[Continuation] Trump’s Coup - Part 2 - Page 37

Beelzebuddy · 19th January 2021, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

People have honestly started to buy into the mythology of the "I didn't say that using those exact words, therefore unless you respond to nothing but the exact words you're somehow doing something wrong.

Again inference is a thing. People are allowed to pick up for tone and context. I'll never understand when internet argumentatives up and decided that was something you could do.

That's always been the case, especially here. I can't count the arguments I've lost interest in when someone starts clutching their pearls and yelling "I did NOT say that, don't you DARE put words in my mouth!" There's just no way to salvage the conversation afterward.

JoeMorgue · 19th January 2021, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

That's always been the case, especially here. I can't count the arguments I've lost interest in when someone starts clutching their pearls and yelling "I did NOT say that, don't you DARE put words in my mouth!" There's just no way to salvage the conversation afterward.

Yep. It's the same act, every time.

Tom: "2+2, 1+3, 8-4, 2 squared, 2 x 2, the square root of 16..."
Dave: (Responds to Tom as if he said 'Four')
Tom: "I NEVER SAID FOUR! SHOW ME WHERE I SAID FOUR! DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!"

TheGoldcountry · 19th January 2021, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Exactly. Some Republicans will vote R just because they want lower taxes, are anti-immigrant, pro-gun rights and/or anti-abortion. But SOME are just plain stupid. We see it when they open their mouths and say stupid things like some of the things I posted earlier and what we saw in that video and others.

I know this is true, at least in my limited experience, as my community is full of them. The Republicans I deal with (including most of my family) think Trump is a clown, but leading up to the election, went "but look at the ALTERNATIVE!" as though Biden was Emperor Palpatine.

I'm convinced that the current wave of Republicans are riding high on successfully demonizing immigrants and minorities to white lunkheads who consistently vote against their own self-interests just to "stick it to the Commie libruls." Considering the demographics of this country will soon be evenly white/non-white, this situation is only going to get worse.

ETA:Also, I can remember the "liberals are going to take away our guns" BS as far back as I can remember, and since I'm almost fifty, I can't help but laugh at people who still say it with a straight face. Exactly when is this going to happen? When the NRA is pushing protections for fusion powered plasma rifles?

varwoche · 19th January 2021, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

They are not just one thing. This "they are just a bunch of dumb hicks" narrative diminishes them and it is, for that reason, extremely dangerous. If they are just a bunch of dumb hicks we don't have to do anything about them.

Blame Tom Lehrer

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

And Mel Brooks

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

dudalb · 19th January 2021, 11:09 AM

RE Dumb Hicks: You can be dumb but still be dangerous.
TO use a line from the Classic WW2 Fllm "Stalag 17":
"Just because the Germans are dumb does not mean they are stupid:,

dudalb · 19th January 2021, 11:11 AM

One of the leaders of the Oath Keepers has been arrested on charges connectee with the Insurrection

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...rges/index.htm

Delvo · 19th January 2021, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Pacal

Truly we are seeing here two versions of reality.

Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

You said two groups are same when they are not same. Now you are denying that.

That would be true if having one thing in common meant having everything else in common too. But you already know it doesn't.

HHellpop · 19th January 2021, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

One of the leaders of the Oath Keepers has been arrested on charges connectee with the Insurrection

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...rges/index.htm

Borken link fixed:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...l-riot-charges

ETA:Fascinating background for an FBI Special Agent:

Quote:

I have a Ph.D in bio-organic chemistry, and have also received training and gained experience in a variety of criminal laws and procedures, including those involving drug distribution, white collar crime, and crimes of violence.

http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/0..._complaint.pdf

Stacyhs · 19th January 2021, 01:14 PM

Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie.

Paul2 · 19th January 2021, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie.

In other news, the sun rose in the east today.

JoeMorgue · 19th January 2021, 01:58 PM

I'm reminded of the Onion Headline "American Communist Party 99% FBI Infiltrators."

Or the Far Side Cartoon where it's a bunch of wolves wearing sheeps costumes on a field "What a minute? Is anyone here a real sheep?"

dudalb · 19th January 2021, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by HHellpop

Borken link fixed:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...l-riot-charges

ETA:Fascinating background for an FBI Special Agent:

http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/0..._complaint.pdf

Actually, Organic Chemistry is VERY importnat in Forensic science.
I ownder if he has hired for the FBI's labs (among the best in the world for forensics) and tranferred to be a special agent.

