[Continuation] Covid-19 and Politics pt 2 - Page 86

Airfix · 1st February 2021, 06:08 AM

What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ?
Has that not occurred to them ?

Provide a licence to manufacture.
Cover any necessary costs.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 1st February 2021, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ?
Has that not occurred to them ?

Provide a licence to manufacture.
Cover any necessary costs.

How many third party manufacturers are capable of doing the job and how long would it take to get them approved as a sub contract supplier?

The Don · 1st February 2021, 06:23 AM

As usual, Boris Johnson cannot resist the opportunity to get a positive headline:

Quote:

Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he is "optimistic" about the summer holidays this year.

Johnson says he doesn't want to "give too much" by way of dates for the summer holidays but that he will be setting out more on 22 February "about the way ahead" and that "people should certainly be able to plan on that basis".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share

Everyone will be happy to go on their hollybobs, we'll have a second "eat out to help out" in August and then be surprised when the case load and death tolls mount in autumn 2021.

Airfix · 1st February 2021, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

How many third party manufacturers are capable of doing the job and how long would it take to get them approved as a sub contract supplier?

I am talking about the businesses who are normally their competitors.

Lplus · 1st February 2021, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

As usual, Boris Johnson cannot resist the opportunity to get a positive headline:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share

Everyone will be happy to go on their hollybobs, we'll have a second "eat out to help out" in August and then be surprised when the case load and death tolls mount in autumn 2021.

Presumably you are assuming the vaccines will be useless by then?

The Don · 1st February 2021, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Lplus

Presumably you are assuming the vaccines will be useless by then?

The vaccine programme with only be half done by summer so while it will be a factor come the autumn, most of the people who will have been on their summer holidays will not have been vaccinated, will have chosen not to be vaccinated, will have been vaccinated only once, will have been vaccinated but not yet have developed immunity or will have been part of the n% who don't develop immunity.

These people will have been mingling on flights, in resort and at home whilst having the "reassurance" of the vaccine. IMO it's almost a perfect storm for an Autumn explosion of infection.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 1st February 2021, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I am talking about the businesses who are normally their competitors.

The ones that are already busy producing their own vaccines?

Wudang · 1st February 2021, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ?
Has that not occurred to them ?

Provide a licence to manufacture.
Cover any necessary costs.

If you read down to "article 5.4" in the link below it requires AZ to work with a list of CMOs (definition unclear) to manufacture the vaccine if they fall short if I read it correctly. The link to the contract in the article is broken (it links to a pdf on his own harddrive)

https://davidallengreen.com/2021/01/...actually-says/

Airfix · 1st February 2021, 08:20 AM

I read that section over the weekend, it is slightly vague, however the Von Der Leyen Commission U turned after international pressure including condemnation from the World Health Organisation and the Irish government.

Airfix · 1st February 2021, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

The ones that are already busy producing their own vaccines?

As I understand it seasonal flu infections have fallen strongly.
If that is the case, producers of flu vaccines may have redundant production capacity that could be turned over to Covid vaccine production, if it hasn't already been.

Something to consider... If the capacity exists.

The Don · 1st February 2021, 09:45 AM

Some good news for The Don family. The headline case rate (number tested positive in the last 7 days per 100,000) in Monmouthshire is down to 95/100,000, a month ago it was 500/100,000. This seems to indicate that being out and about, while taking suitable precautions, is significantly less risky than it was quite recently. We'll still be wary, but there's less reason to be paranoid.

More good news. The rules in Wales changed on 30 January. We can now meet another person outside our household for exercise. This means that Mrs Don can go for a walk with a friend or I can go for a run or a ride with my neighbour.

edited to add.....

Today's headline figure is 85.6/100,000

The Don · 1st February 2021, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

As I understand it seasonal flu infections have fallen strongly.
If that is the case, producers of flu vaccines may have redundant production capacity that could be turned over to Covid vaccine production, if it hasn't already been.

Something to consider... If the capacity exists.

Why ?

AIUI there was actually higher demand for flu vaccines this winter as all over 50's were eligible for one - I got to have my first

This may be one of the reasons why there was less seasonal flu around (another would be that the precautions to prevent Covid infection also help to prevent flu).

Darat · 1st February 2021, 10:10 AM

Anyone else find it mildly amusing that many top bods who have said the more infectious variant shouldn’t be called “the UK” variant just because it was detected first in the UK are quite happy talking about the “SA variant”?

