Homeopathetic gains PSA accreditation

Dubious Dick · 12th September 2014, 02:53 AM

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!

In a staggeringly dumb move, the Professional Standards Authority in the U.K. have accredited The Society of Quackeopathy a.k.a. The Society of Homeopaths.

See the full story here:

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2014/09/the-society-of-homeopaths-have-achieved-psa-accreditation.html

I urge you all to write to the PSA to complain. They claim that they “do this to promote the health, safety and well-being of users of health and social care services and the public.”

How on earth can they achieve this goal when they recognise nonsense? Completely barmy, and if you read the PSA excuses they make zero sense in context of their stated mission.

Blue Wode · 11th January 2021, 05:27 AM

Update:
https://edzardernst.com/2021/01/the-...een-suspended/

Pixel42 · 11th January 2021, 05:34 AM

Excellent.

Darat · 11th January 2021, 05:44 AM

Took them long enough.

Ziggurat · 11th January 2021, 07:21 AM

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Wolrab · 11th January 2021, 08:52 AM

The short time they were accredited actually makes them way more accredited.

Blue Wode · 11th January 2021, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

The short time they were accredited actually makes them way more accredited.

More background here:
https://goodthinkingsociety.org/prof...of-homeopaths/

Caroline13 · 31st January 2021, 12:22 PM

I have a world of success with homeopathic remedies, particularly for my wonderful healing REM sleep, 8-10 hrs nightly, and and other remedies to keep my eyes in very good health at 82, no cataracts, no other eye disease and homeopathy is a huge part of keeping it this way.

And some topical homeopathics for bruises and pain are also in my arsenal, can't imagine them not in my life.

Isn't it a truth that homeopathy is used throughout the world and the least in the U.S. but it's being used more and more.

Norman Alexander · 31st January 2021, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I have a world of success with homeopathic remedies, particularly for my wonderful healing REM sleep, 8-10 hrs nightly, and and other remedies to keep my eyes in very good health at 82, no cataracts, no other eye disease and homeopathy is a huge part of keeping it this way.

Me too! But I don't use homeopathy and I never have. So that cancels out your anecdote.

Quote:

And some topical homeopathics for bruises and pain are also in my arsenal, can't imagine them not in my life.

Placebo much? Try just drinking plain water. It's exactly the same medication.

Quote:

Isn't it a truth that homeopathy is used throughout the world and the least in the U.S. but it's being used more and more.

No, not true. Lots of so-called homeopathics are being touted, but they are actually folk, unlicensed or ordinary medications with the word "homeopathic" added to the label to sell them to unwitting suckers at inflated prices.

Pixel42 · 31st January 2021, 12:37 PM

It is very easy to fool yourself into believing a medical treatment works even though it actually doesn't. Careful testing is required to determine whether apparent efficacy is genuine, or due to the placebo effect, confirmation bias and regression to the mean. Such testing has been done, and clearly shows that homeopathy is ineffective.

Here's the summary of the evidence considered by the Commons Select Committee, which led to the recommendation that homeopathy no longer be offered by the NHS:

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...ch/45/4502.htm

Caroline13 · 31st January 2021, 12:44 PM

No it's not plain water, there is a science behind it and "like cures", and plain water to sleep, I'd be up all night. After menopause FOR ME and more chronic pain from OA and damaged surgery, my sleep went downhill, now at 82 I sleep 8-10 good deep hrs...and also in the whole mix is a HGH homeopathic gel I've been using for 2 yrs, my daughter and I, she 2.5 yrs, me 2 yrs.

Sleep issues are major in our population and it's sad and very pathetic as it's so needed for healing. And to increase HGH as we age.

No it's NOT plain water.

We have a Homeopathic pharmacy in our town and they are major in homeopathics and all medicines, outside pharma, and they have been in business here since 1948, they were my first go to when I moved here 55 yrs. ago.

Matthew Best · 31st January 2021, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No it's NOT plain water.

It's not plain water, it's just scientifically indistinguishable from plain water. There's a subtle difference.

Caroline13 · 31st January 2021, 12:57 PM

There is a science to it and Most of the world uses homeopathics. And it's inexpensive and no side effects and pharma would love love love it to be out of their hairs.

Pixel42 · 31st January 2021, 01:01 PM

There is no science to it, science is what proved it did not work. The fact that many people still think it works is irrelevant. They are simply wrong.

