Capitalism and Its Beneficiaries, Rich People, Are the Spreaders of Coronavirus

[dann]

If the rich created what exactly? Covid-19? They didn't!
But they helped spread the infection as tourists, bar owners and local authorities catering to business interests at the beginning of the pandemic (see OP!) and later on as employers, who let people work and live under conditions that help spread the virus among (primarily) poor people. The conditions of meatpackers in the John Oliver video mentioned in post 597 are grotesque - with or without Covid-19!

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by dann

But doesn't.

Which has little to do with Capitalism and everything to do with factors unique to America itself. No one is saying we are perfect and should never change.

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Of course, there are substitutes for capitalism! That you don't like them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Ok, what are they. And no, I don’t like textbook socialism or communism or Marxism or whatever.

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There are even capitalist substitutes for neo-liberal versions of capitalism, but I guess people who suggest this in Texas will probably be considered to be communists or Antifa.

A capitalist substitute for ... capitalism? Makes no sense. Capitalism is capitalism; you didn’t specify “Texas Capitalism,” or “neo-liberal” Capitalism in your OP. And this Texan is all for learning from other countries and doing things differently.

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There are also alternatives to neo-liberal pandemic response, like TeTrIs or face masks, for instance.

Sure, but you are referring to sociocultural factors and not economic factors.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by dann

Of course, there are substitutes for capitalism!

There really aren't, though. Every time a substitution has been attempted, people just do capitalism anyway. The Soviet Union evolved a whole black market to do capitalism with.

[dann]

Every time a substitution has been attempted, the leading imperialist state at the time, be it England or the USA, is doing its utmost to get rid of it instead of letting 'people' do what they wanted. Much like Sweden trying to force its neo-liberal approach to the pandemic onto its neighbors. (Just a reminder that this is the thread about capitalism & Covid.)

[dann]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Which has little to do with Capitalism and everything to do with factors unique to America itself. No one is saying we are perfect and should never change.

So why don't you?! By the way, for some reason similar arguments never seem to occur to neo-liberals whenever other societies are discussed, like: 'Chernobyl had little to do with socialism and everything with factors unique to Russia itself.'

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Ok, what are they. And no, I don’t like textbook socialism or communism or Marxism or whatever. A capitalist substitute for ... capitalism? Makes no sense. Capitalism is capitalism; you didn’t specify “Texas Capitalism,” or “neo-liberal” Capitalism in your OP. And this Texan is all for learning from other countries and doing things differently.

Tell us about "textbook socialism or communism or Marxism or whatever". Can you present us with the titles of the textbooks you have read on the subject? Why did you replace "neo-liberal" with "..."? So why don't you learn from other countries? Until recently, your argument for maintaining your state's pandemic response was that Texans just wouldn't put up with pandemic restrictions, and I guess Texans also love deregulation of energy. Your lie that nobody could have foreseen winter storms is duly noted:

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In 2011, Texas faced a very similar storm that froze natural gas wells and affected coal plants and wind turbines, leading to power outages across the state.
Texas leaders failed to heed warnings that left the state's power grid vulnerable to winter extremes, experts say (TheTexasTribune, Feb. 17, 2021)

It was just as predictable as the pandemic was when you wrote about how well Texas was doing: It was already there!

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Sure, but you are referring to sociocultural factors and not economic factors.

So your textbooks don't say anything about how economic factors and sociocultural actors are interconnected?!

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by dann

So why don't you?!

Mostly because not enough of us want to. But that’s changing, slowly.

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By the way, for some reason similar arguments never seem to occur to neo-liberals whenever other societies are discussed, like: 'Chernobyl had little to do with socialism and everything with factors unique to Russia itself.'

I can only tell you what arguments occur to me.

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Tell us about "textbook socialism or communism or Marxism or whatever".

Sure. It sucks. Everywhere it has been attempted has seemed to lead to cults of personality and abject failure.

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Can you present us with the titles of the textbooks you have read on the subject?

Here’s what I do know: I’ve heard a lot about what socialism is not: it’s not the Nordic countries, it’s not the NHS, it’s not all the things that people who don’t get it have labeled “socialism.” But I’ve seen very little about what it actually is.

I’ve seen lots of countries that call themselves Communist, but I’ve also heard about how they aren’t really Communist -not really. They aren’t doing what Karl Marx wrote.

So, while I can’t be bothered to read any actual textbooks specifically about these ideas, I can read about history and other commentary and see that whatever has been labeled socialist or communist, isn’t really those things. Real-deal socialism/communism hasn’t actually been implemented in the real world. And the ersatz attempts at the ideology have either outright failed or had to scale back whatever real-deal Marxist/Maoist/Whoeverist (always associated with a particular writer or dictator) ideals they may have espoused to get them in power.

