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Old 5th October 2021, 03:34 PM   #41
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Wing warping didn't last, obviously.
IMO... of far greater lasting influence was the jumpstart the Wrights gave everyone by building their small wind tunnels and meticulously examining the accepted data on wing shape and chord length/design... and showing it to be terminally in error.
Their corrected data allowed for success with the then available limited powerplants.
And a crap ton of work went into improving those once they had aircraft flying, and for sale, in front of govt reps (usually military) across the pond.
Oddly... our own govt didn't see the worth. Or had been waved off the Wright designs. Go figure.
Wing warping is just a method of roll control. It went out of fashion due to Curtiss's development of the aileron, which was simpler to implement. But roll control remains of prime importance in aircraft.
Which is not to downplay the Wright's significant contribution to aerodynamics!
"Been waved off the Wright designs" may be due to the influence of the Smithsonian, which had a hatred of the brothers that lasted into the 1940's.
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Wing warping is just a method of roll control. It went out of fashion due to Curtiss's development of the aileron, which was simpler to implement. But roll control remains of prime importance in aircraft.

Which is not to downplay the Wright's significant contribution to aerodynamics!

"Been waved off the Wright designs" may be due to the influence of the Smithsonian, which had a hatred of the brothers that lasted into the 1940's.
That last graph... I didn't want to say.
I'm a massive fan of the Smithsonian, its creation and its mission statement, but the leadership's behavior regarding first (powered HTA) flight is among their worst black marks.
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't understand this commitment to pretending good things are bad. What is it that you dislike about the F-4?
Just a quip about a 5 or 6 to 1 glide ratio.

But she's a record setting beastie when those massive burners are firing.
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Old 6th October 2021, 02:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Exactly. Control is the keyword. You can put a sufficiently powerful engine on a barn-door and it may fly, if you are lucky, but it will not be an aircraft. The Wrights made and flew an aircraft with full axis control.

Hans
Part of the difficulty is (was) getting a powerful enough engine that is also light enough.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:17 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Part of the difficulty is (was) getting a powerful enough engine that is also light enough.
Which is why the Wrights built their own. MORE innovation from Orville and Wilbur. They went onto the engine business too, selling to other airframe makers. The Wright Whirlwind? Cyclone? In 1929 they merged and became Curtiss-Wright.

They made the money to build air planes from their bicycle pedal patent. Ball bearings and right and left threads to prevent unscrewing.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:53 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Which is why the Wrights built their own. MORE innovation from Orville and Wilbur. They went onto the engine business too, selling to other airframe makers. The Wright Whirlwind? Cyclone? In 1929 they merged and became Curtiss-Wright.

They made the money to build air planes from their bicycle pedal patent. Ball bearings and right and left threads to prevent unscrewing.
Apparently Curtiss had experience with motorcycle engines. Apparently he was also much more in favor of "open-source" for these innovations. The Wrights were very much in it for the profit, and committed heavily to the patents-and-trade-secrets approach.
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Old 6th October 2021, 08:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Which is why the Wrights built their own. MORE innovation from Orville and Wilbur. They went onto the engine business too, selling to other airframe makers. The Wright Whirlwind? Cyclone? In 1929 they merged and became Curtiss-Wright.

They made the money to build air planes from their bicycle pedal patent. Ball bearings and right and left threads to prevent unscrewing.
What he said! They also developed an efficient propeller, unlike Langly.
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Old 6th October 2021, 02:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Wing warping is just a method of roll control. It went out of fashion due to Curtiss's development of the aileron, which was simpler to implement. But roll control remains of prime importance in aircraft.
What the Wrights understood better than anyone is what roll control is for. All airplanes need roll control. But the Wrights' competitors thought it was to correct unwanted roll and keep the airplane level at all times, even during turns. The Wrights understood three-axis flight control, and understood that you turned the airplane by banking into the turn.

And it wasn't the Flyer that taught them three-axis flight control. It was the glider. Much of the 1904 patent actually came from glider tests. They learned roll, pitch, and yaw as the means of controlling the airplane in flight, which was in stark contrast to the "steer it like a boat" approach some of their competitors followed.

Wing-warping is getting another serious look for high-speed aircraft. The discontinuity caused by aileron edges has implications for laminar flow across hypersonic airframes and airfoils.
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Old 6th October 2021, 02:22 PM   #49
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I can't add anything more to what's been said already, but I thought this (long) video covering the Wrights and their competitors was quite well done. The OP might want to watch it:

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Old 7th October 2021, 03:18 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
I can't add anything more to what's been said already, but I thought this (long) video covering the Wrights and their competitors was quite well done. The OP might want to watch it:



YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Nice,

But the way he pronounces Icarus, like he's never heard it aloud, odd IMO for an aviation enthusiast. Please don't tell me it's a regional US thing... makes me want to stab something.

I shall call that the "Showgirls/Versace" effect.
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Old 7th October 2021, 07:22 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
But the way he pronounces Icarus, like he's never heard it aloud, odd IMO for an aviation enthusiast. ...
Yeah, that bugged me!

I guess I can't really blame him though; I found out from the new Dune trailer that I've been pronouncing Arrakis and Atreides wrong.
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