Norman Alexander · 31st January 2021, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No it's not plain water, there is a science behind it and "like cures", and plain water to sleep, I'd be up all night. After menopause FOR ME and more chronic pain from OA and damaged surgery, my sleep went downhill, now at 82 I sleep 8-10 good deep hrs...and also in the whole mix is a HGH homeopathic gel I've been using for 2 yrs, my daughter and I, she 2.5 yrs, me 2 yrs.

If it's not plain water and contains any active ingredients then it is not "homeopathic" at all. You need to go look up what "homeopathic'" means. Someone is selling you an unlisted and probably untested medication. Do you like to gamble with your health like that?

Quote:

Sleep issues are major in our population and it's sad and very pathetic as it's so needed for healing. And to increase HGH as we age.

What is this HGH?

Quote:

No it's NOT plain water.

If it is truly made to homeopathic principles then it really is. In fact, it should be distilled water.

Quote:

We have a Homeopathic pharmacy in our town and they are major in homeopathics and all medicines, outside pharma, and they have been in business here since 1948, they were my first go to when I moved here 55 yrs. ago.

Making profits off the local suckers. Like I said.

steenkh · 31st January 2021, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No it's NOT plain water.

The point is that no homoeopath has ever been able to distinguish a blank pill from a homoeopathic pill, or a vial of water-based homoeopathic remedy from plain water, and so on. It is only the label on the bottle that distinguishes them.

Have you heard of the homoeopathic concept of “grafting”? It is basically putting blank pills close to homoeopathic pills, and they will magically receive the homoeopathic effect too, or putting a bottle of water close to a bottle of homoeopathic remedy, and then the water bottle becomes that same homoeopathic remedy. I am not making this stuff up! It is standard homoeopathy going right back to Hahnemann himself.

But homoeopathic believers normally have never heard about it. Strange, isn’t it? Believers likewise normally do not know how the sequential dilutions lead to not a single molecule of the remedy being left in the solution.

But skeptics know these things, and we also understand why grafting works - and it does work!

Finally, for fun, I can tell you that some believers have noticed that they can achieve the same wonderful effect of homoeopathy without having the actual remedy. Just write the name of the remedy on a slip of paper, and sleep with it under the pillow. This will have the same effect as the actual remedy. I kid you not! It actually works, and skeptics know why.

hecd2 · 31st January 2021, 04:20 PM

It has been demonstrated that pink sugar pills are more efficacious than white sugar pills.

Caroline13 · 31st January 2021, 05:40 PM

I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs.

If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority.

Just blasting off what one knows of nothing. And yes I've tried some over the years that didn't do what I had hoped for, but that is TRUE with all medicines...

I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's.

hecd2 · 31st January 2021, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs.

that, of course is your choice.

Quote:

If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority.

The authority comes from a consideration of the facts (not a single active molecule left in the dilution) and multiple double blind trials that show that homeopathy is no better than placebo. The easiest person to fool is yourself.

Quote:

I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's.

Whereas I wouldn’t be alive without Rx medication. But that’s just another anecdote. The proof is in the trials.

Norman Alexander · 31st January 2021, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs.

Boiron is the world's leading producer of homeopathic remedies. They are also one of the world's biggest pharmaceutical manufacturers. They make billions of Euros every year selling plain water and plain sugar pills to gullible people. No toxins, but also no medicine either. Unless your "illness" is thirst.

Don't believe me? Check out their own website about how they make their money.

Quote:

If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority.

Who says we haven't used them? Who says we haven't investigated them fully?

Quote:

Just blasting off what one knows of nothing.

Whoops, wrong. We know a LOT more than most users of homeopathy.

Quote:

And yes I've tried some over the years that didn't do what I had hoped for, but that is TRUE with all medicines...

I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's.

Which "big pharma drug" in the 80's was that?

RecoveringYuppy · 31st January 2021, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by steenkh

Believers likewise normally do not know how the sequential dilutions lead to not a single molecule of the remedy being left in the solution.

And the so-called "remedies" aren't even remedies themselves. Duck liver is for treating flu for example. Duck liver has no role in causing or curing flu.

Pixel42 · 31st January 2021, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority.

By looking at the results of carefully conducted testing.

Personal, anecdotal experience often leads to the wrong conclusion, due to cognitive biases (particularly confirmation bias). That's why it was necessary to invent the scientific method.

fishbob · 1st February 2021, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

There is no science to it, science is what proved it did not work. The fact that many people still think it works is irrelevant. They are simply wrong.

I have to disagree.
It works wonderfully for its intended purpose - separating the gullible from as much of their money as possible.

Lothian · 1st February 2021, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs.

If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority.

