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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump impeachment

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Old 13th January 2021, 09:42 PM   #721
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Technical question. Do they have to complete the process for the second impeachment before they start a third one?
Does Trump want a younger, hotter third impeachment?
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:53 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
Trump statement:

"In light of reports of more demonstrations, I urge that there must be NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism of any kind. That is not what I stand for, and it is not what America stands for. I call on ALL Americans to help ease tensions and calm tempers. Thank You."

Fits in a tweet, by the way.

https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/13...869038594?s=19
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Anyone else think that wasn't Trump?
Honestly, it's plausible that it actually is Trump, in his usual shiny object fashion. He's facing a rather massive financial backlash and... maybe even the end of the Trump brand. He's apparently been strongly advised that the damage will be much less in the long term if he actually does call for peace compared to if he doubles down on sedition. How long any such peace push lasts, of course, is anyone's guess.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Georgia) just promised Newsmax to introduce articles of impeachment against Joe Biden on Jan. 21.
Entirely predictable that there would be Republicans seeking to impeach Biden on any pretext. I suppose we'll see how many Republicans sign on to this doomed attempt and see how many of them are willing to present even more evidence of how inimical they are to the US.


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Oh I don’t know, she seems to have a sound grasp of republican politics!
Yup.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:54 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
To be impeached once may be regarded as a misfortune.
To be impeached twice is a clear sign you’re a lying, corrupt, sociopathic fascist
They say this impeachment, can you believe it? Never before seen. Never before. Historic, nobody’s ever been impeached twice. Give me a break. Oh, oh, oh, Trump is so bad. He’s so bad. He’s the worst. You look at these radical left Democrats, the biggest witch hunt in history. Nobody’s ever seen anything like it. So horrible what they’ve done, so horrible. Trump is so bad, let’s impeach him again.

Crazy Nancy, she’s crazy you know. Says she prays for Trump. Give me a break. Such lies. Lies like you’ve never seen.

Folks, there’s only one reason to impeach. Because I’m in there every day fighting for you. Fighting like nobody’s ever fought. And they can’t stand it. So terrible what they do. Terrible. So they impeach. Phony, phony lies they all make up. Trump did this, Trump did that. It’s a disgrace.

Ooo, he’ll go down in history. He’s so bad. He’s so terrible. Impeach, impeach, impeach. But y’know what? I’m glad to go down in history. It makes me happy. Oh, oh sir, how can you say that? Aren’t you angry? Can you believe it? Me, a 92% approval? I said I’d drain the swamp, right? Am I right? I mean nobody’s ever fought so hard for you. And I wouldn’t let them take away your freedom or your second amendment or your stolen votes.

Look, it is what it is. A perfect phone call, let’s impeach. A totally appropriate speech, let’s impeach. Fighting for you good people like nobody’s ever fought before, let’s impeach. They can’t stand it. But I won. Total landslide. Always remember.

God bless America.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:56 PM   #724
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There were no telegraph or railroads when the Constitution was written, and a senator might be absent for good reason: his horse foundered, or his keelboat grounded on a shoal, or he fell ill with the flux while mud-stuck on the Choctaw Trace.

Nowadays, we have internet, and a senator could cast his vote while on a fact-finding mission in Ouled Nail or Tijuana or Bangkok (love that name, haw haw!), and it would be plumb legit. Dunno if the rules allow that, but why not?

"Present" doesn't have to mean physically there anymore. THIS NOT THE 18TH. *******. CENTURY.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 10. Do not disguise or misspell swear words in the public sections of the forum.
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Old 13th January 2021, 10:26 PM   #725
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Honestly, it's plausible that it actually is Trump, in his usual shiny object fashion. He's facing a rather massive financial backlash and... maybe even the end of the Trump brand. He's apparently been strongly advised that the damage will be much less in the long term if he actually does call for peace compared to if he doubles down on sedition. How long any such peace push lasts, of course, is anyone's guess.
it's crazy that someone needs to tell him that sedition is a pretty unpopular political position
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Old 13th January 2021, 11:29 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by Horhang View Post
This makes me unsure there will be a trial. There is no precedent for this after he has left office. Impeachment trials are to remove someone from public office. As of Jan 20 he no longer holds public office. I think this will wind up in the courts before it goes before the Senate.
There are two precedents:

Quote:
There is some historical precedent: The impeachments of Sen. William Blount in 1797 and Secretary of War William Belknap in 1876 both occurred after the men were no longer in office.
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Old 13th January 2021, 11:53 PM   #727
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
There were no telegraph or railroads when the Constitution was written, and a senator might be absent for good reason: his horse foundered, or his keelboat grounded on a shoal, or he fell ill with the flux while mud-stuck on the Choctaw Trace.

Nowadays, we have internet, and a senator could cast his vote while on a fact-finding mission in Ouled Nail or Tijuana or Bangkok (love that name, haw haw!), and it would be plumb legit. Dunno if the rules allow that, but why not?

"Present" doesn't have to mean physically there anymore. THIS NOT THE 18TH. *******. CENTURY.
The Senate rules require a senator to be physically present in order to vote.

A quorum is is required for voting - described as a simple majority of elected senators.
A majority of senators not required as a quorum is presumed unless an absence of a quorum is officially tabled.
A fifth of the senate is required to support the tabling for a suggestion of absence of a quorum.

A PDF of the rules as at March 26, 2020
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/96-452
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Old 14th January 2021, 12:17 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Honestly, it's plausible that it actually is Trump, in his usual shiny object fashion. He's facing a rather massive financial backlash and... maybe even the end of the Trump brand. He's apparently been strongly advised that the damage will be much less in the long term if he actually does call for peace compared to if he doubles down on sedition. How long any such peace push lasts, of course, is anyone's guess.
Sure, but he'd still need someone else to write it for him.



Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Entirely predictable that there would be Republicans seeking to impeach Biden on any pretext. I suppose we'll see how many Republicans sign on to this doomed attempt and see how many of them are willing to present even more evidence of how inimical they are to the US. ...
Not just doomed, but incredibly ignorant.

It will be especially interesting after an extensive investigation of what happened Wed is carried out.
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Old 14th January 2021, 12:19 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And McConnell knows full well when to switch horses.
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Old 14th January 2021, 12:35 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And McConnell knows full well when to switch horses.
McConnell is a crafty and well experienced devil. He knows exactly what he's doing.
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Old 14th January 2021, 12:42 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
... 92% approval? ...
Within his family.
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Old 14th January 2021, 01:49 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Entirely predictable that there would be Republicans seeking to impeach Biden on any pretext.
Or, as it turns out, a complete absence of any logically possible pretext.

Dave
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Old 14th January 2021, 02:39 AM   #733
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From the Queens Daily Eagle: Queens man impeached — again

Quote:
A Queens-born real estate developer made history Wednesday when he became the first U.S. president ever impeached twice by the House of Representatives.

Donald Trump, a 74-year-old lame duck Republican, is accused of inciting a lethal mob of far-right supporters to storm the U.S. Capitol in order to prevent Congress from certifying the results of his resounding loss in the November 2020 election. President-elect Joe Biden, a Democrat, recorded 306 electoral votes to Trump’s 232.

...

Ten Republican members of Congress joined the Democratic majority in voting to impeach the Jamaica Estates native for the second time.

In December 2019, Trump became the third president impeached by Congress — and the first from Queens.
Local press is the best.
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Old 14th January 2021, 02:51 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Well, the Republican party just tied itself to sedition and insurrection. They have defended the indefensible. This is all about messaging now. Something generally they are usually better at then the Democrats.

Still, this is going to be a hard sell.

I spent almost 30 years selling IT equipment and the one thing I can say is that it is one hell of a lot easier to sell quality then crap. Fortunately a large portion of their target consumers have been eating crap for a few years.
A number of companies have done that, trading on a past reputation, but surely people eventually realise you're now selling crap?
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Old 14th January 2021, 04:02 AM   #735
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Of course, if he gets impeached for a third time he gets to keep the White House.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:04 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sure, but he'd still need someone else to write it for him.