I think the original idea had something to do with Socialism being the next stage after Capitalism, then naturally evolving to the Utopia of Communism where there are no classes and everything is commonly owned. But it always ends up being a, as I said, cult of personality where the leader/party becomes the elite ruling class and everyone else is the working class -same thing as Capitalism, really but totally unsustainable. Capitalism has the distinction of being, at the very least, sustainable.

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Why did you replace "neo-liberal" with "..."? So why don't you learn from other countries? Until recently, your argument for maintaining your state's pandemic response was that Texans just wouldn't put up with pandemic restrictions, and I guess Texans also love deregulation of energy. Your lie that nobody could have foreseen winter storms is duly noted:

It was just as predictable as the pandemic was when you wrote about how well Texas was doing: It was already there!

Blah, blah, blah. You are really good at pointing out the flaws with Capitalism (and America, specifically) and you are really good at spouting terms; but, you are terrible at illustrating a viable alternative.

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So your textbooks don't say anything about how economic factors and sociocultural actors are interconnected?!

Of course they do! But I didn’t need a textbook to know that societies with different cultures might have different priorities and ways of thinking that are reflected in their economic policies.

[dann]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Mostly because not enough of us want to. But that’s changing, slowly.
I can only tell you what arguments occur to me.
Sure. It sucks. Everywhere it has been attempted has seemed to lead to cults of personality and abject failure. Here’s what I do know: I’ve heard a lot about what socialism is not: it’s not the Nordic countries, it’s not the NHS, it’s not all the things that people who don’t get it have labeled “socialism.” But I’ve seen very little about what it actually is.

So all your stories about "textbook" socialism, communism, and Marxism are as made up as The Big Dog's stories about the Atheist Bible. That's what I thought. Even before Trump, the political system of the USA was a textbook example of cults of personality. Oh, the things that capitalism leads to ...

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I’ve seen lots of countries that call themselves Communist, but I’ve also heard about how they aren’t really Communist -not really. They aren’t doing what Karl Marx wrote.

Tell us more about what Karl Marx wrote. There's gotta be textbooks, right?!

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So, while I can’t be bothered to read any actual textbooks specifically about these ideas, I can read about history and other commentary and see that whatever has been labeled socialist or communist, isn’t really those things. Real-deal socialism/communism hasn’t actually been implemented in the real world. And the ersatz attempts at the ideology have either outright failed or had to scale back whatever real-deal Marxist/Maoist/Whoeverist (always associated with a particular writer or dictator) ideals they may have espoused to get them in power.

Yes, "writers" are very suspicious dudes. Tell us about "real-deal socialism/communism": What is that? You are the one who always wants to talk about that instead of the theme of this thread.

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I think the original idea had something to do with Socialism being the next stage after Capitalism, then naturally evolving to the Utopia of Communism where there are no classes and everything is commonly owned. But it always ends up being a, as I said, cult of personality where the leader/party becomes the elite ruling class and everyone else is the working class -same thing as Capitalism, really but totally unsustainable. Capitalism has the distinction of being, at the very least, sustainable.

Cult of personality again. Interesting, coming from a guy who lives in a country that turns each and every election into a contest between different cults of personality with all of the personalities representing "the elite ruling class".
If there is one thing capitalism isn't, it's sustainable. It's an absurd statement, coming from a Texan.

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Blah, blah, blah. You are really good at pointing out the flaws with Capitalism (and America, specifically) and you are really good at spouting terms; but, you are terrible at illustrating a viable alternative.

Thank you. Yes, I am good at pointing out the flaws of capitalism. You haven't seen me "illustrating a viable alternative." Why on Earth would I do that?!

[dann]

The Daily Social Distancing Show (Feb. 25, 2021):
Black Vaccine Inequality - If You Don’t Know, Now You Know

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by dann

So all your stories about "textbook" socialism, communism, and Marxism

What stories? I used a common phrase and shared my understanding of those thing. Now, maybe my understanding is flawed and you are free to correct me about that. But I doubt you will. Like I said; you are very good at complaining but terrible at solving.

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are as made up as The Big Dog's stories about the Atheist Bible. That's what I thought. Even before Trump, the political system of the USA was a textbook example of cults of personality. Oh, the things that capitalism leads to ...

Trumpism is a cult of personality, I will grant that much. But to say that the US was a textbook example of such before Trump? That’s a terrible take.

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Tell us more about what Karl Marx wrote. There's gotta be textbooks, right?!