Just blasting off what one knows of nothing. And yes I've tried some over the years that didn't do what I had hoped for, but that is TRUE with all medicines...

I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's.

Yeah, glad to get a sensible scientific voice to counter all the neighsayers. Unfortunately my scientific knowledge is not good enough but I am sure you can help.

Can you please explain the science behind Homeopathic grafting and

We know like cures like but what triggers the reaction. Is it the active molecules in the tablet? If it is the inactive molecules how does that work, scientifically?

Pixel42 · 1st February 2021, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by fishbob

I have to disagree.
It works wonderfully for its intended purpose - separating the gullible from as much of their money as possible.

That's a little unfair, I think. If you read about Hahnemann he does seem to have been trying to do science, or what passed for it back then. Reading about his work and the trajectory it took, you can almost cry as you watch him grab hold of the wrong end of the stick and run straight down a blind alley with it.

I think the majority of homeopaths are equally well meaning. They have less excuse than Hahnemann because the information that proves them wrong is freely available, but the belief that personal experience is a better source of reliable information than decades of careful scientific investigation is pervasive . Most people don't even know what cognitive biases are, and have no understanding of why anecdotal evidence is so unreliable.

Carrot Flower King · 1st February 2021, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No it's not plain water, there is a science behind it and "like cures", and plain water to sleep, I'd be up all night. After menopause FOR ME and more chronic pain from OA and damaged surgery, my sleep went downhill, now at 82 I sleep 8-10 good deep hrs...and also in the whole mix is a HGH homeopathic gel I've been using for 2 yrs, my daughter and I, she 2.5 yrs, me 2 yrs.

Sleep issues are major in our population and it's sad and very pathetic as it's so needed for healing. And to increase HGH as we age.

No it's NOT plain water.

We have a Homeopathic pharmacy in our town and they are major in homeopathics and all medicines, outside pharma, and they have been in business here since 1948, they were my first go to when I moved here 55 yrs. ago.

Citations needed, please? There is nothing I recognise as science, nor even healthcare, involved. So enlighten me, do? Unless we are counting deliberate use of placebo, which is not regarded as ethical over here.

Glad to see someone mentioned Boiron and their millions and billions of euros profit: would this be Big Sugar or Big Water?

The argument, given in a later post, about popularity reminds me of the one about flies and faecal matter...

Carrot Flower King · 1st February 2021, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

That's a little unfair, I think. If you read about Hahnemann he does seem to have been trying to do science, or what passed for it back then. Reading about his work and the trajectory it took, you can almost cry as you watch him grab hold of the wrong end of the stick and run straight down a blind alley with it.

I think the majority of homeopaths are equally well meaning. They have less excuse than Hahnemann because the information that proves them wrong is freely available, but the belief that personal experience is a better source of reliable information than decades of careful scientific investigation is pervasive . Most people don't even know what cognitive biases are, and have no understanding of why anecdotal evidence is so unreliable.

One can argue that what Hahnemann was doing was in some respects less harmful than a lot of standard "medical" practice at the time, but that's about as far as it goes and only for his time.

Anyone advocating homeopathy now has deliberately, wilfully ignored all standard science and medicine and that alone takes them away from "well meaning": why not undertake nursing or medical or physio or psychology or pharmacy or whatever training instead? No one makes them become homeopaths, they decide to follow the grift, rather than do the hard work involved in all the standard training. Why is that?

Darat · 1st February 2021, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs.

...snip....

In the UK lots of the homeopathic treatments for sale i.e to make money are produced by large “drug” companies with turnovers in hundreds of millions of euros. Why are those companies different to “other” big pharma?

Carrot Flower King · 1st February 2021, 05:51 AM

And if we are going to trade anecdotes...Teh Ebil Pig Farmer is keeping me alive with his nasty toxic drugs, which are minimising my cardiac problems and letting me have some sort of a life rather than being dead, which is a damn sight more than any homeopath can do.

Caroline13 · 1st February 2021, 12:59 PM

I get it more and more on this one, the Skeptics group, and I too have skeptics about other things in life but on different medicines, protocols, therapies throughout the world, I believe and have used many others, and I count homeopathy as one of my great medicines in my life. For a while I was a member of a strictly homeopathic forum and these people had a hard time believing how so much of the world used toxic drugs.

So with life and all things it's choices and what works in our lives.

Just thinking too, the Royals have used homeopathy since the beginning of it's inception, true? They most likely used more than one type medicine.

Peace out members.

