[Continuation] The Trump Presidency: Part 27 - Page 41

Safe-Keeper · 23rd January 2021, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon

The means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole - it's the American Way!

Repeal Obamacare while you're at it, America only needs the ACA.

Steve · 23rd January 2021, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon

The means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole - it's the American Way!

If you go far enough to the right........

trustbutverify · 23rd January 2021, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Go quietly? Are you serious? As foolish as it was he tried to get his lackeys involved in a military takeover of the bloody country.

He left with his tail between his legs

That's different in my book from rationalizing it was the rioters that failed. There is no doubt his mental illness doesn't let him believe he was at fault. He believes, at least superficially, that the election really was stolen from him. He let the people around him tell him that because it is what he wanted to believe.

That's pathological denial, not face saving.

He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election.

dudalb · 23rd January 2021, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon

The means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole - it's the American Way!

yeah, it is funny to see a right winger mouthing pure Marxist doctrine.
Which,k of course, has failed miserably whenever it had been tried.

smartcooky · 23rd January 2021, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

If you go far enough to the right........

Say it quietly...... Horseshoe Theory

Roger Ramjets · 23rd January 2021, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

yeah, it is funny to see a right winger mouthing pure Marxist doctrine.
Which,k of course, has failed miserably whenever it had been tried.

Yes, just like pure capitalist doctrine has failed miserably whenever it had been tried.

Originally Posted by a far right nutcase

"We need to return ownership of these huge corporations to everyday folks, the people who do the work. Its the only way to stop their socialist agenda"

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor

Tommok · 23rd January 2021, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election.

It seems to me rather that he has a blurred understanding of the term "reality" up to a point where he no longer cares what is actually true but rather what he can get people to believe in order to benefit himself.

So the question "did I actually win the election" in his mind is absolutely indistinguishable from "will I stay in power".

It's the same old "But SIR, statement X is not true at all in reality!" - "Oh, a lot of people believe that X is true, I can tell you that!"

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election.

I'm not sure he does. He is so mentally ill that it's quite possible, even probable, that he's convinced himself that the election was truly rigged and that he actually won the election. His NPD would not allow him to believe anything else.

Ladewig · 23rd January 2021, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'm not sure he does. He is so mentally ill that it's quite possible, even probable, that he's convinced himself that the election was truly rigged and that he actually won the election. His NPD would not allow him to believe anything else.

I agree to a point. He thinks that if he, himself, would do something then everyone would do that thing.

On the other hand, when he called Georgia, he didn’t say, “I need you to find out how they rigged it and how many votes they switched.” He said, “ I need you to ‘find’ 18000 votes.”

I think Tommok is closest to having a theory that describes all the evidence.

Originally Posted by Tommok

It seems to me rather that he has a blurred understanding of the term "reality" up to a point where he no longer cares what is actually true but rather what he can get people to believe in order to benefit himself.

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I agree to a point. He thinks that if he, himself, would do something then everyone would do that thing.

On the other hand, when he called Georgia, he didn’t say, “I need you to find out how they rigged it and how many votes they switched.” He said, “ I need you to ‘find’ 18000 votes.”

I think Tommok is closest to having a theory that describes all the evidence.

I think both can be true. He thinks he already knows how they rigged it which he described and then repeated several times in the phone call. "Finding" them simply meant proving it so he could present it in a way that a court would find in his favor.

SezMe · 23rd January 2021, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Link to the Inauguration countdown timer:

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdow...eaves%20office

It's still there with the same text but the counter is counting the time Biden's been in office.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2021, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election.

Sometimes people with a serious delusional pathology can seriously delude themselves.

I know I've had "Trump lost and he knows it" in my sig for a while but I think he fluctuates between actual delusion and knowing he is denying reality.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2021, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'm not sure he does. He is so mentally ill that it's quite possible, even probable, that he's convinced himself that the election was truly rigged and that he actually won the election. His NPD would not allow him to believe anything else.

And when people like Giuliani repeat it to Trump complete with the supposed existence of evidence, I think that reinforces Trump's belief that maybe he did win. After all, he certainly believes it isn't possible he lost.

bruto · 23rd January 2021, 08:10 PM

I am guessing that T**** knows he lost the vote in one sense but since he is also convinced that he could not rightly lose the vote he so clearly deserves, he also believes he won it in another sense - the golden glow of what should be as opposed to the gray lumpy mush of what merely is. It's wrong for such a winner to lose, so the only way to achieve true justice and fairness is to cheat.