Minoosh · 19th January 2021, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by HHellpop

Borken link fixed:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...l-riot-charges

Is that a typo, or a neologism?

Stacyhs · 19th January 2021, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
I guess it's all in how you interpret 'stupid'. I've known a couple people who had average IQ's but, lordy lordy, they were stooooopid. They had no common sense, were illogical and made the same mistakes over and over again. They just never learned. I had to cut ties with one of them because I became so frustrated over watching her make the same stupid mistakes over and over again that I just couldn't take it anymore.

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I won’t stoop to “Argumentum Ad Dictionarium”, but it sure seems like you’re attempting to redefine “stupid” to mean someone who “makes mistakes” - in your example makes life choices you disagree with.

Since you have absolutely no idea what mistakes this person was repeatedly making and failing to ever learn from, your post is presumptuous.

Quote:

It further seems like if I came up with a study showing the Capitol rioters were in fact of above average intelligence, you’d reply they were stupid regardless. As such, I don’t see any point in discussing it further.

But that's not what you did, is it? You presented an article that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Your nose is just out of joint because I pointed that out so now you're coming up with some hypothetical situation and guessing what you think I'd reply. And then, you attempt to cut off further discussion based on the lack of merit of that imagined reply. That takes some chutzpah.

HHellpop · 19th January 2021, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Is that a typo, or a neologism?

The latter.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=borken

Stacyhs · 19th January 2021, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Paul2

In other news, the sun rose in the east today.

And we're supposed to believe both sides are equally credible.

HHellpop · 19th January 2021, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Actually, Organic Chemistry is VERY importnat in Forensic science.
I ownder if he has hired for the FBI's labs (among the best in the world for forensics) and tranferred to be a special agent.

Ah, that makes sense. I can't imagine someone going to school for all that time, and then saying, "Well, that was fun, what next? I know, I'll apply to the FBI!"

Minoosh · 19th January 2021, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie.

Yet the participants that have received a little media coverage are all MAGA faithful - aren't they? Do the Fox personalities ever point out anyone with an antifa background?

I would like to think there were infiltrators all around. For example, I really hope federal law enforcement teams do have people reporting from the inside. Though I know that fairly often the cops have right-wing sympathies, I like to think that they would show some loyalty if it turns out that fellow officers are being killed in rightwing melees.

HHellpop · 19th January 2021, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Yet the participants that have received a little media coverage are all MAGA faithful - aren't they? Do the Fox personalities ever point out anyone with an antifa background?

I would like to think there were infiltrators all around. For example, I really hope federal law enforcement teams do have people reporting from the inside. Though I know that fairly often the cops have right-wing sympathies, I like to think that they would show some loyalty if it turns out that fellow officers are being killed in rightwing melees.

I have read a few articles that say that the "blue wall of silence" has cracked quite a bit since Jan 6. There are officers reporting other officers for their participation in the attack on the Capitol.

Ladewig · 19th January 2021, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pacal

Truly we are seeing here two versions of reality.

Originally Posted by Delvo

Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do.

.

Yes and no.

I say yes because I frequently tell posters on other boards, if two groups have completely different values then they will look at a single issue and come up with completely different ideas of what to do. So, yes. The other side’s brains are not inherently flawed.

On the other hand, we saw seven (?) different US intelligence and law enforcement agencies (and a bunch of European intelligence agencies) say Russia interfered in 2016 and Trump said no, they are all wrong - I looked Putin in the eye and he says Russia wasn’t involved. If Trump says, “I’m right and everybody else is wrong - they are all conspiring against me. Believe only what I say and believe nothing you read in newspapers,” then folks who say, “OK. I’m on board with you President Trump” are making a pretty big error in thinking.

If one holds a belief in a CT and to avoid re-examining one’s conclusions one gets to the point that one has to accept that Republican governors, secretaries of state, attorneys general, hundreds of Republican poll workers, the DOJ, the FBI, VP Pence, and a significant percentage of the judicial branch all conspired to ensure Trump’s votes were switched while all down-ticket races were reported accurately, then, it is hard to accept that one’s thinking is reliable or correct.

Minoosh · 19th January 2021, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do.

Not that I like it when the left wing lies, but as far as I can tell, it is more common on the right. Plus, if mainstream media gets it wrong, IMO they are more willing to admit it than outlets on the right. The right will do it if absolutely necessary, as they apparently concluded in various claims involving Dominion voting machines.