Tell us more about cults of personality. There’s gotta be a better textbook than Wikipedia, right?

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Yes, "writers" are very suspicious dudes.

You said “suspicious” not me. My position isn’t so much about the “writers” but about the architects. Lenin. Trotsky. Mao.

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Tell us about "real-deal socialism/communism": What is that? You are the one who always wants to talk about that instead of the theme of this thread.

I happy to drop socialism/communism if that’s not what you are pursuing as a solution. What I’d like to elicit from you is a solution. Socialism/communism is usually presented as the solution to Capitalism’s flaws, but if you have something else in mind, I’m all ears. It seems though that you’d like to dictate the terms of the discussion. You’d like this to be endless complaining about Capitalism, apparently, and nothing else. Not solutions. Well, I’d like to see the conversation turn from complaints to solutions. If you don’t want to engage that, well that’s fine. I do and it’s within the topic of the thread so I’ll continue pressing the issue, thank you very much.

In my view, the solution is to reform Capitalism. I think your argument is entirely too simplistic, fundamentally, “Capitalism sucks.” We get it. What’s the solution.

There comes a time when a complainer has to present a way to resolve the complaint. We are way past that time in this discussion.

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Cult of personality again. Interesting, coming from a guy who lives in a country that turns each and every election into a contest between different cults of personality with all of the personalities representing "the elite ruling class".

What a ridiculous statement. It comes from a guy who obviously can see things only on the very surface. There isn’t one person whose ideas dictate everything about our economy and government. In the modern world, I’m thinking Cuba, where Fidel Castro established and enshrined into the very Constitution of Cuba his ideas as unalterable. His face and likeness is everywhere in Cuba. He made it so no one would ever dare challenge him, even when he’s dead! That’s a cult of personality.

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If there is one thing capitalism isn't, it's sustainable. It's an absurd statement, coming from a Texan.

Ridiculous. Capitalism has been the engine of growth and sustainability of every major nation in the world. Even China had to abandon the ideas of Mao and embrace some capitalistic ideas to keep up. Capitalism may evolve and reform but it isn’t going anywhere. Especially since not even you, a fierce critic, can present a coherent and viable alternative.

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Thank you. Yes, I am good at pointing out the flaws of capitalism. You haven't seen me "illustrating a viable alternative." Why on Earth would I do that?!

Because complaints without solutions are just so much tedious uselessness. And because you don’t have an alternative.

You sound like the Republicans in the US.

“The ACA is horrible and we have to repeal and replace it!”

“Ok, with what?”

“Errr...ummm...repeal and replace!”

Ad nauseum.

[dann]

As always, bloody boring and based on hearsay and no real knowledge of anything. Common phrases and vague ideas. Truly ad nauseam!

Originally Posted by xjx388

What stories? I used a common phrase and shared my understanding of those thing. Now, maybe my understanding is flawed and you are free to correct me about that. But I doubt you will. Like I said; you are very good at complaining but terrible at solving. Trumpism is a cult of personality, I will grant that much. But to say that the US was a textbook example of such before Trump? That’s a terrible take.

The two political parties in the USA serve one purpose only: to choose a personality, the prime specimen of the American Dream to compete for the post as the leader of the country for the next four years, be it Obama, Hillary, Trump or Biden, presented with more or less meaningless slogans that each and every voter can interpret to mean whatever they want it to.

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Tell us more about cults of personality. There’s gotta be a better textbook than Wikipedia, right?

You are the one who brought up cults of personality. You just have a hard time recognizing them in your own backyard, which is not Wikipedia's problem.

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You said “suspicious” not me. My position isn’t so much about the “writers” but about the architects. Lenin. Trotsky. Mao. I happy to drop socialism/communism if that’s not what you are pursuing as a solution. What I’d like to elicit from you is a solution. Socialism/communism is usually presented as the solution to Capitalism’s flaws, but if you have something else in mind, I’m all ears. It seems though that you’d like to dictate the terms of the discussion. You’d like this to be endless complaining about Capitalism, apparently, and nothing else. Not solutions. Well, I’d like to see the conversation turn from complaints to solutions. If you don’t want to engage that, well that’s fine. I do and it’s within the topic of the thread so I’ll continue pressing the issue, thank you very much.

Yes, what something is usually "presented as" is good enough for you. And writers or dictators, they're all the same to you. What I like isn't really the question. What this thread is about is the point. And you would like to turn it into a thread where you present your complaints about whatever you imagine is socialism, communism, Marxism, instead of sticking to the point, which is how capitalism has mismanaged the pandemic response. The worse your Neo-liberalist state Texas is doing, the more disinclined you become to discuss its coronavirus strategy, which is why your posts are one long line of attempts to derail the thread.

