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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:44 AM   #1
MaartenVergu
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No one can grasp 'time'; Not even a scientist

If there was an infinite amount of time in the past, then it would have taken infinite time for time to reach to our present moment. We would never meet the present moment. So, we can't postulate that there was an infinite amount of time before our present moment. But it's also hard to grasp that there was a fixed amount of time in our past and 'nothing before that'. How can we have an idea of what that means? We can't. Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality.
That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.

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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:02 AM   #2
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tl;dr
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:36 AM   #3
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The idea that infinities can't be traversed is not well founded.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:27 AM   #4
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Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang?
Oo. Oo. Let me -- God!

And I'm still placing my money on the hare not the tortoise.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:50 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
No math or science
Propositional analysis FTW.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:51 AM   #7
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I can't =/= no one can

There's a lot of things I can't grasp but I don't assume my lack of understanding is universal.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 11:48 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
If there was an infinite amount of time in the past, then it would have taken infinite time for time to reach to our present moment. We would never meet the present moment. So, we can't postulate that there was an infinite amount of time before our present moment. But it's also hard to grasp that there was a fixed amount of time in our past and 'nothing before that'. How can we have an idea of what that means? We can't. Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality.
That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.
Well I guess that might explain why gods never turn up to meet the present moment.

It's almost like "infinite" is a purely abstract concept created by humans (like "gods").

But seriously (sorta), isn’t “infinite amount” an oxymoron? Please explain how infinite can be an amount . . .

To save the infinite vs eternal debate, let’s just say time/existence is eternal.

Or we could say eternity is the infinity of time/existence.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 11:54 AM   #9
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Is this to do with Zeno again?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 01:04 PM   #10
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Time is finite. For example, I do not have time for this. Case closed.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 01:16 PM   #11
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No one can grasp 'time'; Not even a scientist

Douglas Adams understood time perfectly well:

ďTime is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.Ē
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Old 2nd October 2021, 02:17 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang?
The Big Crunch of the previous universe.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 02:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The Big Crunch of the previous universe.
Did that occur in *time*?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:03 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Did that occur in *time*?
Yes, unless time was "out to lunch"
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:05 PM   #15
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According to present scientific theories, time started when Big Bang happened. But as far as I know no major scientific theory prohibits infinite future.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:16 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
According to present scientific theories, time started when Big Bang happened. But as far as I know no major scientific theory prohibits infinite future.
How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.
Why does the initial act of beginning require time?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:23 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why does the initial act of beginning require time?
To claim The Singularity changed it's state of existence (acted) in no time is to say it didn't do it. Doing is an act that takes time (doing time).
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:26 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.
Time and space in relativity theory are tightly connected. That's why it's often called space-time. So "before Bing Bang" is probably a wrong question regardless of how counter intuitive this sounds. By "Big Bang happened" I meant time started with Big Bang.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:30 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
To claim The Singularity changed it's state of existence (acted) in no time is to say it didn't do it. Doing is an act that takes time (doing time).
Did space also exist? Or did the universe change its state of existence nowhere? Seems that for consistency if time was required then space was equally required. Therefore no big bang because no state of existence was changed.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:35 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
Time and space in relativity theory are tightly connected. That's why it's often called space-time. So "before Bing Bang" is probably a wrong question regardless of how counter intuitive this sounds. By "Big Bang happened" I meant time started with Big Bang.
Yet the theory seems to have no problem with describing before Bing Bang as being a Singularity. My question is how to change from Singularity to Bing Bang in no time at all?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Did space also exist? Or did the universe change its state of existence nowhere? Seems that for consistency if time was required then space was equally required. Therefore no big bang because no state of existence was changed.
I'm not the one claiming things didn't exist before Big Bang, or even that there was or wasn't a Big Bang.

Did a Singularity exist before Big Bang? Please don't ask me to define "exist", you do that if you have a problem with the word.