Not just doomed, but incredibly ignorant.

It will be especially interesting after an extensive investigation of what happened Wed is carried out.
This is the thing. When they're not being blocked, the investigations will make it very hard for people to pretend that, tonuse a phrase from what passes for a respectable Republican, he's "not a crook". And it's going to get through sufficient news bubbles that anyone standing by him will lose support.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:14 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's something I find somewhat depressing.

You can't convince me that there are no Democrats who think that impeaching him so close to the end of the term is a bad idea.

You can't convince me that there are no more than 10 Republicans who consider him unfit to be the President, and who thinks it's important to at least make a statement to that effect.

In other words, there's nothing inherently partisan about the question of removing him, and yet we get an almost perfect straight party line vote.
You see there, right there, that's post-facts trying to sneak its way back into the conversation.

If half a group says one thing and half a group says another, that doesn't always mean there's a valid disagreement.

If I ask 50 biologist and 50 Southern Baptist is evolution is true, the fact that I already know that within a rounding error with almost all of the biologist are going say "Yes of course it is, you're an idiot for an asking, it's been hundreds of years why are we still arguing about this" and all the Southern Baptist are going to say "GET BEHIND ME SATAN!" that doesn't mean I have to furrow my brow and go "Well it has to be a partisan issue."

Yes it is a partisan issue, in the sense that one party is factually correct and the other side is not. It's not a sign of "Partisan" as some sort of bias we have to worry about.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:20 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think there have been a couple of Federal Jusges alos who have been impeached after leaving ofiice.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:22 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
From the Queens Daily Eagle: Queens man impeached — again



Local press is the best.
Trump has become the most famous person to come from Queens ..except for Spiderman.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:28 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think there have been a couple of Federal Jusges alos who have been impeached after leaving ofiice.
Also the impeachment process has started. It's like saying you should go free because the statue of limitations for your crime expired while you were awaiting trial but after you were arrested/arraigned/charged whatever.

If the Democrats had just sat on their hands doing nothing and tried to impeach Trump 2 years from now then maybe, maybe there could be a valid discussion we could put on the table to at least talk about in regards to impeaching former Presidents. But not now.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:55 AM   #741
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Quote:
There is some historical precedent: The impeachments of Sen. William Blount in 1797 and Secretary of War William Belknap in 1876 both occurred after the men were no longer in office.
Rachel Maddow led off her show last night with a deep dive into the Belknap impeachment.

Worth a watch.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:17 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Rachel Maddow led off her show last night with a deep dive into the Belknap impeachment.

Worth a watch.
That's the Sec of War that resigned right before impeachment to avoid impeachment, right?
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:33 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Blount was expelled by the senate but still held the elected office. Belknap resigned his position to avoid impeachment. Not sure these will serve as precedent or prosecution after the term has expired.they are similar, but not the same.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:48 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
That's the Sec of War that resigned right before impeachment to avoid impeachment, right?
Yep. And it didn’t work, establishing a precedent.

Also included an interesting link with modern times by a distant relative.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:51 AM   #745
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And if I recall Congress had to choose to drop the impeachment against Nixon after he resigned, it didn't like just automatically happen.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:57 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Yep. And it didn’t work, establishing a precedent.
So there's a precedent, but is there a point? Is seeking a conviction worth the effort?


For my part, I wish the Senate would convene this afternoon, rush through some rule changes to allow a vote on conviction without needing the usual trappings of a trial, and actually vote him out, even with only a week left in office. However, that isn't going to happen, so is there a point in convicting him after his term ends? Seems like posturing to me. That's not horrible. Posturing isn't always a bad thing. It's just not something, at least in this case, that I can get all that excited about.
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Old 14th January 2021, 08:05 AM   #747
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Trump reportedly "moped alone in 'self-pity mode'" while the impeachment was going on

That article links to something that has no doubt already been discussed in this thread, but which I'll post anyway just in case: McConnell is reportedly seriously considering convicting Trump in the Senate
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Old 14th January 2021, 08:08 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So there's a precedent, but is there a point? Is seeking a conviction worth the effort?
I think so.