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In my view, the solution is to reform Capitalism. I think your argument is entirely too simplistic, fundamentally, “Capitalism sucks.” We get it. What’s the solution.

Yes, capitalism sucks at responding to the pandemic, but I have actually been more specific than that, and the more laissez-faire the version of capitalism is, the worse it is at fighting the pandemic. You don't get it because you are not interested in getting it.

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There comes a time when a complainer has to present a way to resolve the complaint. We are way past that time in this discussion.

You're the complainer. I am the critic of the way capitalism and its beneficiaries, rich people, have spread the virus and are still doing what they can to get first in line for vaccines instead of letting it go to the people who need it the most.

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What a ridiculous statement. It comes from a guy who obviously can see things only on the very surface. There isn’t one person whose ideas dictate everything about our economy and government. In the modern world, I’m thinking Cuba, where Fidel Castro established and enshrined into the very Constitution of Cuba his ideas as unalterable. His face and likeness is everywhere in Cuba. He made it so no one would ever dare challenge him, even when he’s dead! That’s a cult of personality.

You seem to confuse cult of personality with dictators, which is probably part of the reason why you don't recognize the U.S. version of cults of personality. I doubt that Fidel Castro enshrined much into the Cuban Constitution. Could you at least come up with a quotation to illustrate your point? Doesn't it say so in one of your textbooks?

Yes, there is a cult of personality in Cuba surrounding Fidel Castro. He was the leader of the Cuban revolution, so it's no surprise, really. There is a cult of personality surrounding Lincoln in the USA - "even when he's dead." There's a Kennedy cult as well even though he never freed any slaves. But that's not a cult of personality in your opinion because cults of personality in your opinion only occurs when they are cults of people you don't like.
By the way, Castro disapproved of any attempts to worship him, one of the reasons why you find big murals of Che and Camilo (and a memorial to Martí) at the Plaza de la Revolución, but so far none of Castro. Otherwise, Cuba is so pleasantly free of cults of living politicians that you probably don't even know the name of the present head of state.

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Ridiculous. Capitalism has been the engine of growth and sustainability of every major nation in the world. Even China had to abandon the ideas of Mao and embrace some capitalistic ideas to keep up. Capitalism may evolve and reform but it isn’t going anywhere. Especially since not even you, a fierce critic, can present a coherent and viable alternative.

Yes, China is capitalist! And you actually seem to be proud of it! Mao probably knew as little of Marx's analysis of capitalism as you do. And no, I'm not going to provide you with any kind of alternative. You have already pretended to know all about it based on your "textbooks", which turned out to be nothing at all.
However, it is very obvious that China's "embrace some capitalistic ideas" didn't go all the way in their response to the pandemic, which I bet the Chinese are quite content with:
USA: 1,563
China: 3

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Because complaints without solutions are just so much tedious uselessness. And because you don’t have an alternative.

Then stop complaining.

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You sound like the Republicans in the US.

“The ACA is horrible and we have to repeal and replace it!”

“Ok, with what?”

“Errr...ummm...repeal and replace!”

Ad nauseum.

Yes, ad nauseam. I guess reminding you of the theme of this thread will be in vain, but if you have any comments about the current vaccine inequality, feel free to share.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by dann

As always, bloody boring and based on hearsay and no real knowledge of anything. Common phrases and vague ideas. Truly ad nauseam!

Excellent summation of your little thread here.

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The two political parties in the USA serve one purpose only: to choose a personality, the prime specimen of the American Dream to compete for the post as the leader of the country for the next four years, be it Obama, Hillary, Trump or Biden, presented with more or less meaningless slogans that each and every voter can interpret to mean whatever they want it to.

LOL, so not cults of personality but run-of-the-mill politicking.

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You are the one who brought up cults of personality. You just have a hard time recognizing them in your own backyard, which is not Wikipedia's problem.

Your complete misapprehension of what exactly a cult of personality is is your own problem. It seems you didn't even read the very article you linked to which is in perfect synch with what I'm talking about:

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The term came to prominence in 1956, in Nikita Khrushchev's secret speech On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences, given on the final day of the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. In the speech, Khrushchev, who was the First Secretary of the Communist Party – in effect, the leader of the country – criticized the lionization and idealization of Joseph Stalin, and by implication, his Communist contemporary Mao Zedong, as being contrary to Marxist doctrine. The speech was later made public and was part of the "de-Stalinization" process in the Soviet Union.

