied the American People COVID relief Now... Biden & Harris take Trump Vaccine Pelosi finally agrees to COVID relief BLATANT POLITICS at your expense!!

21st December 2020, 05:34 PM	#154
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008

21st December 2020, 06:11 PM	#155
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,008	All the ***** Congressional queue cutters are claiming it was upon the recommendation of the Office of the Attending Physician. What a croc of **. And McEnany claiming Biden and Harris were vaccine deniers, and people believe that gaslighting?
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 21st December 2020 at 06:12 PM.