Caroline13 · 1st February 2021, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

And if we are going to trade anecdotes...Teh Ebil Pig Farmer is keeping me alive with his nasty toxic drugs, which are minimising my cardiac problems and letting me have some sort of a life rather than being dead, which is a damn sight more than any homeopath can do.

That is GOOD, and many of the world uses several or more type medicines to keep them in good health and alive.

Gord_in_Toronto · 1st February 2021, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

That is GOOD, and many of the world uses several or more type medicines to keep them in good health and alive.

Except, of course, the various herbs and mostly distilled water do not work.

Smallpox has been completely and utterly eradicated by vaccination.

After centuries of using Ayurvedic medicine in India life expectancy was a constant 25 years. With a slow acceptance of science based medicine starting about 1920, life expectancy is now now close to 70.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ndia-all-time/

Pixel42 · 1st February 2021, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

That is GOOD, and many of the world uses several or more type medicines to keep them in good health and alive.

Some of the types of medicine used keep them in good health and alive. Homeopathy is not one of them.

Caroline13 · 1st February 2021, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Some of the types of medicine used keep them in good health and alive. Homeopathy is not one of them.

You believe what you choose to and those of us who believe in homeopathy will do the same. It's good to be skeptical but it's good to keep an open mind too.

Norman Alexander · 1st February 2021, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

You believe what you choose to and those of us who believe in homeopathy will do the same. It's good to be skeptical but it's good to keep an open mind too.

Modern medicine works DESPITE whatever you believe. Homeopathy works only IF you believe.

There's an old saying: Skeptics keep an open mind. But not so open that their brains fall out.

Gord_in_Toronto · 1st February 2021, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

You believe what you choose to and those of us who believe in homeopathy will do the same. It's good to be skeptical but it's good to keep an open mind too.

Not when your brains fall out!

MarkCorrigan · 1st February 2021, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

You believe what you choose to and those of us who believe in homeopathy will do the same. It's good to be skeptical but it's good to keep an open mind too.

Keeping an open mind means being open to the possibility of something provided there is evidence for it.

It is not open minded to accept anything without evidence.

For example, I could say that my depression (yes, I do suffer from depression) has been cured by magical pixies that live in my ear.

Is it open minded to accept that this is accurate and that magic ear pixies cure depression? I'm sure you would laugh at the very idea, and you would be right to!

Only problem is, homeopathy has been subject to far more intesive testing than magic ear pixies and has been found time and again to not be efficatious for treating anything beyond that of random chance/the placebo effect.

It has been shown, in clinical trial after clinical trial that homeopathy just doesn't work. Therefore if you continue to believe in homeopathy this is no longer being open minded. The truly open minded person would look at the evidence and think that their own personal anecdotes must be mistaken. The person who believes their own anecdotes over the evidence is not only closed minded, they are actively engaging in confirmation bias.

Caroline13 · 1st February 2021, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Keeping an open mind means being open to the possibility of something provided there is evidence for it.

It is not open minded to accept anything without evidence.

For example, I could say that my depression (yes, I do suffer from depression) has been cured by magical pixies that live in my ear.

Is it open minded to accept that this is accurate and that magic ear pixies cure depression? I'm sure you would laugh at the very idea, and you would be right to!

Only problem is, homeopathy has been subject to far more intesive testing than magic ear pixies and has been found time and again to not be efficatious for treating anything beyond that of random chance/the placebo effect.

It has been shown, in clinical trial after clinical trial that homeopathy just doesn't work. Therefore if you continue to believe in homeopathy this is no longer being open minded. The truly open minded person would look at the evidence and think that their own personal anecdotes must be mistaken. The person who believes their own anecdotes over the evidence is not only closed minded, they are actively engaging in confirmation bias.

There are homeopathic for depression.

I struggled for 10 yrs with clinical depression and it was a sluggish thyroid that went undetected by a bunch of STUPID doctors and all they kept doing was slapping me with A/D drugs..this went on for 10 ugly years. Talk about being drugged for 10 yrs with A/D's that did NOTHING. Only made pharma fatter $$$. A dsyfunctional thyroid is a major one with depression and a very inexpensive drug vs A/D's that the docs give out like candy.

Once my good ole D.O. took charge he put me on Armour thyroid, no labs nadda, and the 10 yrs of depression lifted, gone.

Then a few yrs later some lowness hit me and I found how deficient I was in Vit D and got that fixed and no depression for over 15 yrs or so.

I have found in my long life, a LOT of worthless MD's..deep pockets for sure.

And so many go without optimal thyroid support from dumb doctors who believe we are numbers and not symptoms. Don't give thyroid support, give the wrong one, or don't give the right strength and dose.