Most children, when told that two wrongs don't make a right, see a moral lesson. Some see a problem of arithmetic.

Ladewig · 23rd January 2021, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

I am guessing that T**** knows he lost the vote in one sense but since he is also convinced that he could not rightly lose the vote he so clearly deserves, he also believes he won it in another sense - the golden glow of what should be as opposed to the gray lumpy mush of what merely is. It's wrong for such a winner to lose, so the only way to achieve true justice and fairness is to cheat.

Most children, when told that two wrongs don't make a right, see a moral lesson. Some see a problem of arithmetic.

I can see your point.
Trump regularly said that he deserved more than 4 more years. I think he really expected America to change the law so he could serve a third term (either that or he expected to be named president-for-life).

Aridas · 23rd January 2021, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I can see your point.
Trump regularly said that he deserved more than 4 more years. I think he really expected America to change the law so he could serve a third term (either that or he expected to be named president-for-life).

I don't know about expected, exactly, so much as that he made it perfectly clear that he just wanted his caporegimes to make it happen, in his generally pretty obvious mob boss way. And to be clear, if Republicans would have managed to take over the House and keep the Senate (in 2022, at least), and Trump had won - it's far too much of a safe bet that they would have done exactly that for him.

Athyrio · 23rd January 2021, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

He believes, at least superficially, that the election really was stolen from him.

That man was such a liar, so vile, so un-presidential, that believing that the election was stolen from him is exactly what I want him to take to bed every night, to let his own lying personality eat him from the inside out.

BazBear · 23rd January 2021, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

I don't know about expected, exactly, so much as that he made it perfectly clear that he just wanted his caporegimes to make it happen, in his generally pretty obvious mob boss way. And to be clear, if Republicans would have managed to take over the House and keep the Senate (in 2022, at least), and Trump had won - it's far too much of a safe bet that they would have done exactly that for him.

They might have tried, but just to propose an amendment you need a 2/3 majority vote in both houses, then 3/4 (38) of the states must approve it for ratification. Not likely.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2021, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I can see your point.
Trump regularly said that he deserved more than 4 more years. I think he really expected America to change the law so he could serve a third term (either that or he expected to be named president-for-life).

The ramblings of a sick narcissist, because he was investigated in his first term there should be payback, those years shouldn't count toward the term limits. People owe him.

DevilsAdvocate · 23rd January 2021, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by BazBear

They might have tried, but just to propose an amendment you need a 2/3 majority vote in both houses, then 3/4 (38) of the states must approve it for ratification. Not likely.

Or a Supreme Court that would be willing to rule that the Constitutional provision does not apply in this case for some flimsy reason. Or a Congress, overtaken by Republicans in the midterms after massive gerrymandering is upheld by Trump judicial appointees, passes a law that he can run for a third term and a judicial toady or the Supreme Court decides that the law is not unconstitutional for some flimsy reason. Or for any of the other vague reasons expressed in a massive propaganda campaign and dozens of lawsuits. And pressure and threats from the DOJ to State officials to allow his name on the ballot no mater what the law says. And failing all else, inciting a mob to storm the Capitol to prevent Congress from certifying a new President and declaring himself in charge.

I know that all sounds really crazy, and nothing even close to that would really actually happen, but we can consider what could be possible, you know, theoretically.

DevilsAdvocate · 23rd January 2021, 11:07 PM

And that is one of the reasons Trump should be convicted and prevented from holding office. Imagine if he ran and won in 2024. What would happen over those next 4 years? What would happen in 2028 when he has nothing to lose? It could be 10 times worse than what we saw over the last few months. A successful coup. The end of democracy in America.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 12:18 AM

To give you an idea of how Trump's mind works and how he never, ever takes responsibility for anything he does:

When he bought the Doral Golf Club Resort and was remodeling it, he specifically ordered the cheapest paint Benjamin Moore Company made even though he was told it would not hold up and it was not compatible with the wear and tear of a commercial property. He ordered it anyway. When it started splotch and peel when the maids cleaned the walls he told Benjamin Moore that it was defective and he wanted them to not only reimburse him for the paint but to repaint the entire resort for free with paint two grades up. When the company refused, he threatened to sue them. He threatened that he'd claim the paint was defective (it wasn't) and that the bad publicity alone would cost them millions. The company finally agreed to give Trump credit for 10,000 gallons of level 3 paint in compensation free. This paint was $30 a gallon more than the cheap paint he'd originally purchased. Trump never admitted he'd been cheap and ordered level one paint against the advice of his contractor. In essence, he not only paid for level one paint and got level three, he got credit for much more paint which he could use at any time in the future and he did it by lying and bullying.