I don't get into many detailed conversations with Trump supporters, as the ones I am most likely to run across are in my own family and I'm not prepared to cut ties. But one example, a lady who lives on campus was absolutely convinced Biden was senile because he tripped up some words and made a reference to himself being "Joe Biden's wife" when he meant to say "Jill Biden's husband." But no amount of sheer gobbledygook on Trump's part makes any impression whatsoever. Joe Biden supposedly has corrupt ties to China, but the Trump family's potentially corrupt ties to China are never questioned.

Spektator · 19th January 2021, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

(snip) Joe Biden supposedly has corrupt ties to China, but the Trump family's potentially corrupt ties to China are never questioned.

I have a feeling that may well change. Someday a scholar is going to examine the Trump Administration as a case study in psychological projection.

Paul2 · 19th January 2021, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

And we're supposed to believe both sides are equally credible.

2 sides = 1 side + 1 side

1 = 1

Therefore, both sides are equal.

/s

Meadmaker · 19th January 2021, 03:01 PM

Not sure which thread to post this in, but this seems as good as any of the other Trump-related threads.

I heard Sean Hannity on the radio today. He was calling for Mitch McConnell to be dumped as Minority Leader after Mitch's distancing from Trump, specifically his recent statements that actually suggested Donald Trump himself may have been part of the problem that led to the Capitol riot.

ETA: Also heard a guest speaker (didn't catch who it was) saying Trump would likely start a SuperPac. Sounds like a good way to soak the donors some more. Must get that reasonable and customary salary paid to the managers of those things, ya know.

HHellpop · 19th January 2021, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Not that I like it when the left wing lies, but as far as I can tell, it is more common on the right. Plus, if mainstream media gets it wrong, IMO they are more willing to admit it than outlets on the right. The right will do it if absolutely necessary, as they apparently concluded in various claims involving Dominion voting machines.

I don't get into many detailed conversations with Trump supporters, as the ones I am most likely to run across are in my own family and I'm not prepared to cut ties. But one example, a lady who lives on campus was absolutely convinced Biden was senile because he tripped up some words and made a reference to himself being "Joe Biden's wife" when he meant to say "Jill Biden's husband." But no amount of sheer gobbledygook on Trump's part makes any impression whatsoever. Joe Biden supposedly has corrupt ties to China, but the Trump family's potentially corrupt ties to China are never questioned.

Off topic, but it seems to me that Biden has aged rather significantly within the last year. Not that I believe he's senile, but I do wonder if he'll make it through the full term.

ETA: OK, maybe I should have done some research before posting. My uneducated impression seems to be wrong, according to this report: Projected lifespan and healthspan of Joe Biden and Donald Trump before the 2020 election

Pacal · 19th January 2021, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do.

Delvo since you have a very low opinion of people who are on my "side", whatever that really means, and you allege that such people are distorters, liars etc. Your above comment is disgusting.

Minoosh · 19th January 2021, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by HHellpop

Off topic, but it seems to me that Biden has aged rather significantly within the last year. Not that I believe he's senile, but I do wonder if he'll make it through the full term.

ETA: OK, maybe I should have done some research before posting. My uneducated impression seems to be wrong, according to this report: Projected lifespan and healthspan of Joe Biden and Donald Trump before the 2020 election

Joe's leaner, probably has a few more years on him. The campaign was exhausting, but Biden hasn't been expending all his energy being a ******** and scheming against US interests 24/7 like Trump has. Getting all that out of the way will be a relief. A lot of people want Joe to succeed and that's bound to help.

Minoosh · 19th January 2021, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Spektator

I have a feeling that may well change. Someday a scholar is going to examine the Trump Administration as a case study in psychological projection.

Oh of course. Everything he accuses other people of doing, he's doing himself, probably on a grander scale.

Bob001 · 19th January 2021, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by HHellpop

Off topic, but it seems to me that Biden has aged rather significantly within the last year. Not that I believe he's senile, but I do wonder if he'll make it through the full term.
....

Might be that we are seeing him in more varied circumstances, rather than the controlled conditions of a largely indoor campaign. But he doesn't have to run marathons; all he has to do is appoint competent people and get out of their way, and he seems to be doing that pretty effectively.

Delphic Oracle · 19th January 2021, 09:36 PM

There were several times in history where an old man who was probably going to die soon was absolutely the best and most stabilizing choice.

