Evolutionary advantage of Type 2 Diabetes? - Page 7

CORed · 17th December 2020, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Louden Wilde

This! Modern humans are thought to have been around > 200,000 years. It's only in the last few thousand that many of us have had the combination of nearly unlimited access to calories and ability to lead to a sedentary life. Note that restricting calories and/or time-restricted eating and/or fasting all increase insulin sensitivity - I've posted a number of references to get into the lit in this thread

To be clear, no I don't think T2DM was selected for, rather genotypes that
were selected for now predispose to T2DM susceptibility under current "western" conditions (prolonged increased calorie intake/reduced activity)

I believe there are a lot of factors involved in the related problems of insulin resistance obesity and type 2 diabetes. But I believe that continuous availability of food has a lot to do with it. When a famine might be just around the corner, there is survival value in packing on some fat. It just might make the difference between starving to death and making it through the famine. When there is no famine coming, not so much.

I also think that the typical diet of most people, at least in develoed countries, constains more carbohyderates than is healthy. The combination of too many calories and too much carbohydrates is what leads to both obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Trebuchet · 17th December 2020, 05:02 PM

Caveat: Have not read the whole thread!
It's hard to see how T2 diabetes is going to be an evolutionary advantage. It kills you, but doesn't normally occur until after breeding age so that's not a big deal.
The tendency to gain weight, and to find fats to be tasty, may well be an evolutionary advantage. I times not so long past, when the availability of food was far from certain, having some fat reserves would help to get you through the lean times. The downsides, T2 and heart disease, tend to occur after breeding years.

HansMustermann · 17th December 2020, 07:56 PM

I'm not a doctor, but it seems to me like the other way around: a safeguard of sorts against getting TOO fat to hunt for your next meal.

Insulin helps basically convert sugar from food into fat for storage. As you keep forcing the body to do this too much, it starts to develop insulin resistance. Which in turn leaves some sugar in the blood so that you don't get hungry too soon. If you keep at it even more, eventually it can turn into full tilt type II diabetes. Which really is just an extreme form of insulin resistance.

It seems to me like way back in the times when this evolved, it wasn't even likely to go all the way. Whether for humans or the occasional obese pet with diabetes, yeah, it involves a rather unusual situation, compared to most animals out in the wild.

dann · 5th January 2021, 01:54 PM

It wouldn't have been much fun to be obese in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, but I doubt that it ever happened. There may have been hort-lived type-1 cases, but probably no type-2 diabetics. I don't think there are any in the few hunter-gatherer societies that still exist.

Skeptical Greg · 5th January 2021, 03:17 PM

Excellent points.. i agree with you.

casebro · 5th January 2021, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by dann

It wouldn't have been much fun to be obese in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, but I doubt that it ever happened. There may have been hort-lived type-1 cases, but probably no type-2 diabetics. I don't think there are any in the few hunter-gatherer societies that still exist.

Or the evolutionary advantage may have been that one you have eaten enough carbs to jack up your glucose, you lay down and take a nap, there by allowing other tribe members to get their share of... ripe fruit?

Vixen · 5th January 2021, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

I would like see more..

Were there any control groups with meals besides:

Lower? Lower than what?

I would like to see the results after a high calorie meal of bacon and eggs - at one hour and 2 hours...

If this is supposed to be science, it's really bad science..

Is the idea supposed to be, that it's OK eat crap as long as you chase it with some wine?

Who funded this study?

Hopefully, it wasn't McDs' along with some winery...

Egg and bacon isn't high calorie. It is high protein. Egg, 80 cal, bacon thin slice, 90, cal.

Vixen · 5th January 2021, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by dann

You will appreciate this new Swedish study:

A glass of red wine with your meal lowers blood sugar and increases satiety better than an alternative without alcohol, according to a new study from the University of Linköping.
New study: Red wine lowers blood sugar

A sample size of seven men and seven women - presumably quite young being medical students is hardly a representative sample. A lot would depend on whether they drink regularly, sometimes or never. Whether they were used to such fatty meals and how well they burn off energy (metabolism).

I can't see how drinking red alcoholic wine alleviates type-II diabetes.

It's known as an aperitif in France.

Vixen · 5th January 2021, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by dann

It wouldn't have been much fun to be obese in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, but I doubt that it ever happened. There may have been hort-lived type-1 cases, but probably no type-2 diabetics. I don't think there are any in the few hunter-gatherer societies that still exist.