MarkCorrigan · 1st February 2021, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

There are homeopathic for depression.

I struggled for 10 yrs with clinical depression and it was a sluggish thyroid that went undetected by a bunch of STUPID doctors and all they kept doing was slapping me with A/D drugs..this went on for 10 ugly years. Talk about being drugged for 10 yrs with A/D's that did NOTHING. Only made pharma fatter $$$.

Once my good ole D.O. took charge he put me on Armour thyroid, no labs nadda, and the 10 yrs of depression lifted, gone.

Then a few yrs later some lowness hit me and I found how deficient I was in Vit D and got that fixed and no depression for over 15 yrs or so.

I notice that you not only completely ignored the substance of my post to push quack fake medicine that does nothing, but you managed to wonderfully prove that the homeopathic rubbish you took for your "depression" did not work.

What you had was vitamin D deficiency. This can certainly lead to low moods and is a deeply unpleasant condition. It is not Major Depression with suicidal ideation, which is what I have, and is being managed wonderfully by anti-depressant drugs. Drugs which may not have helped you because you didn't actually have depression in the first place.

Now, do you believe me regarding magical ear pixies curing depression, yes or no? If no, why do you see a difference between being "open minded" regarding ear pixies and being "open minded" regarding magic water?

Caroline13 · 1st February 2021, 07:40 PM

No when I started on my depression mess it was 1991 and I hardly knew anything about homeopathics...and went to docs to trust them to help me.

I've learned so much since then and you Mark Corrigan have no clue where I've been but I'm sharing some of what I've been thru.

You brought up depression.

12th September 2014, 02:53 AM	#1
Dubious Dick Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 515	Homeopathetic gains PSA accreditation Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! In a staggeringly dumb move, the Professional Standards Authority in the U.K. have accredited The Society of Quackeopathy a.k.a. The Society of Homeopaths. See the full story here: http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2014/09/the-society-of-homeopaths-have-achieved-psa-accreditation.html I urge you all to write to the PSA to complain. They claim that they “do this to promote the health, safety and well-being of users of health and social care services and the public.” How on earth can they achieve this goal when they recognise nonsense? Completely barmy, and if you read the PSA excuses they make zero sense in context of their stated mission.
Dubious Dick Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 515	__________________ "Let's stop being so damned respectful." Richard Dawkins, TED 2002[

11th January 2021, 05:27 AM	#2
Blue Wode Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,306	Update: https://edzardernst.com/2021/01/the-...een-suspended/
	__________________ ebm-first.com What alternative health practitioners might not tell you. https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode

11th January 2021, 05:34 AM	#3
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,145	Excellent.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

11th January 2021, 05:44 AM	#4
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,697	Took them long enough.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th January 2021, 08:52 AM	#6
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,759	The short time they were accredited actually makes them way more accredited.
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,759	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

11th January 2021, 09:49 AM	#7
Blue Wode Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,306	Originally Posted by Wolrab The short time they were accredited actually makes them way more accredited. More background here: https://goodthinkingsociety.org/prof...of-homeopaths/
	__________________ ebm-first.com What alternative health practitioners might not tell you. https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode

31st January 2021, 12:22 PM	#8
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	I have a world of success with homeopathic remedies, particularly for my wonderful healing REM sleep, 8-10 hrs nightly, and and other remedies to keep my eyes in very good health at 82, no cataracts, no other eye disease and homeopathy is a huge part of keeping it this way. And some topical homeopathics for bruises and pain are also in my arsenal, can't imagine them not in my life. Isn't it a truth that homeopathy is used throughout the world and the least in the U.S. but it's being used more and more.

31st January 2021, 12:35 PM	#9
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,124	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I have a world of success with homeopathic remedies, particularly for my wonderful healing REM sleep, 8-10 hrs nightly, and and other remedies to keep my eyes in very good health at 82, no cataracts, no other eye disease and homeopathy is a huge part of keeping it this way. Me too! But I don't use homeopathy and I never have. So that cancels out your anecdote. Quote: And some topical homeopathics for bruises and pain are also in my arsenal, can't imagine them not in my life. Placebo much? Try just drinking plain water. It's exactly the same medication. Quote: Isn't it a truth that homeopathy is used throughout the world and the least in the U.S. but it's being used more and more. No, not true. Lots of so-called homeopathics are being touted, but they are actually folk, unlicensed or ordinary medications with the word "homeopathic" added to the label to sell them to unwitting suckers at inflated prices.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

