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Tags Australia incidents , Australia issues , Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , Google incidents , Google issues , News Corp

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Old 22nd February 2021, 09:44 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yeah, this isn't quite true and so is one of the other issues I have with the whole thing. ISF would not be affected by this law... unless the Australian Government decided to declare that ISF was a responsible digital platform.
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. I very much doubt anyone is going after ISF any time soon. My goal was to highlight exactly what activity this law is targeting, and that it is in fact standard behavior that makes up the core of how the internet works, just as Google has indicated.


Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And the thing is that there is nothing in the code that defines how they do that, it's simply left up to the Minister's discretion, and there is no appeal to that process. They declare you are an RDP and you now have to abide by their code and negotiate payment with Australia's RNOs for how much you are going to pay them each time someone posts a link to an article, along with all the other stuff that RDPs have to do under the Code. Your only other choices are to ban links to RNOs and/or to totally ban Australians.

We know what the real criteria is and motivation is. It has nothing to do with Google or Facebook harming these companies because they benefit enormously from the service they receive. It has nothing to do with the behavior being harmful to consumers, because it's a service that benefits them as well. It's not even about raising tax revenue from business conducted within Australia to pay for domestic programs. They are targeting profitable foreign companies to raid their profits and sign the money over to politically powerful domestic companies.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 09:58 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Governments need to enact legislation to deal with these powerful international companies.
Why? What activity are you trying to discourage?

When operating as intended, search engines, etc are a service that benefits everyone. They benefit the media sites by sending the, traffic interested in their content and they benefit consumers by helping them find what they are looking for.


Yes, if they cross certain lines it can be a problem and some things do need to be regulated, but what specific need do these regulations address?

Originally Posted by Darat View Post

It’s akin to the EU wide decisions against MS and the like.
The EU decision against MS was targeting specific business practices that undermined competitive markets. What similarities do you see in these Australian laws?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 10:14 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Should a country not be able to enforce its own laws if the company breaking its laws is an international company?
Again using ISF as an example:

Should China be able to enforce it's laws regarding what you can and can't say about Tibet on a site like ISF operating outside Chinese borders?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 10:48 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Why? What activity are you trying to discourage?

When operating as intended, search engines, etc are a service that benefits everyone. They benefit the media sites by sending the, traffic interested in their content and they benefit consumers by helping them find what they are looking for.


Yes, if they cross certain lines it can be a problem and some things do need to be regulated, but what specific need do these regulations address?



The EU decision against MS was targeting specific business practices that undermined competitive markets. What similarities do you see in these Australian laws?
….

(Again this doesn’t apply to the current Australia v Facebook stare-off as Facebook is ensuring it is following the Australian laws - Australia not liking the consequences of its own laws is its problem.)
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Old 22nd February 2021, 10:52 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Again using ISF as an example:

Should China be able to enforce it's laws regarding what you can and can't say about Tibet on a site like ISF operating outside Chinese borders?
In case I wasn’t very clear - I am talking about a country taking action for the laws it has within its borders.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 10:53 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Should a country not be able to enforce its own laws if the company breaking its laws is an international company?
Maybe they should, but Facebook isn't breaking any current Australian laws, and if Australia does pass that Law, then continuing to ban links to Aussie news sites will ensure they continue to not break that Law. If that happens, there will only be one loser, and it won't be Facebook

Please note how the rest of the world enforces copyright laws in China
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:33 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Maybe they should, but Facebook isn't breaking any current Australian laws, and if Australia does pass that Law, then continuing to ban links to Aussie news sites will ensure they continue to not break that Law. If that happens, there will only be one loser, and it won't be Facebook

Please note how the rest of the world enforces copyright laws in China
….
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
….

