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Old 7th January 2021, 02:47 PM   #3161
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
CN22 label is not much bother.
A commercial invoice is a 1 page document.
Templates are the norm, it's not a massive requirement.
A VAT return is not the end of the world either.

And all trade with the rest of the world requires paperwork.
I worked in ex-cellars wine shipping - the sheer amount of documentation is huge: letters of credit (a three-page document), promissory notes, forward contracts, bills of exchange, bills of lading, even before the goods arrived in England. All sorts of things can go wrong. We once had a shipping of wine from Chile worth about £2m. Loaded off the ship: the pallets were the WRONG SIZE and had to be sent back.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:10 PM   #3162
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How Brexit Affects Trade Between The UK and Finland (EU)

My local paper - newspapers are regional here - analysed what post-Brexit trade would mean for Finland.

Facts:
  • 2019: Finland Exports to the UK (UK Imports from Finland) €2.7billion 2.6% of Finland's exports
  • 2019 UK Exports to Finland (Finland imports from UK) €1.7billion 4.1% of total imports to Finland
  • UK is Finland's 11th most important trader in terms of monetary value
  • Main imports from the UK to Finland are:
  • Cars
  • Industrial machines and equipment
  • Medical supplies
  • Finland's main export to the UK are:
  • Paper (especially newsprint)
  • Cardboard
  • Mineral oils
  • Wood products

Finland believes that because of the customs duties (tariffs) on goods assembled with parts outside of the EU (depending on Value-Added of each component), the UK might decide to substitute this type of trade with China instead and remain tariff-free. But remember, China is an emerging economy set to be on a par with the west by 2028. These prices won't be as cheap as previously famed.

As the UK relies heavily on Finland for paper and wood products, this is something that might lead to an increase in the price of furniture, newspapers, magazines, packaging and books.

Finland sells a lot of popular UK produced cars as well as tractors. However, the car market is price sensitive so the UK car producers will need to ensure all their parts conform to EU standards if they want to avoid tariffs and price hikes (= decreasing share of the market).

As Finland currently exports £1bn more to the UK than the UK to Finland, it won't be a big loss to Finland as it only represents 4.1% of their total imports and cars, machinery and equipment can be always sought elsewhere if the tariffs are too high.

The UK won't be able to suddenly grow huge forests for pulp, wood and paper supplies.

In addition, Northern Ireland is not affected, as it will still be in the EU.
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Last edited by Vixen; 7th January 2021 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:13 PM   #3163
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Teesport gets several ships a week usually around 4000 grt size from Finland, mainly timber and paper.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:20 PM   #3164
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Teesport gets several ships a week usually around 4000 grt size from Finland, mainly timber and paper.
We have a lot of trees.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:29 PM   #3165
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'Baltic Trade' is still important on the East Coast. All the smaller ports like Boston and the other smaller Humber ports, Kings Lynn, Seaham, Goole, Wisbech etc get a lot of timber products and paper.
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:42 PM   #3166
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
<snippage of the usual Brexiteer lies, half-truths, distortions and gibberish>
Bollocks. As usual.
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:09 AM   #3167
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...n-after-brexit

Leave.eu moves registration to Ireland. Comical. You’d have thought they would say job done and dissolve, rather than give opposition ammunition.
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Old 8th January 2021, 01:52 AM   #3168
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I worked in ex-cellars wine shipping - the sheer amount of documentation is huge: letters of credit (a three-page document), promissory notes, forward contracts, bills of exchange, bills of lading, even before the goods arrived in England. All sorts of things can go wrong. We once had a shipping of wine from Chile worth about £2m. Loaded off the ship: the pallets were the WRONG SIZE and had to be sent back.
In my experience, those people who handwave away the administrative difficulties associated with international trade are those who have never had to deal with them.

I include myself in that number - until I tried to set up a subsidiary in the US. Until that point I had no idea how easy we had it just dealing with the EU

We ended up winding up the US subsidiary. The administrative headache wasn't worth the razor-thin margins.
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Old 8th January 2021, 02:16 AM   #3169
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In my experience, those people who handwave away the administrative difficulties associated with international trade are those who have never had to deal with them.