31st January 2021, 12:37 PM	#10
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,145	It is very easy to fool yourself into believing a medical treatment works even though it actually doesn't. Careful testing is required to determine whether apparent efficacy is genuine, or due to the placebo effect, confirmation bias and regression to the mean. Such testing has been done, and clearly shows that homeopathy is ineffective. Here's the summary of the evidence considered by the Commons Select Committee, which led to the recommendation that homeopathy no longer be offered by the NHS: https://publications.parliament.uk/p...ch/45/4502.htm
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

31st January 2021, 12:44 PM	#11
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	No it's not plain water, there is a science behind it and "like cures", and plain water to sleep, I'd be up all night. After menopause FOR ME and more chronic pain from OA and damaged surgery, my sleep went downhill, now at 82 I sleep 8-10 good deep hrs...and also in the whole mix is a HGH homeopathic gel I've been using for 2 yrs, my daughter and I, she 2.5 yrs, me 2 yrs. Sleep issues are major in our population and it's sad and very pathetic as it's so needed for healing. And to increase HGH as we age. No it's NOT plain water. We have a Homeopathic pharmacy in our town and they are major in homeopathics and all medicines, outside pharma, and they have been in business here since 1948, they were my first go to when I moved here 55 yrs. ago.
	Last edited by Caroline13; 31st January 2021 at 12:46 PM.

31st January 2021, 12:45 PM	#12
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,433	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No it's NOT plain water. It's not plain water, it's just scientifically indistinguishable from plain water. There's a subtle difference.

31st January 2021, 12:57 PM	#13
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	There is a science to it and Most of the world uses homeopathics. And it's inexpensive and no side effects and pharma would love love love it to be out of their hairs.
	Last edited by Caroline13; 31st January 2021 at 12:59 PM.

31st January 2021, 01:01 PM	#14
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,145	There is no science to it, science is what proved it did not work. The fact that many people still think it works is irrelevant. They are simply wrong.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

31st January 2021, 01:05 PM	#15
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,124	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No it's not plain water, there is a science behind it and "like cures", and plain water to sleep, I'd be up all night. After menopause FOR ME and more chronic pain from OA and damaged surgery, my sleep went downhill, now at 82 I sleep 8-10 good deep hrs...and also in the whole mix is a HGH homeopathic gel I've been using for 2 yrs, my daughter and I, she 2.5 yrs, me 2 yrs. If it's not plain water and contains any active ingredients then it is not "homeopathic" at all. You need to go look up what "homeopathic'" means. Someone is selling you an unlisted and probably untested medication. Do you like to gamble with your health like that? Quote: Sleep issues are major in our population and it's sad and very pathetic as it's so needed for healing. And to increase HGH as we age. What is this HGH? Quote: No it's NOT plain water. If it is truly made to homeopathic principles then it really is. In fact, it should be distilled water. Quote: We have a Homeopathic pharmacy in our town and they are major in homeopathics and all medicines, outside pharma, and they have been in business here since 1948, they were my first go to when I moved here 55 yrs. ago. Making profits off the local suckers. Like I said.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

31st January 2021, 04:00 PM	#16
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,187	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No it's NOT plain water. The point is that no homoeopath has ever been able to distinguish a blank pill from a homoeopathic pill, or a vial of water-based homoeopathic remedy from plain water, and so on. It is only the label on the bottle that distinguishes them. Have you heard of the homoeopathic concept of “grafting”? It is basically putting blank pills close to homoeopathic pills, and they will magically receive the homoeopathic effect too, or putting a bottle of water close to a bottle of homoeopathic remedy, and then the water bottle becomes that same homoeopathic remedy. I am not making this stuff up! It is standard homoeopathy going right back to Hahnemann himself. But homoeopathic believers normally have never heard about it. Strange, isn’t it? Believers likewise normally do not know how the sequential dilutions lead to not a single molecule of the remedy being left in the solution. But skeptics know these things, and we also understand why grafting works - and it does work! Finally, for fun, I can tell you that some believers have noticed that they can achieve the same wonderful effect of homoeopathy without having the actual remedy. Just write the name of the remedy on a slip of paper, and sleep with it under the pillow. This will have the same effect as the actual remedy. I kid you not! It actually works, and skeptics know why.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

31st January 2021, 04:20 PM	#17
hecd2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,103	It has been demonstrated that pink sugar pills are more efficacious than white sugar pills.
hecd2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,103

31st January 2021, 05:40 PM	#18
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs. If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority. Just blasting off what one knows of nothing. And yes I've tried some over the years that didn't do what I had hoped for, but that is TRUE with all medicines... I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's.