(Again this doesn’t apply to the current Australia v Facebook stare-off as Facebook is ensuring it is following the Australian laws - Australia not liking the consequences of its own laws is its problem.)
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:01 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
At the moment. the Aussie media giants are losing out while Facebook is losing nothing, they can keep this up as long as they like with no impact on their bottom line - and I hope they do.
I'm okay with that.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 02:57 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Really? You've never looked for a date, a number, a capital city, a year of birth/death or thousands of other things that are immediately answered by the short summary?
That's a good point. Yes I have looked for those sorts of things and in some cases the result was obvious in the preview text and I didn't click on the link in those cases. Often that sort of question is answered by google without even supplying a link (like for instance I want to convert miles to kilometers, I enter it into google and the first result is a little calculator supplied by google).
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Old 23rd February 2021, 03:00 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yes, then complete song lyrics, band members, cast members, list - say all movies of 1984, famous physicists etc all without learning Google and seeing someone else’s advertising.

ETA: thinking more about it, I can also see short instruction lists for problems I am searching. So many times you need not leave the Google world.
Weird. While it's true that there are some situations where I don't have to click on any link, they're pretty rare. Maybe I'm not using google as much as you guys are though.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 03:04 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Really? You've never looked for a date, a number, a capital city, a year of birth/death or thousands of other things that are immediately answered by the short summary?
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Definitely for me a lot of my searches do only result in my needing the google results page.
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That's a good point. Yes I have looked for those sorts of things and in some cases the result was obvious in the preview text and I didn't click on the link in those cases. Often that sort of question is answered by google without even supplying a link (like for instance I want to convert miles to kilometers, I enter it into google and the first result is a little calculator supplied by google).
How many of these cases have data from news websites? That is one who will benefit from the changes? I suggest none. This means that these posts are irrelevant. The changes to the law are only for news websites.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:06 AM   #212
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Facebook is now reportedly making deals with the media organizations in the wake of promised changes to government legislation.
Quote:
Facebook will walk back its block on Australian users sharing news on its site after the government agreed to make amendments to the proposed media bargaining laws that would force major tech giants to pay news outlets for their content.

It follows days of negotiations between the government and the social media company, including discussions between Treasurer Josh Frydenberg and Facebook boss Mark Zuckerberg.
Quote:
The amendments to the code include a range of changes, including that final offer arbitration — something both Google and Facebook were strongly opposed to — is considered "a last resort where commercial deals cannot be reached by requiring mediation, in good faith, to occur prior to arbitration for no longer than two months".
Quote:
The Treasurer will also have to give advance notice to a platform if it is going to be "designated" or included under the code, and also has to take into account any deals the company has done.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-...-code/13173984
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Old 23rd February 2021, 06:45 AM   #213
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Aussie government blinks first!
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Old 23rd February 2021, 09:13 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Weird. While it's true that there are some situations where I don't have to click on any link, they're pretty rare. Maybe I'm not using google as much as you guys are though.
I've seen many cases where the snippet is misleading, plus I like to get an idea of where the information is really coming from so I can judge it's reliability. This means I almost always follow the links even when it seems like the information I was looking for search results.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 12:27 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Aussie government blinks first!
I don't think too many people are surprised by that. I would assume the public pressure would be enough to get them to ease up a bit.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:31 PM   #216
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Yeah, have you seen the details of the last-minute changes to the legislation?

Quote:
Late on Tuesday, the government announced changes to the news media bargaining code in response to concerns from Facebook about the operation of the code.

Under the amendments, the government will not make the code apply to a digital platform if the platform can demonstrate that it has made “a significant contribution to the sustainability of the Australian news industry” through deals made with news media companies.

This is ultimately a decision of the minister.

Labor, the Greens, and independent senator Rex Patrick are now concerned this means that larger media outlets will get deals, while smaller outlets will fall through the cracks, because they won’t have the ability to lobby the prime minister or anyone in government on whether they have been able to get a deal with Facebook.

“The minister won’t designate because the deals will have been done with the big guys, and the little guys are going to miss out and the regional guys are going to miss out,” Patrick said.
source

This means yay for Murdoch, boo for small community groups and local organisations.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 08:53 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This means yay for Murdoch, boo for small community groups and local organisations.
Rich mates looked after again.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 09:37 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Rich mates looked after again.
Exactly. I am seeing reports that Facebook has provided a method for non-multimillion dollar media empires to get their pages restored, but they're sure not drawing attention to it.
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