I wouldn't call Biden dying mid-term "best and most stabilizing" but whatever of his term he fills, it is the introduction of a pause that matters.

I expect if he makes it, he will not run for a 2nd term. He's here to fill time, ideally for Kamala, but (up to) 4 years of "sleepy joe" could turn the temperature down.

Contrarily, status quo doldrums could recreate the conditions for another Trump.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th January 2021, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie.

It's a coordinated shift.

They've been claiming the election was stolen when clearly it wasn't. So IMO this is a planned shift, planned as in they are getting messages from whoever replaced Roger Ailes.

The attempt to change the election outcome was Trump leading the way because he's so great yada yada. But now the riot is clearly getting a seriously negative reaction. So now it's not Trump, it was AntiFa.

What I'm wondering is how are the rioters taking that messaging when during the whole bloody thing they were ecstatic at what they had accomplished. They might be having a rude awakening as more arrests are made but still in some of those videos they're outright giddy with their success getting into the building. Now Fox is telling them it wasn't their accomplishment after all. That has to be a burn for them.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th January 2021, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Yet the participants that have received a little media coverage are all MAGA faithful - aren't they? Do the Fox personalities ever point out anyone with an antifa background?

Nope, not a one. They are as illusive as all that evidence of fraudulent votes.

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I would like to think there were infiltrators all around. For example, I really hope federal law enforcement teams do have people reporting from the inside. Though I know that fairly often the cops have right-wing sympathies, I like to think that they would show some loyalty if it turns out that fellow officers are being killed in rightwing melees.

Occupations like cops and firefighters spend a lot of time with each other. They know who are Trump supporters in that they voted for him, but they also know who are the extremists among them. That can't be going over too well given the mob attacked and injured so many of them.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th January 2021, 04:47 AM

You guys do know lots of people are mentally competent well into their 90s, right?

Dave Rogers · 20th January 2021, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What I'm wondering is how are the rioters taking that messaging when during the whole bloody thing they were ecstatic at what they had accomplished. They might be having a rude awakening as more arrests are made but still in some of those videos they're outright giddy with their success getting into the building. Now Fox is telling them it wasn't their accomplishment after all. That has to be a burn for them.

Who knows, it might even lead some of them to think that they can't just uncritically accept everything their preferred media outlet tells them. Or is that just too much to hope for?

Dave

TragicMonkey · 20th January 2021, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You guys do know lots of people are mentally competent well into their 90s, right?

And lots of people are never mentally competent. Humanity is a beautiful rainbow of varying degrees of mental competence! #ThinkPinkOrNotAtAll

gnome · 20th January 2021, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

RE Dumb Hicks: You can be dumb but still be dangerous.
TO use a line from the Classic WW2 Fllm "Stalag 17":
"Just because the Germans are dumb does not mean they are stupid:,

One I remembered from "Casablanca":

Major Strasser: "You give him credit for too much cleverness. My impression was that he's just another blundering American."

Captain Renault: "We mustn't underestimate American blundering. I was with them when they blundered into Berlin in 1918."

Meadmaker · 21st January 2021, 12:44 AM

This thread was born of fear that Trump would find a way to illegally maintain power, via corrupt judges or some other illegal mechanism.

I think we can safely dismiss that possibility now, so I think it's time to unsubscribe from this particular thread.

catsmate · 21st January 2021, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

There were several times in history where an old man who was probably going to die soon was absolutely the best and most stabilizing choice.

Sigh. As has been pointed out Biden is not "probably going to die soon" and has a >90% chance of living for more than four years, unlike Trump.
He could probably manage a second term too.

Norman Alexander · 21st January 2021, 02:57 AM

The Boogaloo seems to be a little late in starting...

Ladewig · 21st January 2021, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

This thread was born of fear that Trump would find a way to illegally maintain power, via corrupt judges or some other illegal mechanism.

I think we can safely dismiss that possibility now, so I think it's time to unsubscribe from this particular thread.

I think over the next few months, more will be revealed about his behind-the-scenes coup planning.