Fast Eddie B · 24th January 2021, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

To give you an idea of how Trump's mind works and how he never, ever takes responsibility for anything he does:

When he bought the Doral Golf Club Resort and was remodeling...

That anecdote is covered in Michael Cohen’s book, “Disloyal”.

Which is only one of many. Well worth a read, regardless of what you might think of Michael Cohen.

Darat · 24th January 2021, 06:48 AM

It also misrepresents Trump’s behaviour. It gives the impression that Trump acts in a strategic and rational manner albeit an unethical manner. What actually happens is that Trump wants and other people try to fulfil his wants.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

That anecdote is covered in Michael Cohen’s book, “Disloyal”.

Which is only one of many. Well worth a read, regardless of what you might think of Michael Cohen.

Which is where I read about it. The book is fascinating. Cohen was scum but at least he admits it. He makes few excuses for what he did other than he wanted power, he knew he could get it via Trump, and that, like so many others, he fell under the spell of Trump's celebrity. We cannot deny that he's not the only one who sold his soul to Trump. But he's trying to get it back unlike some we could name: Graham, Jordan, Cruz, etc.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

It also misrepresents Trump’s behaviour. It gives the impression that Trump acts in a strategic and rational manner albeit an unethical manner. What actually happens is that Trump wants and other people try to fulfil his wants.

Are you referring to the paint anecdote? If so, you are correct. I should have written "Cohen" not "He" threatened the lawsuits, etc. because all Trump did was tell Cohen to "take care of it" when the paint started to peel. Cohen was one who acted like the mobster and did all the dirty work ( and he freely admits it) when it came to taking care of problems Trump got himself into which was often. As Cohen said, Trump is not a strategic thinker. He lives in the present and the short term.

acbytesla · 24th January 2021, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

Or a Supreme Court that would be willing to rule that the Constitutional provision does not apply in this case for some flimsy reason. Or a Congress, overtaken by Republicans in the midterms after massive gerrymandering is upheld by Trump judicial appointees, passes a law that he can run for a third term and a judicial toady or the Supreme Court decides that the law is not unconstitutional for some flimsy reason. Or for any of the other vague reasons expressed in a massive propaganda campaign and dozens of lawsuits. And pressure and threats from the DOJ to State officials to allow his name on the ballot no mater what the law says. And failing all else, inciting a mob to storm the Capitol to prevent Congress from certifying a new President and declaring himself in charge.

I know that all sounds really crazy, and nothing even close to that would really actually happen, but we can consider what could be possible, you know, theoretically.

SCOTUS is not going to rule on the constitutionality of the Impeachment. The Constitution is clear. Impeachment is entirely under the jurisdiction of the House and the trial is entirely under the jurisdiction of the Senate. There is also both precedence in the case of Belknap and the words of Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist papers.

dudalb · 24th January 2021, 05:52 PM

I don't deny for a minute that Trump is a con man and a grifter,but it is huge mistake to think all of his actions are part of a grift. that does not explain the many actions he had done that have backfired on him, which he never would have done if the grift was all he had in mind.Trump the Nacissist and Trump the Egomaniac often win out, in Trump's mind, over Trump the Grifter.

arthwollipot · 24th January 2021, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

I would like to write up a comprehensive de-programming guide for Trump cultists. I intend a simple presentation of facts, no snark, no hyperbole, organized into chapters.

If anyone out there wishes to participate, I'll start a thread and make it a community exercise.

It's been very well established by now that the "information deficit" model of skeptical activism doesn't work. You can't change someone's mind simply by showing them true information. That said, I'll be happy to contribute my skills (such as they are - mostly in the area of proofreading and editing) to such an endeavour.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It's been very well established by now that the "information deficit" model of skeptical activism doesn't work. You can't change someone's mind simply by showing them true information. That said, I'll be happy to contribute my skills (such as they are - mostly in the area of proofreading and editing) to such an endeavour.

Absolutely true. People believe what they want to believe. Despite the saying, they do believe they are entitled to their own set of facts.

arthwollipot · 24th January 2021, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Absolutely true. People believe what they want to believe. Despite the saying, they do believe they are entitled to their own set of facts.