Vixen · 1st February 2021, 10:53 AM

I see the wording 'reasonable best efforts' as another way of saying 'in good faith', which is presumed within a contract anyway. With advance ordering of supplies not yet produced then to mitigate against the risk of non-fulfilment, there needs to be 'work-in-progress' type reports as to how the project is going. There should have been an early contingency plan for any shortfall in expectation. For example, 'Party A shall notify Party B within X period of time, should delivery targets not be attainable'.

Either the EU were caught on the backfoot or AstraZeneca reneged. Or, of course, simpler than bad faith, it could just be an old-fashioned cock-up.

Vixen · 1st February 2021, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ?
Has that not occurred to them ?

Provide a licence to manufacture.
Cover any necessary costs.

It's under patent. Trade secrets.

Vixen · 1st February 2021, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

As usual, Boris Johnson cannot resist the opportunity to get a positive headline:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share

Everyone will be happy to go on their hollybobs, we'll have a second "eat out to help out" in August and then be surprised when the case load and death tolls mount in autumn 2021.

Just ignore any headline that says, 'could'.

I don't even consider this news but dull meaningless PR. <fx YAWN>

Vixen · 1st February 2021, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Some good news for The Don family. The headline case rate (number tested positive in the last 7 days per 100,000) in Monmouthshire is down to 95/100,000, a month ago it was 500/100,000. This seems to indicate that being out and about, while taking suitable precautions, is significantly less risky than it was quite recently. We'll still be wary, but there's less reason to be paranoid.

More good news. The rules in Wales changed on 30 January. We can now meet another person outside our household for exercise. This means that Mrs Don can go for a walk with a friend or I can go for a run or a ride with my neighbour.

edited to add.....

Today's headline figure is 85.6/100,000

116/100K here.

Darat · 1st February 2021, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I see the wording 'reasonable best efforts' ...snip...

Yet that’s not what they actually mean in a contract under UK law or indeed EU law.

Wudang · 1st February 2021, 11:20 AM

In fact the contract defines it as above. And a CMO (referenced above) is a Contract Manufacturing Organization. The documents can be downloaded from
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres...l/en/ip_21_302

Airfix · 1st February 2021, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

It's under patent. Trade secrets.

And that can be dealt with via confidentiality agreements and a production licence.

Rolfe · 1st February 2021, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

Some good news for The Don family. The headline case rate (number tested positive in the last 7 days per 100,000) in Monmouthshire is down to 95/100,000, a month ago it was 500/100,000. This seems to indicate that being out and about, while taking suitable precautions, is significantly less risky than it was quite recently. We'll still be wary, but there's less reason to be paranoid.

More good news. The rules in Wales changed on 30 January. We can now meet another person outside our household for exercise. This means that Mrs Don can go for a walk with a friend or I can go for a run or a ride with my neighbour.

edited to add.....

Today's headline figure is 85.6/100,000

Our "neighbourhood" is on 48.6, although the local authority as a whole is on 79.6. Wouldn't you be better going by your own neighbourhood if you're not planning on going far?

There were reports of an "outbreak" in the village where I live in the middle of last week, but I don't think we were anything out of the ordinary and the doctor's surgery were telling people the testing centre was set up in the village more because of geography - we're 40 miles from the county hospital and possibly the same to the airport where there is a test centre. Some people were getting tested although they knew they couldn't have been exposed but I didn't bother. First rule of laboratory medicine, if you know for certain what the result is going to be, don't do the test (unless it's a real population survey, which this wasn't).

I walked into the centre of the village this afternoon to pay my newspaper bill and buy some more tapeworm tablets for the cat, because the weather forecast says we might be snowed in tonight or tomorrow for a few days. Not that it's impossible to walk the 500 yards to the village centre no matter how much snow there is but why make it difficult? Both shops I went into are one-customer-only and have perspex shields at the counters, but I wore the FFP3 anyway.

I met a friend on the way back so I dropped my purchases off at my house and continued on a walk with her. I think it's legal anyway, but since I'm in a rather arms-length extended household with her and her husband, it was OK regardless. Her husband has already had his first vaccine dose and everyone seems to think they're getting through the lists pretty well despite the attempts at bad publicity and rubbishing the system. Numbers of new infections are certainly coming down.

Airfix · 1st February 2021, 02:18 PM

If it helps save lives and get the UK variant taken more seriously, then we should call it that.

Agatha · 1st February 2021, 02:28 PM

Continuation thread opened here.