19th January 2021, 08:09 AM	#1441
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,065	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue People have honestly started to buy into the mythology of the "I didn't say that using those exact words, therefore unless you respond to nothing but the exact words you're somehow doing something wrong. Again inference is a thing. People are allowed to pick up for tone and context. I'll never understand when internet argumentatives up and decided that was something you could do. That's always been the case, especially here. I can't count the arguments I've lost interest in when someone starts clutching their pearls and yelling "I did NOT say that, don't you DARE put words in my mouth!" There's just no way to salvage the conversation afterward.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,065

19th January 2021, 08:14 AM	#1442
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,607	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy That's always been the case, especially here. I can't count the arguments I've lost interest in when someone starts clutching their pearls and yelling "I did NOT say that, don't you DARE put words in my mouth!" There's just no way to salvage the conversation afterward. Yep. It's the same act, every time. Tom: "2+2, 1+3, 8-4, 2 squared, 2 x 2, the square root of 16..." Dave: (Responds to Tom as if he said 'Four') Tom: "I NEVER SAID FOUR! SHOW ME WHERE I SAID FOUR! DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!"
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

19th January 2021, 08:26 AM	#1443
TheGoldcountry Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 5,891	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Exactly. Some Republicans will vote R just because they want lower taxes, are anti-immigrant, pro-gun rights and/or anti-abortion. But SOME are just plain stupid. We see it when they open their mouths and say stupid things like some of the things I posted earlier and what we saw in that video and others. I know this is true, at least in my limited experience, as my community is full of them. The Republicans I deal with (including most of my family) think Trump is a clown, but leading up to the election, went "but look at the ALTERNATIVE!" as though Biden was Emperor Palpatine. I'm convinced that the current wave of Republicans are riding high on successfully demonizing immigrants and minorities to white lunkheads who consistently vote against their own self-interests just to "stick it to the Commie libruls." Considering the demographics of this country will soon be evenly white/non-white, this situation is only going to get worse. ETA:Also, I can remember the "liberals are going to take away our guns" BS as far back as I can remember, and since I'm almost fifty, I can't help but laugh at people who still say it with a straight face. Exactly when is this going to happen? When the NRA is pushing protections for fusion powered plasma rifles?
	__________________ I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505 Last edited by TheGoldcountry; 19th January 2021 at 08:35 AM.

19th January 2021, 11:09 AM	#1445
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	RE Dumb Hicks: You can be dumb but still be dangerous. TO use a line from the Classic WW2 Fllm "Stalag 17": "Just because the Germans are dumb does not mean they are stupid:,
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

19th January 2021, 11:11 AM	#1446
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	One of the leaders of the Oath Keepers has been arrested on charges connectee with the Insurrection https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...rges/index.htm
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

19th January 2021, 11:17 AM	#1447
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,288	Originally Posted by Pacal Truly we are seeing here two versions of reality. Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do. Originally Posted by Mader Levap You said two groups are same when they are not same. Now you are denying that. That would be true if having one thing in common meant having everything else in common too. But you already know it doesn't.

19th January 2021, 12:48 PM	#1448
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by dudalb One of the leaders of the Oath Keepers has been arrested on charges connectee with the Insurrection https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...rges/index.htm Borken link fixed: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...l-riot-charges ETA:Fascinating background for an FBI Special Agent: Quote: I have a Ph.D in bio-organic chemistry, and have also received training and gained experience in a variety of criminal laws and procedures, including those involving drug distribution, white collar crime, and crimes of violence. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/0..._complaint.pdf
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow Last edited by HHellpop; 19th January 2021 at 12:55 PM.

19th January 2021, 01:14 PM	#1449
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,990	Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie.

19th January 2021, 01:52 PM	#1450
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie. In other news, the sun rose in the east today.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

19th January 2021, 01:58 PM	#1451
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,607	I'm reminded of the Onion Headline "American Communist Party 99% FBI Infiltrators." Or the Far Side Cartoon where it's a bunch of wolves wearing sheeps costumes on a field "What a minute? Is anyone here a real sheep?"
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

19th January 2021, 02:12 PM	#1452
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	Originally Posted by HHellpop Borken link fixed: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...l-riot-charges ETA:Fascinating background for an FBI Special Agent: http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/0..._complaint.pdf Actually, Organic Chemistry is VERY importnat in Forensic science. I ownder if he has hired for the FBI's labs (among the best in the world for forensics) and tranferred to be a special agent.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

19th January 2021, 02:18 PM	#1453
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,237	Originally Posted by HHellpop Borken link fixed: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/polit...l-riot-charges Is that a typo, or a neologism?