Unlike last time, the Democrats can conduct a real trial with real evidence and testimony. Subpoena Giuliani and ask him what he meant by suggesting a “Trial by Combat”. Or who came up with the letter below and if the President ever approved of or made a speech trying to recruit a Trump Army for “fighting off the Liberal MOB”. Even asking what the camo color scheme was supposed to invoke.



It might just end up being a “Show Trial”, but I think both we as a people, and history, would benefit from the show. I know I would.

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Old 14th January 2021, 08:12 AM   #749
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And like I said the last impeachment was too much political skullduggery involving things done for political gain which, sadly, far too many Americans have resigned themselves to the idea that "all politicians do it" so there was less emotional "oomph" from proving that Trump did it.

This is... not that.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:27 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think so.

Unlike last time, the Democrats can conduct a real trial with real evidence and testimony. Subpoena Giuliani and ask him what he meant by suggesting a “Trial by Combat”. Or who came up with the letter below and if the President ever approved of or made a speech trying to recruit a Trump Army for “fighting off the Liberal MOB”. Even asking what the camo color scheme was supposed to invoke.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c7d4ed8918.jpg

It might just end up being a “Show Trial”, but I think both we as a people, and history, would benefit from the show. I know I would.
Members of the Trump Army should be required to wear horns and face paint. Kind of like the KISS Army.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:35 AM   #751
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Good God, I really ******* hate Republicans.
I hate 90% of them. And I someone who has voted Republican, and am probably a moderate conservative on many iseues.

This is a sentiment I can get behind. (See my sig.)

But the circumstances are different now. At this juncture, having watched what Repugnicans have been willing to do and say over the past several years, and especially the past several months, what they have been willing to tolerate, much less condone, I have to take the default position that anyone who is willing to voluntarily assume membership in that group, to accept that label, is a vile, sexist, racist bigot. A sociopath with no sense of guilt, no ability to empathize, no redeemable human qualities whatsoever. Completely untrustworthy, duplicitous, reprehensible.

I' not sure what one of them could do to regain any foothold on respect, or even forgiveness, but it would have to be pretty impressive.

As far as I'm concerned the Republican brand has become little different from a swastika. If someone is willing to wear it then they get all the baggage it comes with.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:39 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but I do not believe that you are entirely correct.

While you are correct in what the US Constitution has to say about '2/3 of the Senators present'.

But it is my understanding that according to the rules of the Senate, that unless a senator has some terribly important reason for being absent, then all 100 of the senators must be present when the Senate is going through a Presidential impeachment trial.

As such, it will take at least 67 senators to convict Trump.

Judging by the sort of statements made and positions taken by Repugnican senators over the recent past, they could claim they have and urgent appointment to wash their cat, and not so much as crack a smile.

On the outrageous or implausible scale they have already established it wouldn't even nudge the needle.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:43 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
232 Congressmen voted to Impeach Trump for a second time. Sadly 197 Republicans said nay. 5 Congressmen abstained.

I congratulate the 10 Republicans who voted for the Impeachment. Showing at least some real integrity.

What was very pathetic was the "arguments" put forth to excuse not voting for Impeachment. Whatever!!

There was one, which seemed to be a talking point of sorts since it was used by so many of them, that fascinated me because it seemed to depend on the general lack of understanding of just what impeachment meant.

They complained that the impeachment was flawed because there had been no trial. I'm sorry none of the Dems bothered to point out that impeachment was the step taken so that there could be a trial.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:44 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Trump has become the most famous person to come from Queens ..except for Spiderman.

Don't forget Fran Fine.
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Old 14th January 2021, 09:46 AM   #755
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So there's a precedent, but is there a point? Is seeking a conviction worth the effort?


For my part, I wish the Senate would convene this afternoon, rush through some rule changes to allow a vote on conviction without needing the usual trappings of a trial, and actually vote him out, even with only a week left in office. However, that isn't going to happen, so is there a point in convicting him after his term ends? Seems like posturing to me. That's not horrible. Posturing isn't always a bad thing. It's just not something, at least in this case, that I can get all that excited about.