Posted By:Agatha

1st February 2021, 06:08 AM	#3401
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ? Has that not occurred to them ? Provide a licence to manufacture. Cover any necessary costs.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

1st February 2021, 06:15 AM	#3402
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,771	Originally Posted by Airfix What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ? Has that not occurred to them ? Provide a licence to manufacture. Cover any necessary costs. How many third party manufacturers are capable of doing the job and how long would it take to get them approved as a sub contract supplier?
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

1st February 2021, 06:28 AM	#3404
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal How many third party manufacturers are capable of doing the job and how long would it take to get them approved as a sub contract supplier? I am talking about the businesses who are normally their competitors.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

1st February 2021, 06:51 AM	#3405
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 653	Originally Posted by The Don As usual, Boris Johnson cannot resist the opportunity to get a positive headline: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share Everyone will be happy to go on their hollybobs, we'll have a second "eat out to help out" in August and then be surprised when the case load and death tolls mount in autumn 2021. Presumably you are assuming the vaccines will be useless by then?
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 653	__________________ Those who are most fanatical in their condemnation of others are often mortally afraid that, in their deepest subconcious, they agree with those who they are condemning. Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.

1st February 2021, 07:56 AM	#3407
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,771	Originally Posted by Airfix I am talking about the businesses who are normally their competitors. The ones that are already busy producing their own vaccines?
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

1st February 2021, 06:23 AM	#3403
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,591	As usual, Boris Johnson cannot resist the opportunity to get a positive headline: Quote: Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he is "optimistic" about the summer holidays this year. Johnson says he doesn't want to "give too much" by way of dates for the summer holidays but that he will be setting out more on 22 February "about the way ahead" and that "people should certainly be able to plan on that basis". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share Everyone will be happy to go on their hollybobs, we'll have a second "eat out to help out" in August and then be surprised when the case load and death tolls mount in autumn 2021.

1st February 2021, 07:48 AM	#3406
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,591	Originally Posted by Lplus Presumably you are assuming the vaccines will be useless by then? The vaccine programme with only be half done by summer so while it will be a factor come the autumn, most of the people who will have been on their summer holidays will not have been vaccinated, will have chosen not to be vaccinated, will have been vaccinated only once, will have been vaccinated but not yet have developed immunity or will have been part of the n% who don't develop immunity. These people will have been mingling on flights, in resort and at home whilst having the "reassurance" of the vaccine. IMO it's almost a perfect storm for an Autumn explosion of infection.

1st February 2021, 08:14 AM	#3408
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,582	Originally Posted by Airfix What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ? Has that not occurred to them ? Provide a licence to manufacture. Cover any necessary costs. If you read down to "article 5.4" in the link below it requires AZ to work with a list of CMOs (definition unclear) to manufacture the vaccine if they fall short if I read it correctly. The link to the contract in the article is broken (it links to a pdf on his own harddrive) https://davidallengreen.com/2021/01/...actually-says/
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

1st February 2021, 08:20 AM	#3409
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	I read that section over the weekend, it is slightly vague, however the Von Der Leyen Commission U turned after international pressure including condemnation from the World Health Organisation and the Irish government.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

1st February 2021, 08:33 AM	#3410
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal The ones that are already busy producing their own vaccines? As I understand it seasonal flu infections have fallen strongly. If that is the case, producers of flu vaccines may have redundant production capacity that could be turned over to Covid vaccine production, if it hasn't already been. Something to consider... If the capacity exists.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

1st February 2021, 09:45 AM	#3411
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,591	Some good news for The Don family. The headline case rate (number tested positive in the last 7 days per 100,000) in Monmouthshire is down to 95/100,000, a month ago it was 500/100,000. This seems to indicate that being out and about, while taking suitable precautions, is significantly less risky than it was quite recently. We'll still be wary, but there's less reason to be paranoid. More good news. The rules in Wales changed on 30 January. We can now meet another person outside our household for exercise. This means that Mrs Don can go for a walk with a friend or I can go for a run or a ride with my neighbour. edited to add..... Today's headline figure is 85.6/100,000
	Last edited by The Don; 1st February 2021 at 09:51 AM.

1st February 2021, 09:47 AM	#3412
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,591	Originally Posted by Airfix As I understand it seasonal flu infections have fallen strongly. If that is the case, producers of flu vaccines may have redundant production capacity that could be turned over to Covid vaccine production, if it hasn't already been. Something to consider... If the capacity exists. Why ? AIUI there was actually higher demand for flu vaccines this winter as all over 50's were eligible for one - I got to have my first This may be one of the reasons why there was less seasonal flu around (another would be that the precautions to prevent Covid infection also help to prevent flu).