19th January 2021, 02:21 PM	#1454
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,990	Quote: Originally Posted by Stacyhs I guess it's all in how you interpret 'stupid'. I've known a couple people who had average IQ's but, lordy lordy, they were stooooopid. They had no common sense, were illogical and made the same mistakes over and over again. They just never learned. I had to cut ties with one of them because I became so frustrated over watching her make the same stupid mistakes over and over again that I just couldn't take it anymore. Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B I won’t stoop to “Argumentum Ad Dictionarium”, but it sure seems like you’re attempting to redefine “stupid” to mean someone who “makes mistakes” - in your example makes life choices you disagree with. Since you have absolutely no idea what mistakes this person was repeatedly making and failing to ever learn from, your post is presumptuous. Quote: It further seems like if I came up with a study showing the Capitol rioters were in fact of above average intelligence, you’d reply they were stupid regardless. As such, I don’t see any point in discussing it further. But that's not what you did, is it? You presented an article that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Your nose is just out of joint because I pointed that out so now you're coming up with some hypothetical situation and guessing what you think I'd reply. And then, you attempt to cut off further discussion based on the lack of merit of that imagined reply. That takes some chutzpah.

19th January 2021, 02:22 PM	#1455
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by Minoosh Is that a typo, or a neologism? The latter. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=borken
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow

19th January 2021, 02:23 PM	#1456
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,990	Originally Posted by Paul2 In other news, the sun rose in the east today. And we're supposed to believe both sides are equally credible.

19th January 2021, 02:25 PM	#1457
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by dudalb Actually, Organic Chemistry is VERY importnat in Forensic science. I ownder if he has hired for the FBI's labs (among the best in the world for forensics) and tranferred to be a special agent. Ah, that makes sense. I can't imagine someone going to school for all that time, and then saying, "Well, that was fun, what next? I know, I'll apply to the FBI!"
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow

19th January 2021, 02:27 PM	#1458
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,237	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie. Yet the participants that have received a little media coverage are all MAGA faithful - aren't they? Do the Fox personalities ever point out anyone with an antifa background? I would like to think there were infiltrators all around. For example, I really hope federal law enforcement teams do have people reporting from the inside. Though I know that fairly often the cops have right-wing sympathies, I like to think that they would show some loyalty if it turns out that fellow officers are being killed in rightwing melees.

19th January 2021, 02:31 PM	#1459
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by Minoosh Yet the participants that have received a little media coverage are all MAGA faithful - aren't they? Do the Fox personalities ever point out anyone with an antifa background? I would like to think there were infiltrators all around. For example, I really hope federal law enforcement teams do have people reporting from the inside. Though I know that fairly often the cops have right-wing sympathies, I like to think that they would show some loyalty if it turns out that fellow officers are being killed in rightwing melees. I have read a few articles that say that the "blue wall of silence" has cracked quite a bit since Jan 6. There are officers reporting other officers for their participation in the attack on the Capitol.
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow

19th January 2021, 02:36 PM	#1460
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,036	Originally Posted by Pacal Truly we are seeing here two versions of reality. Originally Posted by Delvo Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do. . Yes and no. I say yes because I frequently tell posters on other boards, if two groups have completely different values then they will look at a single issue and come up with completely different ideas of what to do. So, yes. The other side’s brains are not inherently flawed. On the other hand, we saw seven (?) different US intelligence and law enforcement agencies (and a bunch of European intelligence agencies) say Russia interfered in 2016 and Trump said no, they are all wrong - I looked Putin in the eye and he says Russia wasn’t involved. If Trump says, “I’m right and everybody else is wrong - they are all conspiring against me. Believe only what I say and believe nothing you read in newspapers,” then folks who say, “OK. I’m on board with you President Trump” are making a pretty big error in thinking. If one holds a belief in a CT and to avoid re-examining one’s conclusions one gets to the point that one has to accept that Republican governors, secretaries of state, attorneys general, hundreds of Republican poll workers, the DOJ, the FBI, VP Pence, and a significant percentage of the judicial branch all conspired to ensure Trump’s votes were switched while all down-ticket races were reported accurately, then, it is hard to accept that one’s thinking is reliable or correct.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

19th January 2021, 02:43 PM	#1461
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,237	Originally Posted by Delvo Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do. Not that I like it when the left wing lies, but as far as I can tell, it is more common on the right. Plus, if mainstream media gets it wrong, IMO they are more willing to admit it than outlets on the right. The right will do it if absolutely necessary, as they apparently concluded in various claims involving Dominion voting machines. I don't get into many detailed conversations with Trump supporters, as the ones I am most likely to run across are in my own family and I'm not prepared to cut ties. But one example, a lady who lives on campus was absolutely convinced Biden was senile because he tripped up some words and made a reference to himself being "Joe Biden's wife" when he meant to say "Jill Biden's husband." But no amount of sheer gobbledygook on Trump's part makes any impression whatsoever. Joe Biden supposedly has corrupt ties to China, but the Trump family's potentially corrupt ties to China are never questioned.