I include myself in that number - until I tried to set up a subsidiary in the US. Until that point I had no idea how easy we had it just dealing with the EU

We ended up winding up the US subsidiary. The administrative headache wasn't worth the razor-thin margins.
And I think people forget especially for online selling how thin the margins are. If you are factoring in selling internationally then it really isn't going to be worth the hassle in many cases.

I have a couple of EU suppliers that I haven't had to use this year yet but I imagine when I look into it then it may well not be worth it as no doubt they will have to increase prices.
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Old 8th January 2021, 02:25 AM   #3170
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And I think people forget especially for online selling how thin the margins are. If you are factoring in selling internationally then it really isn't going to be worth the hassle in many cases.

I have a couple of EU suppliers that I haven't had to use this year yet but I imagine when I look into it then it may well not be worth it as no doubt they will have to increase prices.
Looking in detail at the UPS receipt for my £23 surcharge on goods from China, roughly £12 was customs duty and £11 was a UPS handling charge. Given the cutthroat competition in the delivery business, I suspect that £12 is a fair reflection of the costs involved.

Meanwhile, the sunlit uplands are proving to be elusive.

Quote:
New border rules introduced last week are already creating problems for exporters and traders, say firms.

On Friday, Marks & Spencer became the latest company to warn of the administrative burden and increase in export costs to some countries.

Parcels firm DPD has already suspended some services and there have been warnings from seafood exporters.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55583244

Quote:
Shane Brennan, chief executive of the Cold Chain Federation, which represents chilled transport and storage companies, said the emerging problems have come despite the amount of cross border traffic still being quite low.

"Trade flows are still only about 50% of what we would expect, but even at those levels we are seeing levels of confusion and delays," he told the BBC's Today programme.
Once again it comes down to actually understanding the deal rather than just accepting government assurances.

Quote:
"Tariff free does not feel like tariff free when you read the fine print," M&S's chief executive Steve Rowe told Reuters on Thursday, ahead of the retailer's trading update on Friday.

"For big businesses there will be time-consuming workarounds but for a lot of others this means paying tariffs or rebasing into the EU."
Boris' deal may have been marginally better than no deal at all but it's proving to be a very shoddy deal indeed.


edited to add.....

I suppose the government is lucky that an attempted coup/insurrection in the US and the rising tide of Covid deaths are keeping the Brexit disruption off the front pages. In the case of Covid, it's likely to be for months IMO.

Last edited by The Don; 8th January 2021 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 8th January 2021, 03:41 AM   #3171
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Meanwhile, the sunlit uplands are proving to be elusive.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55583244



Once again it comes down to actually understanding the deal rather than just accepting government assurances.



Boris' deal may have been marginally better than no deal at all but it's proving to be a very shoddy deal indeed.
I am sorry, I have no sympathy for affected UK businesses. They should have sacked their advisors and employed brexiteers. Regularly supporters of brexit told us they knew exactly what they voted for. They have wanted this for over 4 years. They could explain to businesses how much better off they are with goods stuck in lorry queues, with extra paperwork & administration and the inability to provide services to any of the 27 EU member states. It would stop this incessant whinging if the businesses could appreciate the massive benefits.

Last edited by Lothian; 8th January 2021 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 8th January 2021, 04:00 AM   #3172
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784312.html

“ UK fishermen halting exports to EU as ‘catastrophe’ Brexit bureaucracy renders business unviable”
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Old 8th January 2021, 04:03 AM   #3173
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784312.html

“ UK fishermen halting exports to EU as ‘catastrophe’ Brexit bureaucracy renders business unviable”
Look we have taken back control of our waters. This is a success for British fishermen. Check the lines to take message on your pager.
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Old 8th January 2021, 05:16 AM   #3174
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784312.html

“ UK fishermen halting exports to EU as ‘catastrophe’ Brexit bureaucracy renders business unviable”
But they knew what they were voting for didn't they? Why so surprised when they get it?
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Old 8th January 2021, 05:59 AM   #3175
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Meanwhile, the sunlit uplands are proving to be elusive.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55583244



Once again it comes down to actually understanding the deal rather than just accepting government assurances.