Well, there are the Saami and there is this study:

Quote:

The aim of the study was to estimate and compare the 8-year cumulative incidence of diabetes mellitus (DM) among Sami and non-Sami inhabitants of rural districts in Northern Norway.

<snip>

Results
At baseline, body mass index (BMI) and waist-to-height ratio (WHtR) were higher among Sami than among their non-Sami counterparts. After 8 years of follow-up, 201 incident cases of DM were identified (6.1% both Sami and non-Sami subjects). No statistically significant difference was observed in the cumulative incidence of DM between the Sami and non-Sami.

Conclusions
No statistically significant difference in the 8-year cumulative incidence of DM among Sami and non-Sami was observed, although Sami men and women had higher baseline BMI and WHtR.

https://bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentra...902-019-0399-7

So, in other words, although the Sami population had a higher BMI it was not linked to DM. There could be all sorts of factors at play here. Modern day hunter-gatherer clans likely get a lot of their food from a supermarket rather than by direct husbandry.

dann · 7th January 2021, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

A sample size of seven men and seven women - presumably quite young being medical students is hardly a representative sample. A lot would depend on whether they drink regularly, sometimes or never. Whether they were used to such fatty meals and how well they burn off energy (metabolism).

I can't see how drinking red alcoholic wine alleviates type-II diabetes.

It's known as an aperitif in France.

The sample size is obviously a problem, but I don't see any problem with their age - except that you obviously can't generalize from this group to the rest of the population.

dann · 7th January 2021, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Well, there are the Saami and there is this study:

https://bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentra...902-019-0399-7

So, in other words, although the Sami population had a higher BMI it was not linked to DM. There could be all sorts of factors at play here. Modern day hunter-gatherer clans likely get a lot of their food from a supermarket rather than by direct husbandry.

It seems that you really need to stretch the definition of hunter-gatherers to make this example work!

I am not sure that the difference in BMI has to do with body-fat percentage instead of with ethnic physique due to evolutionary adaptation to living where its very cold.

casebro · 7th January 2021, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by dann

It seems that you really need to stretch the definition of hunter-gatherers to make this example work!

I am not sure that the difference in BMI has to do with body-fat percentage instead of with ethnic physique due to evolutionary adaptation to living where its very cold.

That study actually compared genetics, not 'hunter/gatherer diet' vs modern. Because they knew the Sami were not necessarily eating their old H/G diet.

jimbob · 7th January 2021, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

That study actually compared genetics, not 'hunter/gatherer diet' vs modern. Because they knew the Sami were not necessarily eating their old H/G diet.

They're traditionally (semi) nomadic pastoralists and probably have been for several thousand years, so not really hunter-gatherer lifestyle. We can be sure their diet would have been very rich in meat and fish during the winter.

lomiller · 13th January 2021, 10:38 AM

Isn't the original question a little bit like asking "what's the evolutionary advantage of drowning"?

Evolution responds to things that are important for passing on our genes and ignores those that are not. It's not the lest bit surprising that conditions evolution hasn't needed to respond to can kill us All the food we could want, all the time with little effort isn't something that normally exists in natural ecosystems because populations tend to grow until food/water is a limiting factor.

HansMustermann · 13th January 2021, 10:46 AM

Pretty much, yes.

casebro · 13th January 2021, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Isn't the original question a little bit like asking "what's the evolutionary advantage of drowning"?

Evolution responds to things that are important for passing on our genes and ignores those that are not. It's not the lest bit surprising that conditions evolution hasn't needed to respond to can kill us All the food we could want, all the time with little effort isn't something that normally exists in natural ecosystems because populations tend to grow until food/water is a limiting factor.

For a gene to evolve in 42% of the population there must be a + to it, not just a-potency. (you can not force enough carbs down the throats of the other 58% to make them diabetic. Obese, sure)

The Thrifty Gene meme is one +.

I didn't start this thread to discuss obesity, or other down sides of diabetes. I wanted to open people's minds to other possibilities.

lomiller · 14th January 2021, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

For a gene to evolve in 42% of the population there must be a + to it, not just a-potency.

There are genetic sequences which do absolutely nothing but exist in 100% of the population. Founder effects can easily carry genes to become ubiquitous if they are not actively selected again. Alternatively genes get reused so genes can be actively selected for even if they have some bad effects in other circumstances.