In T****'s case, it's even worse. If he suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I think he does, then he is incapable of understanding when he's wrong about something. He is the only important thing in his universe, and whatever comes out of his mouth is - has to be - truthful, because he believes himself to be utterly infallible.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

In T****'s case, it's even worse. If he suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I think he does, then he is incapable of understanding when he's wrong about something. He is the only important thing in his universe, and whatever comes out of his mouth is - has to be - truthful, because he believes himself to be utterly infallible.

No, Trump knows when he's lying. He just doesn't care that he's lying because whatever he does is justifiable. He believes that whatever he says at that moment that benefits him is perfectly OK. He can come to believe his own lies, especially if they are reinforced by others. I think he truly has come to believe the election was rigged and that he actually won.

He absolutely has NPD. There is no doubt about. He more than meets the required criteria in the DSM-V5 despite the claims that he hasn't had an in-person interview by a mental health professional. You might as well claim a skier with a femur sticking out through his skin can't be diagnosed with a broken leg because a doctor hasn't seen him in person yet.

arthwollipot · 24th January 2021, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

No, Trump knows when he's lying. He just doesn't care that he's lying because whatever he does is justifiable. He believes that whatever he says at that moment that benefits him is perfectly OK. He can come to believe his own lies, especially if they are reinforced by others. I think he truly has come to believe the election was rigged and that he actually won.

He absolutely has NPD. There is no doubt about. He more than meets the required criteria in the DSM-V5 despite the claims that he hasn't had an in-person interview by a mental health professional. You might as well claim a skier with a femur sticking out through his skin can't be diagnosed with a broken leg because a doctor hasn't seen him in person yet.

It's very hard to get people with NPD to undertake a voluntary psychiatric evaluation. Since in their minds they are perfect and infallible, the idea that they may be mentally ill is insulting.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It's very hard to get people with NPD to undertake a voluntary psychiatric evaluation. Since in their minds they are perfect and infallible, the idea that they may be mentally ill is insulting.

Exactly! But tell that to those insisting on upholding the Goldwater rule. You might want to take a look at this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=318937

DevilsAdvocate · 24th January 2021, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

SCOTUS is not going to rule on the constitutionality of the Impeachment. The Constitution is clear. Impeachment is entirely under the jurisdiction of the House and the trial is entirely under the jurisdiction of the Senate. There is also both precedence in the case of Belknap and the words of Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist papers.

I was talking about him getting the Supreme Court to rule that the Presidential term limits under the 22nd Amendment do not apply to him for some reason.

Ladewig · 24th January 2021, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It's very hard to get people with NPD to undertake a voluntary psychiatric evaluation. Since in their minds they are perfect and infallible, the idea that they may be mentally ill is insulting.

I would imagine it’d be easy to get Trump to sit down.

Tell him a world-renowned psychiatrist is writing a book about geniuses and he thinks Trump deserves an entire chapter.

ETA
Or tell him that there is a test on which no genius has ever produced a perfect score and then explain that very many preeminent psychologists, the very best ones, think Trump could pass.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I would imagine it’d be easy to get Trump to sit down.

Tell him a world-renowned psychiatrist is writing a book about geniuses and he thinks Trump deserves an entire chapter.

Don't even tell him the interviewer is a psychiatrist. Just get a beautiful blonde woman who thinks he's a genius to interview him.

acbytesla · 24th January 2021, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

I was talking about him getting the Supreme Court to rule that the Presidential term limits under the 22nd Amendment do not apply to him for some reason.

.

Trump never went into any of this with even the slightest understanding of the Constitution and what it means. He's leaving doing the same thing.

Ladewig · 24th January 2021, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Don't even tell him the interviewer is a psychiatrist. Just get a beautiful blonde woman who thinks he's a genius to interview him.

Yep.

(You left out young, but I think you still deserve full points)

Ladewig · 24th January 2021, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

.

Trump never went into any of this with even the slightest understanding of the Constitution and what it means. He's leaving doing the same thing.

He knew nothing when he came in, yet paradoxically, it feels like he knows even less now.