And it's interesting that once "de-Stalinaztion" began, it ultimately led to the end of the Soviet Union itself.

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Yes, what something is usually "presented as" is good enough for you. And writers or dictators, they're all the same to you.

Nope. I specifically said I didn't have a problem with the writers as much as I did the dictators.

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What I like isn't really the question. What this thread is about is the point. And you would like to turn it into a thread where you present your complaints about whatever you imagine is socialism, communism, Marxism, instead of sticking to the point, which is how capitalism has mismanaged the pandemic response. The worse your Neo-liberalist state Texas is doing, the more disinclined you become to discuss its coronavirus strategy, which is why your posts are one long line of attempts to derail the thread.

It's not a derail to ask naturally-arising questions that spring from the topic of the thread. If Capitalism is the problem, what's the solution? This is all an elaborate dodge on your part to avoid having to show your hand. I can infer what's in your hand based on your body of work on this forum. It's very interesting to me that you refuse to answer a simple question about solutions.

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Yes, capitalism sucks at responding to the pandemic, but I have actually been more specific than that, and the more laissez-faire the version of capitalism is, the worse it is at fighting the pandemic. You don't get it because you are not interested in getting it.

I get it. I have the same complaints. Now what? What does that get us? Absolutely nothing! What would be important to do next is to talk about how we resolve the problems we both agree exist.

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You're the complainer. I am the critic of the way capitalism and its beneficiaries, rich people, have spread the virus and are still doing what they can to get first in line for vaccines instead of letting it go to the people who need it the most.

Who do you think was/will be first in line for the vaccine in Cuba? You don't think Raul Castro and his lackies will get the first doses?

And let's talk about this country you brought up who has handled the pandemic so well, Cuba. First of all, I don't trust their numbers given the history of hiding multiple human rights violations and the state-controlled media. But let's grant that they've done better than the US. Wonderful. What about the bread shortages and the fact that the people there can't even get access to the basic goods and services we take for granted? What about the fact that they have no access to a free press or even the freedom to criticize their government? You have to ignore their record on basic human rights to praise them for their (dubious) success in handling the panemic. Ask a Cuban refugee living in Miami if they would trade places with their former countrymen.

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You seem to confuse cult of personality with dictators,

No sir -you seem to forget that the term was coined to refer to exactly those dictators.

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which is probably part of the reason why you don't recognize the U.S. version of cults of personality. I doubt that Fidel Castro enshrined much into the Cuban Constitution. Could you at least come up with a quotation to illustrate your point? Doesn't it say so in one of your textbooks?

If you'd like to live in the fantasy world in which Fidel Castro didn't have much to do with the 1976 Cuban Constitution or his brother had nothing to do 2019 Constitution . . . well, I hope you have a cool pet unicorn there.

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Yes, there is a cult of personality in Cuba surrounding Fidel Castro. He was the leader of the Cuban revolution, so it's no surprise, really. There is a cult of personality surrounding Lincoln in the USA - "even when he's dead." There's a Kennedy cult as well even though he never freed any slaves.

Holy Moley. This is such a bad take ... yeesh.

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But that's not a cult of personality in your opinion because cults of personality in your opinion only occurs when they are cults of people you don't like.

Nope. I understand what a cult of personality is; I'm sorry you don't.

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By the way, Castro disapproved of any attempts to worship him, one of the reasons why you find big murals of Che and Camilo (and a memorial to Martí) at the Plaza de la Revolución, but so far none of Castro. Otherwise, Cuba is so pleasantly free of cults of living politicians that you probably don't even know the name of the present head of state.

Raul Castro.

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Yes, China is capitalist! And you actually seem to be proud of it! Mao probably knew as little of Marx's analysis of capitalism as you do. And no, I'm not going to provide you with any kind of alternative. You have already pretended to know all about it based on your "textbooks", which turned out to be nothing at all.

Nothing but a dodge. You simply don't have an alternative, or if you do, it's (based on some other of your posts, if I'm remembering correctly) "Let's give real-deal Marxism a try!"

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However, it is very obvious that China's "embrace some capitalistic ideas" didn't go all the way in their response to the pandemic, which I bet the Chinese are quite content with:
USA: 1,563
China: 3

Yay! They did pandemic good! Now, if they would just allow a free press, stopped "silencing" dissidents, stopped torturing ethnic minorities . . . you get the idea.

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Then stop complaining.

This dodge is nowhere as good as your last one.

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Yes, ad nauseam. I guess reminding you of the theme of this thread will be in vain, but if you have any comments about the current vaccine inequality, feel free to share.

That's better!