17th December 2020, 05:02 PM	#242
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 30,602	Caveat: Have not read the whole thread! It's hard to see how T2 diabetes is going to be an evolutionary advantage. It kills you, but doesn't normally occur until after breeding age so that's not a big deal. The tendency to gain weight, and to find fats to be tasty, may well be an evolutionary advantage. I times not so long past, when the availability of food was far from certain, having some fat reserves would help to get you through the lean times. The downsides, T2 and heart disease, tend to occur after breeding years.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. Last edited by Trebuchet; 17th December 2020 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Yet another homophone.

17th December 2020, 07:56 PM	#243
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 17,691	I'm not a doctor, but it seems to me like the other way around: a safeguard of sorts against getting TOO fat to hunt for your next meal. Insulin helps basically convert sugar from food into fat for storage. As you keep forcing the body to do this too much, it starts to develop insulin resistance. Which in turn leaves some sugar in the blood so that you don't get hungry too soon. If you keep at it even more, eventually it can turn into full tilt type II diabetes. Which really is just an extreme form of insulin resistance. It seems to me like way back in the times when this evolved, it wasn't even likely to go all the way. Whether for humans or the occasional obese pet with diabetes, yeah, it involves a rather unusual situation, compared to most animals out in the wild.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

5th January 2021, 01:54 PM	#244
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,259	It wouldn't have been much fun to be obese in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, but I doubt that it ever happened. There may have been hort-lived type-1 cases, but probably no type-2 diabetics. I don't think there are any in the few hunter-gatherer societies that still exist.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

5th January 2021, 03:17 PM	#245
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 16,835	Excellent points.. i agree with you.
	__________________ " The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

5th January 2021, 03:50 PM	#246
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,540	Originally Posted by dann It wouldn't have been much fun to be obese in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, but I doubt that it ever happened. There may have been hort-lived type-1 cases, but probably no type-2 diabetics. I don't think there are any in the few hunter-gatherer societies that still exist. Or the evolutionary advantage may have been that one you have eaten enough carbs to jack up your glucose, you lay down and take a nap, there by allowing other tribe members to get their share of... ripe fruit?
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

17th December 2020, 03:02 PM	#241
CORed Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 9,995	Originally Posted by Louden Wilde This! Modern humans are thought to have been around > 200,000 years. It's only in the last few thousand that many of us have had the combination of nearly unlimited access to calories and ability to lead to a sedentary life. Note that restricting calories and/or time-restricted eating and/or fasting all increase insulin sensitivity - I've posted a number of references to get into the lit in this thread To be clear, no I don't think T2DM was selected for, rather genotypes that were selected for now predispose to T2DM susceptibility under current "western" conditions (prolonged increased calorie intake/reduced activity) I believe there are a lot of factors involved in the related problems of insulin resistance obesity and type 2 diabetes. But I believe that continuous availability of food has a lot to do with it. When a famine might be just around the corner, there is survival value in packing on some fat. It just might make the difference between starving to death and making it through the famine. When there is no famine coming, not so much. I also think that the typical diet of most people, at least in develoed countries, constains more carbohyderates than is healthy. The combination of too many calories and too much carbohydrates is what leads to both obesity and type 2 diabetes.

5th January 2021, 04:18 PM	#247
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Suomi Posts: 20,208	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg I would like see more.. Were there any control groups with meals besides: Lower? Lower than what? I would like to see the results after a high calorie meal of bacon and eggs - at one hour and 2 hours... If this is supposed to be science, it's really bad science.. Is the idea supposed to be, that it's OK eat crap as long as you chase it with some wine? Who funded this study? Hopefully, it wasn't McDs' along with some winery... Egg and bacon isn't high calorie. It is high protein. Egg, 80 cal, bacon thin slice, 90, cal.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

5th January 2021, 04:22 PM	#248
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Suomi Posts: 20,208	Originally Posted by dann You will appreciate this new Swedish study: A glass of red wine with your meal lowers blood sugar and increases satiety better than an alternative without alcohol, according to a new study from the University of Linköping. New study: Red wine lowers blood sugar A sample size of seven men and seven women - presumably quite young being medical students is hardly a representative sample. A lot would depend on whether they drink regularly, sometimes or never. Whether they were used to such fatty meals and how well they burn off energy (metabolism). I can't see how drinking red alcoholic wine alleviates type-II diabetes. It's known as an aperitif in France.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