Boris' deal may have been marginally better than no deal at all but it's proving to be a very shoddy deal indeed.


edited to add.....

I suppose the government is lucky that an attempted coup/insurrection in the US and the rising tide of Covid deaths are keeping the Brexit disruption off the front pages. In the case of Covid, it's likely to be for months IMO.

Also from that story:
Quote:
Scottish seafood exporters say they have been hit by a "perfect storm" of Brexit disruption, which could sink a centuries-old industry.
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:02 AM   #3176
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784312.html

“ UK fishermen halting exports to EU as ‘catastrophe’ Brexit bureaucracy renders business unviable”
And in The Guardian
It's likely that fishing quotas will be sold off.
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:08 AM   #3177
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Looking in detail at the UPS receipt for my £23 surcharge on goods from China, roughly £12 was customs duty and £11 was a UPS handling charge. Given the cutthroat competition in the delivery business, I suspect that £12 is a fair reflection of the costs involved.

Meanwhile, the sunlit uplands are proving to be elusive.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55583244



Once again it comes down to actually understanding the deal rather than just accepting government assurances.



Boris' deal may have been marginally better than no deal at all but it's proving to be a very shoddy deal indeed.


edited to add.....

I suppose the government is lucky that an attempted coup/insurrection in the US and the rising tide of Covid deaths are keeping the Brexit disruption off the front pages. In the case of Covid, it's likely to be for months IMO.
When you consider a huge PLC and MNC like M&S employ top quality logistics, auditors and accounting staff and they're scratching their heads, I doubt the ordinary British sole trader now having to register for VAT to send goods to the EU will find it 'just a case of filling in a template' as ceptimus claims.
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:12 AM   #3178
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am sorry, I have no sympathy for affected UK businesses. They should have sacked their advisors and employed brexiteers. Regularly supporters of brexit told us they knew exactly what they voted for. They have wanted this for over 4 years. They could explain to businesses how much better off they are with goods stuck in lorry queues, with extra paperwork & administration and the inability to provide services to any of the 27 EU member states. It would stop this incessant whinging if the businesses could appreciate the massive benefits.
Let's face it, post-Brexit provides plenty of employment for British workers. 50,000 more customs and tax staff. More border guards needed. And why, that sink hole in the world-beating Kent lorry park can easily be filled in by the usual low paid Romanians...oh wait, they've all gone home like we told them to, now one of our own has to do it. No way are we doing any dirty work!!! Where are the foreigners to do all this for us?
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:14 AM   #3179
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784312.html

“ UK fishermen halting exports to EU as ‘catastrophe’ Brexit bureaucracy renders business unviable”
According to ceptimus, this will lead to more sustainable fishing.

Ceptimus: we catch the fish to sell the fish.

Kimo sabe?
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:23 AM   #3180
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Let's face it, post-Brexit provides plenty of employment for British workers. 50,000 more customs and tax staff.
Despite saying that they would be required, the UK government seem to have done little or nothing to actually recruit them.

Again, grabbing headlines but having no intention of actually following through.
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:32 AM   #3181
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Despite saying that they would be required, the UK government seem to have done little or nothing to actually recruit them.

Again, grabbing headlines but having no intention of actually following through.
I know just the person to organise this...Diane 'Dido' Harding.

People with juvenile nicknames are the best equipped to run the country. Ask 'Matt', 'Liz' or 'Boris'.
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:40 AM   #3182
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784312.html

“ UK fishermen halting exports to EU as ‘catastrophe’ Brexit bureaucracy renders business unviable”
And Grant Shapps response is 'don't be silly it's all fine. I looked it up on the computer. All fine to me'
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:41 AM   #3183
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Despite saying that they would be required, the UK government seem to have done little or nothing to actually recruit them.