19th January 2021, 02:51 PM	#1462
Spektator Watching . . . always watching. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 1,937	Originally Posted by Minoosh (snip) Joe Biden supposedly has corrupt ties to China, but the Trump family's potentially corrupt ties to China are never questioned. I have a feeling that may well change. Someday a scholar is going to examine the Trump Administration as a case study in psychological projection.

19th January 2021, 02:54 PM	#1463
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	Originally Posted by Stacyhs And we're supposed to believe both sides are equally credible. 2 sides = 1 side + 1 side 1 = 1 Therefore, both sides are equal. /s
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

19th January 2021, 03:01 PM	#1464
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,217	Not sure which thread to post this in, but this seems as good as any of the other Trump-related threads. I heard Sean Hannity on the radio today. He was calling for Mitch McConnell to be dumped as Minority Leader after Mitch's distancing from Trump, specifically his recent statements that actually suggested Donald Trump himself may have been part of the problem that led to the Capitol riot. ETA: Also heard a guest speaker (didn't catch who it was) saying Trump would likely start a SuperPac. Sounds like a good way to soak the donors some more. Must get that reasonable and customary salary paid to the managers of those things, ya know.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information? Last edited by Meadmaker; 19th January 2021 at 03:02 PM.

19th January 2021, 03:07 PM	#1465
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by Minoosh Not that I like it when the left wing lies, but as far as I can tell, it is more common on the right. Plus, if mainstream media gets it wrong, IMO they are more willing to admit it than outlets on the right. The right will do it if absolutely necessary, as they apparently concluded in various claims involving Dominion voting machines. I don't get into many detailed conversations with Trump supporters, as the ones I am most likely to run across are in my own family and I'm not prepared to cut ties. But one example, a lady who lives on campus was absolutely convinced Biden was senile because he tripped up some words and made a reference to himself being "Joe Biden's wife" when he meant to say "Jill Biden's husband." But no amount of sheer gobbledygook on Trump's part makes any impression whatsoever. Joe Biden supposedly has corrupt ties to China, but the Trump family's potentially corrupt ties to China are never questioned. Off topic, but it seems to me that Biden has aged rather significantly within the last year. Not that I believe he's senile, but I do wonder if he'll make it through the full term. ETA: OK, maybe I should have done some research before posting. My uneducated impression seems to be wrong, according to this report: Projected lifespan and healthspan of Joe Biden and Donald Trump before the 2020 election
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow Last edited by HHellpop; 19th January 2021 at 03:25 PM.

19th January 2021, 03:47 PM	#1466
Pacal Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,158	Originally Posted by Delvo Just different parts or aspects of it. The people on the other side are just people, like you. Their brains mostly work the same way as yours so they come to their conclusions the same way people on your side do. Delvo since you have a very low opinion of people who are on my "side", whatever that really means, and you allege that such people are distorters, liars etc. Your above comment is disgusting.

19th January 2021, 06:47 PM	#1467
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,237	Originally Posted by HHellpop Off topic, but it seems to me that Biden has aged rather significantly within the last year. Not that I believe he's senile, but I do wonder if he'll make it through the full term. ETA: OK, maybe I should have done some research before posting. My uneducated impression seems to be wrong, according to this report: Projected lifespan and healthspan of Joe Biden and Donald Trump before the 2020 election Joe's leaner, probably has a few more years on him. The campaign was exhausting, but Biden hasn't been expending all his energy being a ******** and scheming against US interests 24/7 like Trump has. Getting all that out of the way will be a relief. A lot of people want Joe to succeed and that's bound to help.

19th January 2021, 06:54 PM	#1468
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,237	Originally Posted by Spektator I have a feeling that may well change. Someday a scholar is going to examine the Trump Administration as a case study in psychological projection. Oh of course. Everything he accuses other people of doing, he's doing himself, probably on a grander scale.