5th January 2021, 04:33 PM	#249
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Suomi Posts: 20,208	Originally Posted by dann It wouldn't have been much fun to be obese in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, but I doubt that it ever happened. There may have been hort-lived type-1 cases, but probably no type-2 diabetics. I don't think there are any in the few hunter-gatherer societies that still exist. Well, there are the Saami and there is this study: Quote: The aim of the study was to estimate and compare the 8-year cumulative incidence of diabetes mellitus (DM) among Sami and non-Sami inhabitants of rural districts in Northern Norway. <snip> Results At baseline, body mass index (BMI) and waist-to-height ratio (WHtR) were higher among Sami than among their non-Sami counterparts. After 8 years of follow-up, 201 incident cases of DM were identified (6.1% both Sami and non-Sami subjects). No statistically significant difference was observed in the cumulative incidence of DM between the Sami and non-Sami. Conclusions No statistically significant difference in the 8-year cumulative incidence of DM among Sami and non-Sami was observed, although Sami men and women had higher baseline BMI and WHtR. https://bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentra...902-019-0399-7 So, in other words, although the Sami population had a higher BMI it was not linked to DM. There could be all sorts of factors at play here. Modern day hunter-gatherer clans likely get a lot of their food from a supermarket rather than by direct husbandry.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

7th January 2021, 09:50 AM	#250
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,259	Originally Posted by Vixen A sample size of seven men and seven women - presumably quite young being medical students is hardly a representative sample. A lot would depend on whether they drink regularly, sometimes or never. Whether they were used to such fatty meals and how well they burn off energy (metabolism). I can't see how drinking red alcoholic wine alleviates type-II diabetes. It's known as an aperitif in France. The sample size is obviously a problem, but I don't see any problem with their age - except that you obviously can't generalize from this group to the rest of the population.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

7th January 2021, 10:09 AM	#251
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,259	Originally Posted by Vixen Well, there are the Saami and there is this study: https://bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentra...902-019-0399-7 So, in other words, although the Sami population had a higher BMI it was not linked to DM. There could be all sorts of factors at play here. Modern day hunter-gatherer clans likely get a lot of their food from a supermarket rather than by direct husbandry. It seems that you really need to stretch the definition of hunter-gatherers to make this example work! I am not sure that the difference in BMI has to do with body-fat percentage instead of with ethnic physique due to evolutionary adaptation to living where its very cold.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

7th January 2021, 12:28 PM	#252
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,540	Originally Posted by dann It seems that you really need to stretch the definition of hunter-gatherers to make this example work! I am not sure that the difference in BMI has to do with body-fat percentage instead of with ethnic physique due to evolutionary adaptation to living where its very cold. That study actually compared genetics, not 'hunter/gatherer diet' vs modern. Because they knew the Sami were not necessarily eating their old H/G diet.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

7th January 2021, 12:58 PM	#253
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,673	Originally Posted by casebro That study actually compared genetics, not 'hunter/gatherer diet' vs modern. Because they knew the Sami were not necessarily eating their old H/G diet. They're traditionally (semi) nomadic pastoralists and probably have been for several thousand years, so not really hunter-gatherer lifestyle. We can be sure their diet would have been very rich in meat and fish during the winter.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

13th January 2021, 10:38 AM	#254
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,153	Isn't the original question a little bit like asking "what's the evolutionary advantage of drowning"? Evolution responds to things that are important for passing on our genes and ignores those that are not. It's not the lest bit surprising that conditions evolution hasn't needed to respond to can kill us All the food we could want, all the time with little effort isn't something that normally exists in natural ecosystems because populations tend to grow until food/water is a limiting factor.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

13th January 2021, 10:46 AM	#255
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 17,691	Pretty much, yes.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

13th January 2021, 07:24 PM	#256
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,540	Originally Posted by lomiller Isn't the original question a little bit like asking "what's the evolutionary advantage of drowning"? Evolution responds to things that are important for passing on our genes and ignores those that are not. It's not the lest bit surprising that conditions evolution hasn't needed to respond to can kill us All the food we could want, all the time with little effort isn't something that normally exists in natural ecosystems because populations tend to grow until food/water is a limiting factor. For a gene to evolve in 42% of the population there must be a + to it, not just a-potency. (you can not force enough carbs down the throats of the other 58% to make them diabetic. Obese, sure) The Thrifty Gene meme is one +. I didn't start this thread to discuss obesity, or other down sides of diabetes. I wanted to open people's minds to other possibilities.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

14th January 2021, 02:19 PM	#257
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,153	Originally Posted by casebro For a gene to evolve in 42% of the population there must be a + to it, not just a-potency. There are genetic sequences which do absolutely nothing but exist in 100% of the population. Founder effects can easily carry genes to become ubiquitous if they are not actively selected again. Alternatively genes get reused so genes can be actively selected for even if they have some bad effects in other circumstances.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"