31st January 2021, 05:51 PM	#19
hecd2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,103	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs. that, of course is your choice. Quote: If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority. The authority comes from a consideration of the facts (not a single active molecule left in the dilution) and multiple double blind trials that show that homeopathy is no better than placebo. The easiest person to fool is yourself. Quote: I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's. Whereas I wouldn’t be alive without Rx medication. But that’s just another anecdote. The proof is in the trials.
hecd2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,103

31st January 2021, 06:38 PM	#20
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,124	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs. Boiron is the world's leading producer of homeopathic remedies. They are also one of the world's biggest pharmaceutical manufacturers. They make billions of Euros every year selling plain water and plain sugar pills to gullible people. No toxins, but also no medicine either. Unless your "illness" is thirst. Don't believe me? Check out their own website about how they make their money. Quote: If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority. Who says we haven't used them? Who says we haven't investigated them fully? Quote: Just blasting off what one knows of nothing. Whoops, wrong. We know a LOT more than most users of homeopathy. Quote: And yes I've tried some over the years that didn't do what I had hoped for, but that is TRUE with all medicines... I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's. Which "big pharma drug" in the 80's was that?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 31st January 2021 at 06:41 PM.

31st January 2021, 07:19 PM	#21
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,951	Originally Posted by steenkh Believers likewise normally do not know how the sequential dilutions lead to not a single molecule of the remedy being left in the solution. And the so-called "remedies" aren't even remedies themselves. Duck liver is for treating flu for example. Duck liver has no role in causing or curing flu.

31st January 2021, 08:54 PM	#22
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,145	Originally Posted by Caroline13 If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority. By looking at the results of carefully conducted testing. Personal, anecdotal experience often leads to the wrong conclusion, due to cognitive biases (particularly confirmation bias). That's why it was necessary to invent the scientific method.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

1st February 2021, 01:42 AM	#23
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 7,279	Originally Posted by Pixel42 There is no science to it, science is what proved it did not work. The fact that many people still think it works is irrelevant. They are simply wrong. I have to disagree. It works wonderfully for its intended purpose - separating the gullible from as much of their money as possible.
	__________________ "When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder. "It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels I hate bigots. Last edited by fishbob; 1st February 2021 at 01:44 AM.

1st February 2021, 01:52 AM	#24
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,217	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs. If you have not used them and had some degree of success then how can one speak with any authority. Just blasting off what one knows of nothing. And yes I've tried some over the years that didn't do what I had hoped for, but that is TRUE with all medicines... I've had my share of damage from big pharma drug, a trip to ER from one drug turned my mind around and this was in the 80's. Yeah, glad to get a sensible scientific voice to counter all the neighsayers. Unfortunately my scientific knowledge is not good enough but I am sure you can help. Can you please explain the science behind Homeopathic grafting and We know like cures like but what triggers the reaction. Is it the active molecules in the tablet? If it is the inactive molecules how does that work, scientifically?

1st February 2021, 01:57 AM	#25
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,145	Originally Posted by fishbob I have to disagree. It works wonderfully for its intended purpose - separating the gullible from as much of their money as possible. That's a little unfair, I think. If you read about Hahnemann he does seem to have been trying to do science, or what passed for it back then. Reading about his work and the trajectory it took, you can almost cry as you watch him grab hold of the wrong end of the stick and run straight down a blind alley with it. I think the majority of homeopaths are equally well meaning. They have less excuse than Hahnemann because the information that proves them wrong is freely available, but the belief that personal experience is a better source of reliable information than decades of careful scientific investigation is pervasive . Most people don't even know what cognitive biases are, and have no understanding of why anecdotal evidence is so unreliable.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

1st February 2021, 05:11 AM	#26
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 897	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No it's not plain water, *there is a science behind it* and *"like cures", and plain water to sleep, I'd be up all night. After menopause FOR ME and more chronic pain from OA and damaged surgery, my sleep went downhill, now at 82 I sleep 8-10 good deep hrs...and also in the whole mix is a HGH homeopathic gel I've been using for 2 yrs, my daughter and I, she 2.5 yrs, me 2 yrs. Sleep issues are major in our population and it's sad and very pathetic as it's so needed for healing. And to increase HGH as we age. No it's NOT plain water.* We have a Homeopathic pharmacy in our town and they are major in homeopathics and all medicines, outside pharma, and they have been in business here since 1948, they were my first go to when I moved here 55 yrs. ago. Citations needed, please? There is nothing I recognise as science, nor even healthcare, involved. So enlighten me, do? Unless we are counting deliberate use of placebo, which is not regarded as ethical over here. Glad to see someone mentioned Boiron and their millions and billions of euros profit: would this be Big Sugar or Big Water? The argument, given in a later post, about popularity reminds me of the one about flies and faecal matter...