1st February 2021, 10:10 AM	#3413
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,743	Anyone else find it mildly amusing that many top bods who have said the more infectious variant shouldn’t be called “the UK” variant just because it was detected first in the UK are quite happy talking about the “SA variant”?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

1st February 2021, 10:53 AM	#3414
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,536	I see the wording 'reasonable best efforts' as another way of saying 'in good faith', which is presumed within a contract anyway. With advance ordering of supplies not yet produced then to mitigate against the risk of non-fulfilment, there needs to be 'work-in-progress' type reports as to how the project is going. There should have been an early contingency plan for any shortfall in expectation. For example, 'Party A shall notify Party B within X period of time, should delivery targets not be attainable'. Either the EU were caught on the backfoot or AstraZeneca reneged. Or, of course, simpler than bad faith, it could just be an old-fashioned cock-up.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

1st February 2021, 10:54 AM	#3415
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,536	Originally Posted by Airfix What's wrong with sharing the recipe with other manufacturers and sub-contracting production ? Has that not occurred to them ? Provide a licence to manufacture. Cover any necessary costs. It's under patent. Trade secrets.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

1st February 2021, 10:56 AM	#3416
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,536	Originally Posted by The Don As usual, Boris Johnson cannot resist the opportunity to get a positive headline: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share Everyone will be happy to go on their hollybobs, we'll have a second "eat out to help out" in August and then be surprised when the case load and death tolls mount in autumn 2021. Just ignore any headline that says, 'could'. I don't even consider this news but dull meaningless PR. <fx YAWN>
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

1st February 2021, 11:00 AM	#3417
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,536	Originally Posted by The Don Some good news for The Don family. The headline case rate (number tested positive in the last 7 days per 100,000) in Monmouthshire is down to 95/100,000, a month ago it was 500/100,000. This seems to indicate that being out and about, while taking suitable precautions, is significantly less risky than it was quite recently. We'll still be wary, but there's less reason to be paranoid. More good news. The rules in Wales changed on 30 January. We can now meet another person outside our household for exercise. This means that Mrs Don can go for a walk with a friend or I can go for a run or a ride with my neighbour. edited to add..... Today's headline figure is 85.6/100,000 116/100K here.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

1st February 2021, 11:04 AM	#3418
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,743	Originally Posted by Vixen I see the wording 'reasonable best efforts' ...snip... Yet that’s not what they actually mean in a contract under UK law or indeed EU law.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

1st February 2021, 11:20 AM	#3419
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,582	In fact the contract defines it as above. And a CMO (referenced above) is a Contract Manufacturing Organization. The documents can be downloaded from https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres...l/en/ip_21_302
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

1st February 2021, 11:52 AM	#3420
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	Originally Posted by Vixen It's under patent. Trade secrets. And that can be dealt with via confidentiality agreements and a production licence.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030

1st February 2021, 02:04 PM	#3421
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 47,194	Originally Posted by The Don Some good news for The Don family. The headline case rate (number tested positive in the last 7 days per 100,000) in Monmouthshire is down to 95/100,000, a month ago it was 500/100,000. This seems to indicate that being out and about, while taking suitable precautions, is significantly less risky than it was quite recently. We'll still be wary, but there's less reason to be paranoid. More good news. The rules in Wales changed on 30 January. We can now meet another person outside our household for exercise. This means that Mrs Don can go for a walk with a friend or I can go for a run or a ride with my neighbour. edited to add..... Today's headline figure is 85.6/100,000 Our "neighbourhood" is on 48.6, although the local authority as a whole is on 79.6. Wouldn't you be better going by your own neighbourhood if you're not planning on going far? There were reports of an "outbreak" in the village where I live in the middle of last week, but I don't think we were anything out of the ordinary and the doctor's surgery were telling people the testing centre was set up in the village more because of geography - we're 40 miles from the county hospital and possibly the same to the airport where there is a test centre. Some people were getting tested although they knew they couldn't have been exposed but I didn't bother. First rule of laboratory medicine, if you know for certain what the result is going to be, don't do the test (unless it's a real population survey, which this wasn't). I walked into the centre of the village this afternoon to pay my newspaper bill and buy some more tapeworm tablets for the cat, because the weather forecast says we might be snowed in tonight or tomorrow for a few days. Not that it's impossible to walk the 500 yards to the village centre no matter how much snow there is but why make it difficult? Both shops I went into are one-customer-only and have perspex shields at the counters, but I wore the FFP3 anyway. I met a friend on the way back so I dropped my purchases off at my house and continued on a walk with her. I think it's legal anyway, but since I'm in a rather arms-length extended household with her and her husband, it was OK regardless. Her husband has already had his first vaccine dose and everyone seems to think they're getting through the lists pretty well despite the attempts at bad publicity and rubbishing the system. Numbers of new infections are certainly coming down.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st February 2021, 02:18 PM	#3422
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030	If it helps save lives and get the UK variant taken more seriously, then we should call it that.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,030