23rd January 2021, 12:15 PM	#1601
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,396	Originally Posted by Dragon The means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole - it's the American Way! Repeal Obamacare while you're at it, America only needs the ACA.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

23rd January 2021, 12:18 PM	#1602
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,709	Originally Posted by Dragon The means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole - it's the American Way! If you go far enough to the right........
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

23rd January 2021, 12:30 PM	#1603
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,895	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Go quietly? Are you serious? As foolish as it was he tried to get his lackeys involved in a military takeover of the bloody country. He left with his tail between his legs That's different in my book from rationalizing it was the rioters that failed. There is no doubt his mental illness doesn't let him believe he was at fault. He believes, at least superficially, that the election really was stolen from him. He let the people around him tell him that because it is what he wanted to believe. That's pathological denial, not face saving. He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

23rd January 2021, 12:41 PM	#1604
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,545	Originally Posted by Dragon The means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole - it's the American Way! yeah, it is funny to see a right winger mouthing pure Marxist doctrine. Which,k of course, has failed miserably whenever it had been tried.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

23rd January 2021, 01:02 PM	#1605
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,189	Originally Posted by Steve If you go far enough to the right........ Say it quietly...... Horseshoe Theory
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

23rd January 2021, 01:14 PM	#1606
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,375	Originally Posted by dudalb yeah, it is funny to see a right winger mouthing pure Marxist doctrine. Which,k of course, has failed miserably whenever it had been tried. Yes, just like pure capitalist doctrine has failed miserably whenever it had been tried. Originally Posted by a far right nutcase "We need to return ownership of these huge corporations to everyday folks, the people who do the work. Its the only way to stop their socialist agenda" Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

23rd January 2021, 01:25 PM	#1607
Tommok Scholar Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 65	Originally Posted by trustbutverify He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election. It seems to me rather that he has a blurred understanding of the term "reality" up to a point where he no longer cares what is actually true but rather what he can get people to believe in order to benefit himself. So the question "did I actually win the election" in his mind is absolutely indistinguishable from "will I stay in power". It's the same old "But SIR, statement X is not true at all in reality!" - "Oh, a lot of people believe that X is true, I can tell you that!"
Tommok Scholar Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 65

23rd January 2021, 02:57 PM	#1608
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	Originally Posted by trustbutverify He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election. I'm not sure he does. He is so mentally ill that it's quite possible, even probable, that he's convinced himself that the election was truly rigged and that he actually won the election. His NPD would not allow him to believe anything else.

23rd January 2021, 05:06 PM	#1609
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,095	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I'm not sure he does. He is so mentally ill that it's quite possible, even probable, that he's convinced himself that the election was truly rigged and that he actually won the election. His NPD would not allow him to believe anything else. I agree to a point. He thinks that if he, himself, would do something then everyone would do that thing. On the other hand, when he called Georgia, he didn’t say, “I need you to find out how they rigged it and how many votes they switched.” He said, “ I need you to ‘find’ 18000 votes.” I think Tommok is closest to having a theory that describes all the evidence. Originally Posted by Tommok It seems to me rather that he has a blurred understanding of the term "reality" up to a point where he no longer cares what is actually true but rather what he can get people to believe in order to benefit himself.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

23rd January 2021, 06:24 PM	#1610
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	Originally Posted by Ladewig I agree to a point. He thinks that if he, himself, would do something then everyone would do that thing. On the other hand, when he called Georgia, he didn’t say, “I need you to find out how they rigged it and how many votes they switched.” He said, “ I need you to ‘find’ 18000 votes.” I think Tommok is closest to having a theory that describes all the evidence. I think both can be true. He thinks he already knows how they rigged it which he described and then repeated several times in the phone call. "Finding" them simply meant proving it so he could present it in a way that a court would find in his favor.

23rd January 2021, 07:07 PM	#1611
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,123	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Link to the Inauguration countdown timer: https://www.timeanddate.com/countdow...eaves%20office It's still there with the same text but the counter is counting the time Biden's been in office.

23rd January 2021, 07:23 PM	#1612
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,829	Originally Posted by trustbutverify He knows 100% he lost the vote. He just doesn't feel that should be what determines the outcome of an election. Sometimes people with a serious delusional pathology can seriously delude themselves. I know I've had "Trump lost and he knows it" in my sig for a while but I think he fluctuates between actual delusion and knowing he is denying reality.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 23rd January 2021 at 07:28 PM.

23rd January 2021, 07:26 PM	#1613
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,829	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I'm not sure he does. He is so mentally ill that it's quite possible, even probable, that he's convinced himself that the election was truly rigged and that he actually won the election. His NPD would not allow him to believe anything else. And when people like Giuliani repeat it to Trump complete with the supposed existence of evidence, I think that reinforces Trump's belief that maybe he did win. After all, he certainly believes it isn't possible he lost.