19th January 2021, 06:58 PM	#1469
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,617	Originally Posted by HHellpop Off topic, but it seems to me that Biden has aged rather significantly within the last year. Not that I believe he's senile, but I do wonder if he'll make it through the full term. .... Might be that we are seeing him in more varied circumstances, rather than the controlled conditions of a largely indoor campaign. But he doesn't have to run marathons; all he has to do is appoint competent people and get out of their way, and he seems to be doing that pretty effectively.

19th January 2021, 09:36 PM	#1470
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,351	There were several times in history where an old man who was probably going to die soon was absolutely the best and most stabilizing choice. I wouldn't call Biden dying mid-term "best and most stabilizing" but whatever of his term he fills, it is the introduction of a pause that matters. I expect if he makes it, he will not run for a 2nd term. He's here to fill time, ideally for Kamala, but (up to) 4 years of "sleepy joe" could turn the temperature down. Contrarily, status quo doldrums could recreate the conditions for another Trump.
	Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 19th January 2021 at 09:38 PM.

20th January 2021, 04:32 AM	#1471
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,861	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Maria Bartiromo claimed again on FOX that there were antifa infiltrators wearing MAGA hats among the Capitol rioters on Jan. 6th. This follows the same claim pushed by Tucker Carlson, Brit Hume and Laura Ingraham. This has been completely debunked by law enforcement officials but still Bartiromo repeats this lie. It's a coordinated shift. They've been claiming the election was stolen when clearly it wasn't. So IMO this is a planned shift, planned as in they are getting messages from whoever replaced Roger Ailes. The attempt to change the election outcome was Trump leading the way because he's so great yada yada. But now the riot is clearly getting a seriously negative reaction. So now it's not Trump, it was AntiFa. What I'm wondering is how are the rioters taking that messaging when during the whole bloody thing they were ecstatic at what they had accomplished. They might be having a rude awakening as more arrests are made but still in some of those videos they're outright giddy with their success getting into the building. Now Fox is telling them it wasn't their accomplishment after all. That has to be a burn for them.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 20th January 2021 at 04:34 AM.

20th January 2021, 04:39 AM	#1472
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,861	Originally Posted by Minoosh Yet the participants that have received a little media coverage are all MAGA faithful - aren't they? Do the Fox personalities ever point out anyone with an antifa background? Nope, not a one. They are as illusive as all that evidence of fraudulent votes. Originally Posted by Minoosh I would like to think there were infiltrators all around. For example, I really hope federal law enforcement teams do have people reporting from the inside. Though I know that fairly often the cops have right-wing sympathies, I like to think that they would show some loyalty if it turns out that fellow officers are being killed in rightwing melees. Occupations like cops and firefighters spend a lot of time with each other. They know who are Trump supporters in that they voted for him, but they also know who are the extremists among them. That can't be going over too well given the mob attacked and injured so many of them.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 20th January 2021 at 04:42 AM.

20th January 2021, 04:47 AM	#1473
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,861	You guys do know lots of people are mentally competent well into their 90s, right?

20th January 2021, 04:52 AM	#1474
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,362	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger What I'm wondering is how are the rioters taking that messaging when during the whole bloody thing they were ecstatic at what they had accomplished. They might be having a rude awakening as more arrests are made but still in some of those videos they're outright giddy with their success getting into the building. Now Fox is telling them it wasn't their accomplishment after all. That has to be a burn for them. Who knows, it might even lead some of them to think that they can't just uncritically accept everything their preferred media outlet tells them. Or is that just too much to hope for? Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

20th January 2021, 06:07 AM	#1475
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,449	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger You guys do know lots of people are mentally competent well into their 90s, right? And lots of people are never mentally competent. Humanity is a beautiful rainbow of varying degrees of mental competence! #ThinkPinkOrNotAtAll
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

20th January 2021, 08:08 AM	#1476
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 11,039	Originally Posted by dudalb RE Dumb Hicks: You can be dumb but still be dangerous. TO use a line from the Classic WW2 Fllm "Stalag 17": "Just because the Germans are dumb does not mean they are stupid:, One I remembered from "Casablanca": Major Strasser: "You give him credit for too much cleverness. My impression was that he's just another blundering American." Captain Renault: "We mustn't underestimate American blundering. I was with them when they blundered into Berlin in 1918."
	__________________