1st February 2021, 05:18 AM	#27
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 897	Originally Posted by Pixel42 That's a little unfair, I think. If you read about Hahnemann he does seem to have been trying to do science, or what passed for it back then. Reading about his work and the trajectory it took, you can almost cry as you watch him grab hold of the wrong end of the stick and run straight down a blind alley with it. I think the majority of homeopaths are equally well meaning. They have less excuse than Hahnemann because the information that proves them wrong is freely available, but the belief that personal experience is a better source of reliable information than decades of careful scientific investigation is pervasive . Most people don't even know what cognitive biases are, and have no understanding of why anecdotal evidence is so unreliable. One can argue that what Hahnemann was doing was in some respects less harmful than a lot of standard "medical" practice at the time, but that's about as far as it goes and only for his time. Anyone advocating homeopathy now has deliberately, wilfully ignored all standard science and medicine and that alone takes them away from "well meaning": why not undertake nursing or medical or physio or psychology or pharmacy or whatever training instead? No one makes them become homeopaths, they decide to follow the grift, rather than do the hard work involved in all the standard training. Why is that?

1st February 2021, 05:47 AM	#28
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,697	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I'd rather support what I use any day in my long life that give my money to big pharma and their toxic drugs. ...snip.... In the UK lots of the homeopathic treatments for sale i.e to make money are produced by large “drug” companies with turnovers in hundreds of millions of euros. Why are those companies different to “other” big pharma?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

1st February 2021, 05:51 AM	#29
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 897	And if we are going to trade anecdotes...Teh Ebil Pig Farmer is keeping me alive with his nasty toxic drugs, which are minimising my cardiac problems and letting me have some sort of a life rather than being dead, which is a damn sight more than any homeopath can do.

1st February 2021, 12:59 PM	#30
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	I get it more and more on this one, the Skeptics group, and I too have skeptics about other things in life but on different medicines, protocols, therapies throughout the world, I believe and have used many others, and I count homeopathy as one of my great medicines in my life. For a while I was a member of a strictly homeopathic forum and these people had a hard time believing how so much of the world used toxic drugs. So with life and all things it's choices and what works in our lives. Just thinking too, the Royals have used homeopathy since the beginning of it's inception, true? They most likely used more than one type medicine. Peace out members.
	Last edited by Caroline13; 1st February 2021 at 01:03 PM.

1st February 2021, 01:01 PM	#31
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King And if we are going to trade anecdotes...Teh Ebil Pig Farmer is keeping me alive with his nasty toxic drugs, which are minimising my cardiac problems and letting me have some sort of a life rather than being dead, which is a damn sight more than any homeopath can do. That is GOOD, and many of the world uses several or more type medicines to keep them in good health and alive.

1st February 2021, 01:34 PM	#32
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,573	Originally Posted by Caroline13 That is GOOD, and many of the world uses several or more type medicines to keep them in good health and alive. Except, of course, the various herbs and mostly distilled water do not work. Smallpox has been completely and utterly eradicated by vaccination. After centuries of using Ayurvedic medicine in India life expectancy was a constant 25 years. With a slow acceptance of science based medicine starting about 1920, life expectancy is now now close to 70. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ndia-all-time/
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

1st February 2021, 01:42 PM	#33
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,145	Originally Posted by Caroline13 That is GOOD, and many of the world uses several or more type medicines to keep them in good health and alive. Some of the types of medicine used keep them in good health and alive. Homeopathy is not one of them.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

1st February 2021, 03:57 PM	#34
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Some of the types of medicine used keep them in good health and alive. Homeopathy is not one of them. You believe what you choose to and those of us who believe in homeopathy will do the same. It's good to be skeptical but it's good to keep an open mind too.

1st February 2021, 04:21 PM	#35
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,124	Originally Posted by Caroline13 You believe what you choose to and those of us who believe in homeopathy will do the same. It's good to be skeptical but it's good to keep an open mind too. Modern medicine works DESPITE whatever you believe. Homeopathy works only IF you believe. There's an old saying: Skeptics keep an open mind. But not so open that their brains fall out.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

1st February 2021, 07:12 PM	#36
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,573	Originally Posted by Caroline13 You believe what you choose to and those of us who believe in homeopathy will do the same. It's good to be skeptical but it's good to keep an open mind too. Not when your brains fall out!
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick