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Old 16th October 2021, 04:28 AM   #3601
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Jan Heweliusz did not lose it's bow. It was already an unstable ship. It was already known to have ballast problems and the stability was further reduced following repairs to the upper deck which involved pouring around 100 tons of concrete to level it out.
It also sailed in hurricane force winds and far worse conditions than the Estonia.


Have you been reading.

Björkman, Anders,(2007). Estonia revisited +Learning from the often forgotten Jan Heweliusz disaster
http://estonia.kajen.com/Naval_Architect_Jan_07.pdf
Exactly, yet it floated for five days. It didn't have a bow visor to fall off.


No I haven't been reading that reference. Björkman doesn't agree with the German Group of Experts or the Estonians and believes Linde's fairy stories. Having said that, his diagrams of elementary physics principles are sound, as he is a qualified naval architect who ran his own ferry company, after all.

I am capable of thinking for myself, thank you.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:31 AM   #3602
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is because they sink because


  • the vessel collides with another ship, submarine or heavy object
  • the vessel has been topredoed
  • the vessel is hit by the one-in-ten super wave swell causing it to break in half
  • the vessel hits a natural disaster such as a hurricane which causes a deadly whirlpool
  • water gets into the ventilation pipes
  • a terrorist act such as the USS Cole.




The JAIC assumed the windows on Deck 4 (the upper car deck) had broken allowing ingress of sea water to accommodation areas. Yet Kurm has found the windowed doors of the car deck completely intact, unbroken and shut. Further investigation is needed but it suggests the JAIC assumption is wrong. Based on a false premise.
Ships sink because they fill with water. The report suggests the windows on deck 4 broke due to pressure when they were underwater, speeding the flooding. You think these windows were impregnable because it doesn't suit you to believe they weren't. Doors leading off the car deck on the side to which the ship was not listing are not relevant to its flooding.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:37 AM   #3603
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Two doors out of how many openings to the lower decks?

You do realise that there are a number of passenger doors from the car deck as well as crew access, ventilators and various air intakes and exhausts.
Once the ship had a list other openings would be below the surface.
Various citations suggest sixteen doors, or four. Bearing in mind these are sliding doors, the discrepancy may in part refer the one set being described as two doors. In addition, it may also refer to the end doors for staff only. The car deck extended the length and athwartships (circa 155m x 24m beam)

This is what the JAIC rely on: that when the ship was floating at 90° on its superstructure (this is an intellectual error as a ship cannot float on its superstructure) the water pressure burst the windows, thus flooding the superstructure spaces.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:39 AM   #3604
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Exactly so an overturned boat doesn't sink straight to the bottom by your own account.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. Swoop is saying it's hard to go from upright to upside down (without sinking the dinghy in between?). You think he means it's hard to right a flipped dinghy.

Swoop can tell me if I'm the one misunderstanding.

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Old 16th October 2021, 04:40 AM   #3605
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A sailing dinghy has sealed buoyancy tanks or inflated 'bladders' strapped in to the hull to stop it sinking otherwise it will sink straigh to the bottom.

https://i.imgur.com/bYZPKDnl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZA4cqZll.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Iqz1pz2l.jpg
None of these illustrate how the Estonia sank. The Estonia sank in a remarkably similar way to the Wilhelm Gustloff except that the latter sank bow first and also face down.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:44 AM   #3606
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Various citations suggest sixteen doors, or four. Bearing in mind these are sliding doors, the discrepancy may in part refer the one set being described as two doors. In addition, it may also refer to the end doors for staff only. The car deck extended the length and athwartships (circa 155m x 24m beam)



This is what the JAIC rely on: that when the ship was floating at 90° on its superstructure (this is an intellectual error as a ship cannot float on its superstructure) the water pressure burst the windows, thus flooding the superstructure spaces.
The ship was 24m wide. The car deck was not 24m wide, otherwise its doors would have deposited passengers into the sea.

I love that "intellectual error" crap. You stuff words into people's mouths which they never used then tell us they're wrong. It's exasperating but still kinda funny.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:45 AM   #3607
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The Jan Heweliusz was already unstable, there were concerns over it's ballasting and the topweight added by repairs.

Water did not enter the car deck, it capsized in a storm because it was an unstable ship. It was in hurricane conditions and turned over quickly without extensive flooding.

As I keep saying, different ships sink for different reasons.
The Estonia also had problems with its ballasts (water tanks) because of uneven distribution of the traffic inside the car deck (NB the JAIC say it was properly loaded). Even before it left port, the left hand ballast was full to the top. Thus when the starboard list started shortly after the series of bangs was heard/collision felt, there was no room in the left ballast for more water to right the list.

You keep saying the Jan Heweliusz was worse than the Estonia in numerous different ways yet it did not sink for five days.


Estonia sank within about half an hour.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:45 AM   #3608
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No I haven't been reading that reference. Björkman doesn't agree with the German Group of Experts or the Estonians and believes Linde's fairy stories. Having said that, his diagrams of elementary physics principles are sound, as he is a qualified naval architect who ran his own ferry company, after all.
In his days 'discussing' 9/11 CT here he stated he was a loss adjuster in maritime insurance. What ferry company did he own, as a matter of interest?

He was also a notable fraud, claiming to run the 'European agency for safety at sea', while using the EU flag logo to advertise it. The EU denied any knowledge of the agency and, I believe, took action to stop him using their logo. His 'agency' operated (?) out of a 2 bedroom flat in a backstreet in Beausoleil.

As for his knowledge of physics ... **giggle** ... the man is a fool and a liar.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:46 AM   #3609
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It san, it did not turn over.
It capsized.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:47 AM   #3610
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What about them?
The buoyancy of the green bits = support for the upper parts of the ship + its cargo and passengers.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:48 AM   #3611
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Did they inspect two doors under all the car deck debris on the relevant side of the ship, or two doors on the accessible but irrelevant side?
These were centre doors midships. Bear in mind, they were not expecting to see this so now they know about it they will return in Spring to investigate it further.

Why do you consider the centre doors 'irrelevant'?
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:50 AM   #3612
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How big do you think the machinery and pool spaces are?

What percentage of the reserve buoyancy do they represent??

How much water was already in the hull when the order to secure openings came?

How do you know the status of all the openings in the ship?

How do you know the condition of all the pipe and cable glands that run through compartments?

Did the last person out of every compartment make sure the openings were all securely dogged?

Were all the compartments watertight from above?

Unlike a warship where every compartment below the waterline only has access from above, on a ferry or merchant ship there are openings between the compartments.

Even on navy ships doors and hatches don't always get correctly closed when evacuating a compartment. I can link you to a document that details how flooding progressed through warships in WW2.
A surprisingly large amount of flooding was due to unsecured openings and badly packed or neglected glands on pipes and cable runs.
Be that as it may, the JAIC said the only part of the ship that was involved in the accident was the bow area. It investigated nothing else.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:51 AM   #3613
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Various citations suggest sixteen doors, or four. Bearing in mind these are sliding doors, the discrepancy may in part refer the one set being described as two doors. In addition, it may also refer to the end doors for staff only. The car deck extended the length and athwartships (circa 155m x 24m beam)

This is what the JAIC rely on: that when the ship was floating at 90° on its superstructure (this is an intellectual error as a ship cannot float on its superstructure) the water pressure burst the windows, thus flooding the superstructure spaces.
Do you think there is a reason that large windows are not near the waterline of ships? or that any portholes near the waterline have steel 'deadlights' on the inside that can be bolted down over the glass?
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:53 AM   #3614
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because ships sink when they fill with water.
The Estonia car deck did not have enough volume capacity for seawater ingress to outweigh the buoyancy. A heavy list might have capsized it, sure, but it would have floated belly up like the JH.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:53 AM   #3615
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Estonia also had problems with its ballasts (water tanks) because of uneven distribution of the traffic inside the car deck (NB the JAIC say it was properly loaded). Even before it left port, the left hand ballast was full to the top. Thus when the starboard list started shortly after the series of bangs was heard/collision felt, there was no room in the left ballast for more water to right the list.

You keep saying the Jan Heweliusz was worse than the Estonia in numerous different ways yet it did not sink for five days.


Estonia sank within about half an hour.
It had less stability than Estonia, it turned over without extensive flooding.

We know that the bad trim of the ship contributed to Estonia sinking.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:55 AM   #3616
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because you were claiming the ship was torpedoed so I showed you pictures of torpedoed ships.
Find me one of a torpedoed ship floating upside down if you can.


Wilhelm Gustloff took 40 minutes to turn on her side after being torpedoed, then it sank bow-first ten minutes later.
It did not turn turtle and float for any length of time.
My mistake it sank bow first - as opposed to Estonia stern first - with over 9,000 people still trapped inside, and only slightly heavier than the Estonia. No, it did not turn turtle and nor did the Estonia.

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Old 16th October 2021, 04:58 AM   #3617
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Bows falling off explain the rapid sinking.
The bow falling off in itself doesn't cause rapid sinking.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:58 AM   #3618
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Be that as it may, the JAIC said the only part of the ship that was involved in the accident was the bow area. It investigated nothing else.
Because the bow fell off.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:58 AM   #3619
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
How? Lots of ships suffer collisions and don't sink. It's the damage, not the fact of a collision which would matter.
That's a different issue.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:59 AM   #3620
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Estonia car deck did not have enough volume capacity for seawater ingress to outweigh the buoyancy. A heavy list might have capsized it, sure, but it would have floated belly up like the JH.
Who has said that the water on the car deck would 'outweigh the buoyancy'?

Why would it have floated belly up?
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:00 AM   #3621
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Estonia also had problems with its ballasts (water tanks) because of uneven distribution of the traffic inside the car deck (NB the JAIC say it was properly loaded). Even before it left port, the left hand ballast was full to the top. Thus when the starboard list started shortly after the series of bangs was heard/collision felt, there was no room in the left ballast for more water to right the list.
Would a competent professional captain have sailed in that condition?


Quote:

You keep saying the Jan Heweliusz was worse than the Estonia in numerous different ways yet it did not sink for five days.





Estonia sank within about half an hour.
It sank without its bow door coming off and letting it flood. That's worse right there.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:00 AM   #3622
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The bow falling off in itself doesn't cause rapid sinking.
It was the flooding caused by the bow falling off that caused the sinking.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:02 AM   #3623
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Ships sink because they fill with water. The report suggests the windows on deck 4 broke due to pressure when they were underwater, speeding the flooding. You think these windows were impregnable because it doesn't suit you to believe they weren't. Doors leading off the car deck on the side to which the ship was not listing are not relevant to its flooding.
Really? If so, how come the Estonia capsized then if by your account 'it sank as soon as it filled with water' like those pictures posted by LondonJohn of boat race rowers.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:04 AM   #3624
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The ship was 24m wide. The car deck was not 24m wide, otherwise its doors would have deposited passengers into the sea.

I love that "intellectual error" crap. You stuff words into people's mouths which they never used then tell us they're wrong. It's exasperating but still kinda funny.
Ladies do not 'stuff' or 'shove'.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:05 AM   #3625
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
These were centre doors midships. Bear in mind, they were not expecting to see this so now they know about it they will return in Spring to investigate it further.



Why do you consider the centre doors 'irrelevant'?
On which side?

I have made it repeatedly clear why I consider the doors on the side of the ship through which it did not flood to be irrelevant to the progress of its flooding. Which part of it still confuses you?
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:05 AM   #3626
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? If so, how come the Estonia capsized then if by your account 'it sank as soon as it filled with water' like those pictures posted by LondonJohn of boat race rowers.
Because Estonia had flooding on the car deck and free surface effect (already covered at great length) made the water flood to the lower side as the ship rolled, that took it past it's point of recovery.
We have been through this in detail a number of times already.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:09 AM   #3627
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Would a competent professional captain have sailed in that condition?




It sank without its bow door coming off and letting it flood. That's worse right there.
Yet it floated belly up for five days - obeying the laws of physics (Archimedes Principle, just so you know what to look up).
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:09 AM   #3628
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It was the flooding caused by the bow falling off that caused the sinking.
That by itself cannot sink a ship in half an hour.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:12 AM   #3629
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
On which side?

I have made it repeatedly clear why I consider the doors on the side of the ship through which it did not flood to be irrelevant to the progress of its flooding. Which part of it still confuses you?
I am assuming 'centre doors' refer to doors that lead to the centre stairs that lead to the centre lobby. See diagram showing decks 0 - 5.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:12 AM   #3630
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yet it floated belly up for five days - obeying the laws of physics (Archimedes Principle, just so you know what to look up).
Can you explain which of these 'laws of physics' applies?

What is the 'Archimedes principle'?

It floated for 5 days because it capsized without flooding due to it's already known problems with stability.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:13 AM   #3631
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That by itself cannot sink a ship in half an hour.
Why not?
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:14 AM   #3632
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am assuming 'centre doors' refer to doors that lead to the centre stairs that lead to the centre lobby. See diagram showing decks 0 - 5.
So you don't know?

Why assume?

Did they penetrate that far in to the car deck?
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:14 AM   #3633
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because Estonia had flooding on the car deck and free surface effect (already covered at great length) made the water flood to the lower side as the ship rolled, that took it past it's point of recovery.
We have been through this in detail a number of times already.
...at which point it should have turned belly up, just like the MS Jan Heweliusz but it sank to the bottom of the sea instead, in record time.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:18 AM   #3634
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? If so, how come the Estonia capsized then if by your account 'it sank as soon as it filled with water' like those pictures posted by LondonJohn of boat race rowers.
There you go with more unladylike stuffing of words into people's mouths. Estonia's car deck flooded because the bow door came off and damaged the ramp too. That flooding destabilise the ship making it list, and progressive flooding increased the list and that increased the flooding until it ran out of reserve buoyancy and sank by the stern. The end.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:18 AM   #3635
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why not?
It had a car ramp of limited capacity, which itself was above the water line. The crew confirmed the car ramp was shut.

Kurm appears to have discovered that the car deck was sealed off after all (the centre doors are completely intact, firmly shut and not damaged in any way).
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:19 AM   #3636
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That by itself cannot sink a ship in half an hour.
Obviously wrong as it sank HOFE in a very few minutes.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:20 AM   #3637
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So you don't know?

Why assume?

Did they penetrate that far in to the car deck?
Kurm specifically says 'centre doors'.


Quote:
In the case of the investigation of the car deck, Kurm once again pointed out the fact that the two passenger doors in its central section were closed. Kurm explained that the discovery is important because previous simulations have assumed that the doors broke.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:20 AM   #3638
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The ship was 24m wide. The car deck was not 24m wide, otherwise its doors would have deposited passengers into the sea.

I love that "intellectual error" crap. You stuff words into people's mouths which they never used then tell us they're wrong. It's exasperating but still kinda funny.
Access to the lower hull and superstructure are along the centre line of the ship.
There is a midships division of the car deck along it's length in the waist of the ship. This houses all the stairs, exhausts, plumbing and electrical ducting etc.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:21 AM   #3639
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Kurm specifically says 'centre doors'.
All the doors off the car deck are along the centre of the ship. Which 'centre doors' does he mean?
Why not use a proper term for them?
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:21 AM   #3640
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...at which point it should have turned belly up, just like the MS Jan Heweliusz but it sank to the bottom of the sea instead, in record time.
Why should it have turned belly up when there was flooding in the hull?
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