Again, grabbing headlines but having no intention of actually following through.
There is a chronic shortage of vets for bio-security inspections, so expect many, many delays, followed by collapse of businesses.

Ah, Brexit...
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:55 AM   #3184
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
There is a chronic shortage of vets for bio-security inspections, so expect many, many delays, followed by collapse of businesses.

Ah, Brexit...
Oh, it's going to be fine.

The UK will simply abandon any bio-security measures on imports and then blame "filthy foreigners" when foot and mouth (or similar) inevitably arrives. If those same "filthy foreigners" insist on their own biosecurity measures on UK exports then we'll complain about them deliberately punishing us for the amazing success of Brexit.
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Old 8th January 2021, 08:50 AM   #3185
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Oh, it's going to be fine.

The UK will simply abandon any bio-security measures on imports and then blame "filthy foreigners" when foot and mouth (or similar) inevitably arrives. If those same "filthy foreigners" insist on their own biosecurity measures on UK exports then we'll complain about them deliberately punishing us for the amazing success of Brexit.
do you reckon anyone in the Cabinet has actually read the deal as yet and could tell you what it actually requires?
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:26 AM   #3186
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
do you reckon anyone in the Cabinet has actually read the deal as yet and could tell you what it actually requires?
Of course not - they have people to do that for them and to skip over any inconvenient bits.
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:34 AM   #3187
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Noooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT PERCY PIG

Quote:
New Brexit trade rules could mean extra tax on Marks & Spencer's Percy Pig sweets outside the UK.

The sugary treats are made in Germany before being shipped to the UK, then re-exported to M&S outlets in Ireland, France and the Czech Republic.

That means they fall foul of complex regulations that now govern UK-EU trade.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55583244
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:46 AM   #3188
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Michael Gove says “significant additional disruption” is expected at the border in the coming weeks, particularly on the Dover-Calais route.
But he said that if the government does everything it can, working with businesses, “then we can make sure that we do get to a new normal where trade flows more freely than ever before.”

He's delusional.
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Old 8th January 2021, 03:20 PM   #3189
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Michael Gove says “significant additional disruption” is expected at the border in the coming weeks, particularly on the Dover-Calais route.
But he said that if the government does everything it can, working with businesses, “then we can make sure that we do get to a new normal where trade flows more freely than ever before.”

He's delusional.
He's a Brexiteer.
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Old 8th January 2021, 03:32 PM   #3190
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'just a case of filling in a template' as ceptimus claims.
Liar. I never claimed any such thing.
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Old 8th January 2021, 05:02 PM   #3191
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Government to let farmers use bee-killing pesticide banned in EU

A bee-killing pesticide so poisonous that it is banned by the EU may be used on sugar beet in England, the government has announced.
The decision prompted fury from nature-lovers and environmentalists, who accused ministers of bowing to pressure from farmers.
They said during the biodiversity crisis, when at least half the world’s insects have disappeared, the government should be doing everything it could to save bees, not allow them to be killed.

Environment secretary George Eustice has agreed to let a product containing the neonicotinoid thiamethoxam to treat sugar beet seed this year in an effort to protect the crop from a virus.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784693.html
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Old 8th January 2021, 07:03 PM   #3192
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Government to let farmers use bee-killing pesticide banned in EU

A bee-killing pesticide so poisonous that it is banned by the EU may be used on sugar beet in England, the government has announced.
The decision prompted fury from nature-lovers and environmentalists, who accused ministers of bowing to pressure from farmers.
They said during the biodiversity crisis, when at least half the world’s insects have disappeared, the government should be doing everything it could to save bees, not allow them to be killed.

Environment secretary George Eustice has agreed to let a product containing the neonicotinoid thiamethoxam to treat sugar beet seed this year in an effort to protect the crop from a virus.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1784693.html
A pesticide to protect against a virus? Interesting choice.