23rd January 2021, 08:10 PM	#1614
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,221	I am guessing that T**** knows he lost the vote in one sense but since he is also convinced that he could not rightly lose the vote he so clearly deserves, he also believes he won it in another sense - the golden glow of what should be as opposed to the gray lumpy mush of what merely is. It's wrong for such a winner to lose, so the only way to achieve true justice and fairness is to cheat. Most children, when told that two wrongs don't make a right, see a moral lesson. Some see a problem of arithmetic.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

23rd January 2021, 09:47 PM	#1615
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,095	Originally Posted by bruto I am guessing that T**** knows he lost the vote in one sense but since he is also convinced that he could not rightly lose the vote he so clearly deserves, he also believes he won it in another sense - the golden glow of what should be as opposed to the gray lumpy mush of what merely is. It's wrong for such a winner to lose, so the only way to achieve true justice and fairness is to cheat. Most children, when told that two wrongs don't make a right, see a moral lesson. Some see a problem of arithmetic. I can see your point. Trump regularly said that he deserved more than 4 more years. I think he really expected America to change the law so he could serve a third term (either that or he expected to be named president-for-life).
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

23rd January 2021, 10:07 PM	#1616
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,578	Originally Posted by Ladewig I can see your point. Trump regularly said that he deserved more than 4 more years. I think he really expected America to change the law so he could serve a third term (either that or he expected to be named president-for-life). I don't know about expected, exactly, so much as that he made it perfectly clear that he just wanted his caporegimes to make it happen, in his generally pretty obvious mob boss way. And to be clear, if Republicans would have managed to take over the House and keep the Senate (in 2022, at least), and Trump had won - it's far too much of a safe bet that they would have done exactly that for him.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 23rd January 2021 at 10:10 PM.

23rd January 2021, 10:30 PM	#1617
Athyrio Hipster Doofus Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Nutsack, FL Posts: 2,194	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger He believes, at least superficially, that the election really was stolen from him. That man was such a liar, so vile, so un-presidential, that believing that the election was stolen from him is exactly what I want him to take to bed every night, to let his own lying personality eat him from the inside out.
	__________________ Knowledge is good.... Emil Faber

23rd January 2021, 10:43 PM	#1618
BazBear Possible Suspect Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Stowe VT USA Posts: 2,865	Originally Posted by Aridas I don't know about expected, exactly, so much as that he made it perfectly clear that he just wanted his caporegimes to make it happen, in his generally pretty obvious mob boss way. And to be clear, if Republicans would have managed to take over the House and keep the Senate (in 2022, at least), and Trump had won - it's far too much of a safe bet that they would have done exactly that for him. They might have tried, but just to propose an amendment you need a 2/3 majority vote in both houses, then 3/4 (38) of the states must approve it for ratification. Not likely.
	__________________ I don't see how an article of clothing can be indecent. A person, yes. - Robert A. Heinlein If Christ died for our sins, dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? - Jules Feiffer If you are going through hell, keep going - Winston Churchill

23rd January 2021, 10:54 PM	#1619
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,829	Originally Posted by Ladewig I can see your point. Trump regularly said that he deserved more than 4 more years. I think he really expected America to change the law so he could serve a third term (either that or he expected to be named president-for-life). The ramblings of a sick narcissist, because he was investigated in his first term there should be payback, those years shouldn't count toward the term limits. People owe him.

23rd January 2021, 10:56 PM	#1620
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	Originally Posted by BazBear They might have tried, but just to propose an amendment you need a 2/3 majority vote in both houses, then 3/4 (38) of the states must approve it for ratification. Not likely. Or a Supreme Court that would be willing to rule that the Constitutional provision does not apply in this case for some flimsy reason. Or a Congress, overtaken by Republicans in the midterms after massive gerrymandering is upheld by Trump judicial appointees, passes a law that he can run for a third term and a judicial toady or the Supreme Court decides that the law is not unconstitutional for some flimsy reason. Or for any of the other vague reasons expressed in a massive propaganda campaign and dozens of lawsuits. And pressure and threats from the DOJ to State officials to allow his name on the ballot no mater what the law says. And failing all else, inciting a mob to storm the Capitol to prevent Congress from certifying a new President and declaring himself in charge. I know that all sounds really crazy, and nothing even close to that would really actually happen, but we can consider what could be possible, you know, theoretically.
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