A successful conviction would allow them to ban him from holding public office again.

That alone would be worth it.
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:25 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Judging by the sort of statements made and positions taken by Repugnican senators over the recent past, they could claim they have and urgent appointment to wash their cat, and not so much as crack a smile.

On the outrageous or implausible scale they have already established it wouldn't even nudge the needle.
And that's why, in this day and age (a 19th century expression), a rule change mandating real-time remote participation in debates of this gravity is necessary. God he knoweth it's feasible. Senator Grabpussy (R Woebegin) might orate sitting on his curile toilet and it wouldn't matter -- and it sure'n hell wouldn't let him hide from his stern duty.

"Hullo? Missus Senate Pres'dint? I cain't raise a signal out here in Gutpile. Reckon I won't be a votin' this time around."

"Fax your vote in, you clod!"

"Uh. Wull, I think the snow's jest 'bout to bury the phone pole, 'n --"

"Or forget next year's pork train for your godforsaken state."

"Aye! Nay! Swear me in! Cuss me out if yuh wanter! Anythang you say, Missus Senate Prez Ma'am Sir! (Scuse me while I shift m' quid. Dang near swallered it.)"


And so on at any length.
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:39 AM   #757
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
And that's why, in this day and age (a 19th century expression), a rule change mandating real-time remote participation in debates of this gravity is necessary. God he knoweth it's feasible. Senator Grabpussy (R Woebegin) might orate sitting on his curile toilet and it wouldn't matter -- and it sure'n hell wouldn't let him hide from his stern duty.



"Hullo? Missus Senate Pres'dint? I cain't raise a signal out here in Gutpile. Reckon I won't be a votin' this time around."



"Fax your vote in, you clod!"



"Uh. Wull, I think the snow's jest 'bout to bury the phone pole, 'n --"



"Or forget next year's pork train for your godforsaken state."



"Aye! Nay! Swear me in! Cuss me out if yuh wanter! Anythang you say, Missus Senate Prez Ma'am Sir! (Scuse me while I shift m' quid. Dang near swallered it.)"





And so on at any length.
Or, as we saw yesterday, H. Res. 8 allows a member to report in votes from colleagues not in the chamber.
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:59 AM   #758
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think so.

Unlike last time, the Democrats can conduct a real trial with real evidence and testimony. Subpoena Giuliani and ask him what he meant by suggesting a “Trial by Combat”. Or who came up with the letter below and if the President ever approved of or made a speech trying to recruit a Trump Army for “fighting off the Liberal MOB”. Even asking what the camo color scheme was supposed to invoke.



It might just end up being a “Show Trial”, but I think both we as a people, and history, would benefit from the show. I know I would.
Yup

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And like I said the last impeachment was too much political skullduggery involving things done for political gain which, sadly, far too many Americans have resigned themselves to the idea that "all politicians do it" so there was less emotional "oomph" from proving that Trump did it.

This is... not that.
Exactly - it's the first step in determining the truth. And a *proper* impeachment that looks at evidence (Yes Mitch) is needed. In fact for the travesty of the Ukraine call too.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There was one, which seemed to be a talking point of sorts since it was used by so many of them, that fascinated me because it seemed to depend on the general lack of understanding of just what impeachment meant.

They complained that the impeachment was flawed because there had been no trial. I'm sorry none of the Dems bothered to point out that impeachment was the step taken so that there could be a trial.
Exactly
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:25 AM   #759
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think so.

Unlike last time, the Democrats can conduct a real trial with real evidence and testimony. Subpoena Giuliani and ask him what he meant by suggesting a “Trial by Combat”. Or who came up with the letter below and if the President ever approved of or made a speech trying to recruit a Trump Army for “fighting off the Liberal MOB”. Even asking what the camo color scheme was supposed to invoke.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c7d4ed8918.jpg

It might just end up being a “Show Trial”, but I think both we as a people, and history, would benefit from the show. I know I would.
Are you sure that is real?
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:31 AM   #760
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Huh. I just noticed that the votes for impeachment numbered 232. Same as Trump's Electoral votes, 232.
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