To answer your question - My current "best guess" conclusion is that what exists now has existed eternally in some form or another. The state of existence is constantly changing so it would be no surprise to me if it was much different in the past, in fact it would be a surprise to me if it wasn't. I accept something from something, I don't accept something from nothing. I don't accept time began from no time. I don't accept that time is an actual, substantive thing. Time to me is merely a generic term we apply to actual, substantive things doing things compared to other actual, substantive things doing different things.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 04:12 PM   #23
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Somebody got give The Beginner’s Book of Philosophy for their birthday. Happy Birthday. I look forward to additional threads articulating poorly understood concepts.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 04:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Somebody got give The Beginnerís Book of Philosophy for their birthday. Happy Birthday. I look forward to additional threads articulating poorly understood concepts.
Ad hominin attacks the best argument you got?

Oh, how droll.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 04:45 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm not the one claiming things didn't exist before Big Bang, or even that there was or wasn't a Big Bang.

Did a Singularity exist before Big Bang? Please don't ask me to define "exist", you do that if you have a problem with the word.

To answer your question - My current "best guess" conclusion is that what exists now has existed eternally in some form or another. The state of existence is constantly changing so it would be no surprise to me if it was much different in the past, in fact it would be a surprise to me if it wasn't. I accept something from something, I don't accept something from nothing. I don't accept time began from no time. I don't accept that time is an actual, substantive thing. Time to me is merely a generic term we apply to actual, substantive things doing things compared to other actual, substantive things doing different things.
That's the thing. We don't know.

That doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 04:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That's the thing. We don't know.

That doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.
Rubbish! I get to make up as much stuff as I like, as long as I don't claim it's anything other than made-up "best guess" stuff.

I'm not claiming I know, but it seems some are claiming they do.

My point is it takes time for things to begin to happen. How could time begin to happen before there was time in which time could begin to happen?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 05:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Ad hominin attacks the best argument you got?

Oh, how droll.
Droll indeed. You appear to believe that:
A. Iím making an argument, and
B. The post fulfills the definition of an ad-hom.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:56 PM   #28
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Its a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey... stuff.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:58 PM   #29
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The process and rules that we understand as time, that makes up a necessary part of our understanding of and interaction with the reality in which we find ourselves...

... The very rules that we use to exploit time and space tell us those rules break down under certain conditions. Those same rules tell us that those conditions very likely existed in the past from which this reality emerged.

Go back far enough, and things stop making sense according to the rules we have. That's where ynot finds himself.

Obviously something must have been going on before the big bang. We just have no idea what rules govern it, or whether it's even possible for things bound by the rules of spacetime as we understand them can ever make sense of it.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.
Since nobody knows what time really is, we also don't know that the act of beginning requires time. Perhaps time is a product of the initial conditions and there was no "before."
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Did that occur in *time*?
No, it was actually ten minutes late.
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I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Oo. Oo. Let me -- God!

And I'm still placing my money on the hare not the tortoise.
God? Who is talking about a God here? No one. Strange deduction.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:14 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I can't =/= no one can

There's a lot of things I can't grasp but I don't assume my lack of understanding is universal.
So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.

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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:29 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
What are you talking about? Again? I'm new here on the forum. What 'again'?
Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
God? Who is talking about a God here? No one. Strange deduction.
What you fail to understand is that what might seem to you as a revalation is in no way unique. Your exact argument has been made a number of times on this forum and it almost always boils down to "god did it". So forum veterans are just jumping the gun.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.
So, you claim that if you don't currently understand anything, nobody can possibly understand it? That's rather arrogant of you.

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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:49 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.
No, I don't. But the point clearly went over your head.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:55 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
What you fail to understand is that what might seem to you as a revalation is in no way unique. Your exact argument has been made a number of times on this forum and it almost always boils down to "god did it". So forum veterans are just jumping the gun.
What you fail to understand is that it's not because other people made these 'exact arguments' and it boils down to 'god did it' that I'm like these other people. Non sequitur.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:56 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality.
That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.
Well, scientists tend to move past the awe phase and move right to the "We don't know but how can we find out"-phase.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:57 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by MaartenVergu View Post
What you fail to understand is that it's not because other people made these 'exact arguments' and it boils down to 'god did it' that I'm like these other people. Non sequitur.
That was not the point of my post.
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"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved?
Evolution IS a blind watchmaker
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:58 AM   #40
MaartenVergu
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So, you claim that if you don't currently understand anything, nobody can possibly understand it? That's rather arrogant of you.

Dave
It's the complete opposite of arrogance. It's recognizing that we all are small in relation to 'the universe' and its mysteries. And no. No God is mentioned here.
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