23rd January 2021, 11:07 PM	#1621
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	And that is one of the reasons Trump should be convicted and prevented from holding office. Imagine if he ran and won in 2024. What would happen over those next 4 years? What would happen in 2028 when he has nothing to lose? It could be 10 times worse than what we saw over the last few months. A successful coup. The end of democracy in America.
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

24th January 2021, 12:18 AM	#1622
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	To give you an idea of how Trump's mind works and how he never, ever takes responsibility for anything he does: When he bought the Doral Golf Club Resort and was remodeling it, he specifically ordered the cheapest paint Benjamin Moore Company made even though he was told it would not hold up and it was not compatible with the wear and tear of a commercial property. He ordered it anyway. When it started splotch and peel when the maids cleaned the walls he told Benjamin Moore that it was defective and he wanted them to not only reimburse him for the paint but to repaint the entire resort for free with paint two grades up. When the company refused, he threatened to sue them. He threatened that he'd claim the paint was defective (it wasn't) and that the bad publicity alone would cost them millions. The company finally agreed to give Trump credit for 10,000 gallons of level 3 paint in compensation free. This paint was $30 a gallon more than the cheap paint he'd originally purchased. Trump never admitted he'd been cheap and ordered level one paint against the advice of his contractor. In essence, he not only paid for level one paint and got level three, he got credit for much more paint which he could use at any time in the future and he did it by lying and bullying.

24th January 2021, 06:07 AM	#1623
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,785	Originally Posted by Stacyhs To give you an idea of how Trump's mind works and how he never, ever takes responsibility for anything he does: When he bought the Doral Golf Club Resort and was remodeling... That anecdote is covered in Michael Cohen’s book, “Disloyal”. Which is only one of many. Well worth a read, regardless of what you might think of Michael Cohen.

24th January 2021, 06:48 AM	#1624
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,813	It also misrepresents Trump’s behaviour. It gives the impression that Trump acts in a strategic and rational manner albeit an unethical manner. What actually happens is that Trump wants and other people try to fulfil his wants.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th January 2021, 05:35 PM	#1625
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B That anecdote is covered in Michael Cohen’s book, “Disloyal”. Which is only one of many. Well worth a read, regardless of what you might think of Michael Cohen. Which is where I read about it. The book is fascinating. Cohen was scum but at least he admits it. He makes few excuses for what he did other than he wanted power, he knew he could get it via Trump, and that, like so many others, he fell under the spell of Trump's celebrity. We cannot deny that he's not the only one who sold his soul to Trump. But he's trying to get it back unlike some we could name: Graham, Jordan, Cruz, etc.

24th January 2021, 05:44 PM	#1626
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	Originally Posted by Darat It also misrepresents Trump’s behaviour. It gives the impression that Trump acts in a strategic and rational manner albeit an unethical manner. What actually happens is that Trump wants and other people try to fulfil his wants. Are you referring to the paint anecdote? If so, you are correct. I should have written "Cohen" not "He" threatened the lawsuits, etc. because all Trump did was tell Cohen to "take care of it" when the paint started to peel. Cohen was one who acted like the mobster and did all the dirty work ( and he freely admits it) when it came to taking care of problems Trump got himself into which was often. As Cohen said, Trump is not a strategic thinker. He lives in the present and the short term.

24th January 2021, 05:45 PM	#1627
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,590	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate Or a Supreme Court that would be willing to rule that the Constitutional provision does not apply in this case for some flimsy reason. Or a Congress, overtaken by Republicans in the midterms after massive gerrymandering is upheld by Trump judicial appointees, passes a law that he can run for a third term and a judicial toady or the Supreme Court decides that the law is not unconstitutional for some flimsy reason. Or for any of the other vague reasons expressed in a massive propaganda campaign and dozens of lawsuits. And pressure and threats from the DOJ to State officials to allow his name on the ballot no mater what the law says. And failing all else, inciting a mob to storm the Capitol to prevent Congress from certifying a new President and declaring himself in charge. I know that all sounds really crazy, and nothing even close to that would really actually happen, but we can consider what could be possible, you know, theoretically. SCOTUS is not going to rule on the constitutionality of the Impeachment. The Constitution is clear. Impeachment is entirely under the jurisdiction of the House and the trial is entirely under the jurisdiction of the Senate. There is also both precedence in the case of Belknap and the words of Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist papers.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