I would say this is an example of some Brexit voters getting what they want. The evidence on neo-nicotinoids wasn’t particularly compelling when the EU was discussing a ban in 2013. I stopped following the arguments so I don’t know if the evidence was stronger when the ban came in a couple of years ago. Some Brexit voters might be happy, therefore. Maybe not Brexit voting beekeepers, if the EU was right.
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Old 9th January 2021, 04:41 AM   #3193
Aber
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's unlikely that most small business computer systems would be set up to deal with international VAT though.

You first of all would have to charge the right VAT on the sale. I wouldn't know how to do this on my systems if someone from Belgium wanted to buy something and I had to charge Belgian VAT. I'd have to fudge it. Which takes 5 or 10 minutes of my time out of the day.

Even more complicated if you sell items at different VAT rates and you then need to keep track of what you actually need to charge.

Then you would have to keep track of which items you have sold to the UK, and the VAT charged so you can submit the return. Again just a faff if your system isn't set up for this, which it probably isn't.

Then you need to submit the return. Then you need to actually pay it... in a foreign currency and in a way that HMRC accepts. And incur the charges for the transaction. Plus any currency movement.

Plus you leave yourself open to HMRC deciding that they want to audit you or query your submissions.

Far from 10 minutes every quarter and if you are only doing a handful of orders to the UK I wouldn't bother with it. Would you?
Custom VAT codes and sales reports by customer country are not that complicated to set up on even a basic accounting package. If you haven't moved beyond spreadsheets then there may be an issue.

Submission of a VAT return requires a UK Government Gateway account but is simple; HMRC accepts payments by card.

If that's too complicated sell via Amazon etc.
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:01 AM   #3194
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Custom VAT codes and sales reports by customer country are not that complicated to set up on even a basic accounting package. If you haven't moved beyond spreadsheets then there may be an issue.

Submission of a VAT return requires a UK Government Gateway account but is simple; HMRC accepts payments by card.

If that's too complicated sell via Amazon etc.
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:09 AM   #3195
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And I think people forget especially for online selling how thin the margins are. If you are factoring in selling internationally then it really isn't going to be worth the hassle in many cases.

I have a couple of EU suppliers that I haven't had to use this year yet but I imagine when I look into it then it may well not be worth it as no doubt they will have to increase prices.
This week I've chatted to a couple of small business owners in my little corner of France. One is British and his business consisted of reselling goods imported from the UK: he has chosen to shut up shop and retire early. The other is a French-owned business manufacturing and selling very specific spare parts. He's decided to stop shipping to the UK and concentrate on his key markets of Germany and Italy.

But, you know, sunlit uplands and all that.
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Old 9th January 2021, 01:08 PM   #3196
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by malbui View Post
This week I've chatted to a couple of small business owners in my little corner of France. One is British and his business consisted of reselling goods imported from the UK: he has chosen to shut up shop and retire early. The other is a French-owned business manufacturing and selling very specific spare parts. He's decided to stop shipping to the UK and concentrate on his key markets of Germany and Italy.

But, you know, sunlit uplands and all that.
Shame... apparently its super easy and just 10 minutes work to resolve it all
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Old 9th January 2021, 02:20 PM   #3197
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Shame... apparently its super easy and just 10 minutes work to resolve it all
Maybe the EU negotiator doesn’t like a cup of tea.
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Old 9th January 2021, 03:26 PM   #3198
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I have stopped selling to Europe
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Old 9th January 2021, 04:15 PM   #3199
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I have stopped selling to Europe
Nitpick: I think you mean the 'European Union', unless you've also stopped selling to England, Wales and Scotland. They do remain in the geographical area of Europe, despite the fever-fantasies of Brexiteers.
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Old 9th January 2021, 04:20 PM   #3200
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UK ‘rejected offer’ of visa-free tours by musicians in EU, despite blaming Brussels it appears the stumbling block was Priti Patel’s immigration crackdown which has introduced tough restrictions on tours by EU musicians.

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