24th January 2021, 05:52 PM	#1628
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,545	I don't deny for a minute that Trump is a con man and a grifter,but it is huge mistake to think all of his actions are part of a grift. that does not explain the many actions he had done that have backfired on him, which he never would have done if the grift was all he had in mind.Trump the Nacissist and Trump the Egomaniac often win out, in Trump's mind, over Trump the Grifter.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

24th January 2021, 06:03 PM	#1629
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,033	Originally Posted by varwoche I would like to write up a comprehensive de-programming guide for Trump cultists. I intend a simple presentation of facts, no snark, no hyperbole, organized into chapters. If anyone out there wishes to participate, I'll start a thread and make it a community exercise. It's been very well established by now that the "information deficit" model of skeptical activism doesn't work. You can't change someone's mind simply by showing them true information. That said, I'll be happy to contribute my skills (such as they are - mostly in the area of proofreading and editing) to such an endeavour.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

24th January 2021, 06:16 PM	#1630
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	Originally Posted by arthwollipot It's been very well established by now that the "information deficit" model of skeptical activism doesn't work. You can't change someone's mind simply by showing them true information. That said, I'll be happy to contribute my skills (such as they are - mostly in the area of proofreading and editing) to such an endeavour. Absolutely true. People believe what they want to believe. Despite the saying, they do believe they are entitled to their own set of facts.

24th January 2021, 06:29 PM	#1631
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,033	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Absolutely true. People believe what they want to believe. Despite the saying, they do believe they are entitled to their own set of facts. In T***'s case, it's even worse. If he suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I think he does, then he is incapable of understanding when he's wrong about something. He is the only important thing in his universe, and whatever comes out of his mouth is - has* to be - truthful, because he believes himself to be utterly infallible.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

24th January 2021, 07:01 PM	#1632
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	Originally Posted by arthwollipot In T***'s case, it's even worse. If he suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I think he does, then he is incapable of understanding when he's wrong about something. He is the only important thing in his universe, and whatever comes out of his mouth is - has* to be - truthful, because he believes himself to be utterly infallible. No, Trump knows when he's lying. He just doesn't care that he's lying because whatever he does is justifiable. He believes that whatever he says at that moment that benefits him is perfectly OK. He can come to believe his own lies, especially if they are reinforced by others. I think he truly has come to believe the election was rigged and that he actually won. He absolutely has NPD. There is no doubt about. He more than meets the required criteria in the DSM-V5 despite the claims that he hasn't had an in-person interview by a mental health professional. You might as well claim a skier with a femur sticking out through his skin can't be diagnosed with a broken leg because a doctor hasn't seen him in person yet.

24th January 2021, 07:05 PM	#1633
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,033	Originally Posted by Stacyhs No, Trump knows when he's lying. He just doesn't care that he's lying because whatever he does is justifiable. He believes that whatever he says at that moment that benefits him is perfectly OK. He can come to believe his own lies, especially if they are reinforced by others. I think he truly has come to believe the election was rigged and that he actually won. He absolutely has NPD. There is no doubt about. He more than meets the required criteria in the DSM-V5 despite the claims that he hasn't had an in-person interview by a mental health professional. You might as well claim a skier with a femur sticking out through his skin can't be diagnosed with a broken leg because a doctor hasn't seen him in person yet. It's very hard to get people with NPD to undertake a voluntary psychiatric evaluation. Since in their minds they are perfect and infallible, the idea that they may be mentally ill is insulting.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

24th January 2021, 07:14 PM	#1634
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,221	Originally Posted by arthwollipot It's very hard to get people with NPD to undertake a voluntary psychiatric evaluation. Since in their minds they are perfect and infallible, the idea that they may be mentally ill is insulting. Exactly! But tell that to those insisting on upholding the Goldwater rule. You might want to take a look at this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=318937

24th January 2021, 07:46 PM	#1635
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	Originally Posted by acbytesla SCOTUS is not going to rule on the constitutionality of the Impeachment. The Constitution is clear. Impeachment is entirely under the jurisdiction of the House and the trial is entirely under the jurisdiction of the Senate. There is also both precedence in the case of Belknap and the words of Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist papers. I was talking about him getting the Supreme Court to rule that the Presidential term limits under the 22nd Amendment do not apply to him for some reason.
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley